Appreciate some input on spark plug reading

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Newbomb Turk said:
Let me see if I follow your logic here…

You think the area around the plug is lean. So lean it won’t color the plug.
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If you understood the basics of combustion and chemistry you would understand that any AFR below 14.7 would leave free carbons to find they're way onto the spark plug during combustion due to the heat and pressure generated at ignition time.

Newbomb Turk said:
I’m on the phone with the best people in the country and they agree with me.
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Considering Bruce Robertson and Larry Widmer could run engines into the 20+ to 1 compression and other guys like them pushing the boundaries in this area aren't answering you phone calls.
 
Hysteric said:
If you understood the basics of combustion and chemistry you would understand that any AFR below 14.7 would leave free carbons to find they're way onto the spark plug during combustion due to the heat and pressure generated at ignition time.


Considering Bruce Robertson and Larry Widmer could run engines into the 20+ to 1 compression and other guys like them pushing the boundaries in this area aren't answering you phone calls.
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Word salad. Do you ever make anything run to show your work?

I couldn’t care less what Bruce or Larry do.

I know you can’t tune. You repeat what you read and take it as gospel.
 
Hysteric said:
Its called science.......


What does that have to do with the established science.........


Intelligent people learn from the best in the game.......
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The issue is you don’t know because you worship Shrinker and anyone else who makes bullshit claims
 
Hysteric said:
If you understood the basics of combustion and chemistry you would understand that any AFR below 14.7 would leave free carbons to find they're way onto the spark plug during combustion due to the heat and pressure generated at ignition time.


Considering Bruce Robertson and Larry Widmer could run engines into the 20+ to 1 compression and other guys like them pushing the boundaries in this area aren't answering you phone calls.
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Here you go. Show me where all this free carbon is.

IMG_0953.jpeg
 
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Newbomb Turk said:
Here you go. Show me where all this free carbon is.
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How can you not have free carbon if there isn't enough oxygen for it to bind to?

Measuring Stoichiometric Combustion Processes

In any combustion process, an amount of oxygen reacts with an amount of fuel. If the amount of oxygen exactly matches the amount of fuel, combustion is complete. This is called stoichiometric combustion.

When there is a shortage of oxygen, combustion is incomplete and a mixture remains that still contains fuel. That is combustible. With this incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons, not only carbon dioxide but also toxic carbon monoxide remains. A shortage of oxygen is therefore inefficient and dangerous.

An excess of oxygen results in soot formation, which causes problems with emission requirements. A second disadvantage of too much oxygen is that the air is heated. This is at the cost of process energy and therefore less efficient. Controlling the combustion process to keep the chemical reaction stoichiometric is therefore very important.
 
Hysteric said:
How can you not have free carbon if there isn't enough oxygen for it to bind to?

Measuring Stoichiometric Combustion Processes

In any combustion process, an amount of oxygen reacts with an amount of fuel. If the amount of oxygen exactly matches the amount of fuel, combustion is complete. This is called stoichiometric combustion.

When there is a shortage of oxygen, combustion is incomplete and a mixture remains that still contains fuel. That is combustible. With this incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons, not only carbon dioxide but also toxic carbon monoxide remains. A shortage of oxygen is therefore inefficient and dangerous.

An excess of oxygen results in soot formation, which causes problems with emission requirements. A second disadvantage of too much oxygen is that the air is heated. This is at the cost of process energy and therefore less efficient. Controlling the combustion process to keep the chemical reaction stoichiometric is therefore very important.
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Once again, you don’t have a clue. I’m not going to bother trying to explain it.

Look at the chart again. You aren’t smarter than Obert.

Of course you have the Obert book so on page 316 in the second edition. Get your book out, look at it close and then show me where all the free carbon is that makes a lean condition look rich??
 
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Newbomb Turk said:
Get your book out, look at it close and then show me where all the free carbon is that makes a lean condition look rich??
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Where not talking about Lean mixtures looking Rich we're talking about Rich mixtures having excess Carbon to Air ratios which means there's not enough carbon to bond to the lack of oxygen. That means there's more Carbon than there is oxygen.

If its not Rich enough around the plug at ignition time IT CANT POSSIBLY TAN A PLUG IRRESPECTIVE of the AFR you give to the Cylinder.
 
Hysteric said:
Where not talking about Lean mixtures looking Rich we're talking about Rich mixtures having excess Carbon to Air ratios which means there's not enough carbon to bond to the lack of oxygen. That means there's more Carbon than there is oxygen.

If its not Rich enough around the plug at ignition time IT CANT POSSIBLY TAN A PLUG IRRESPECTIVE of the AFR you give to the Cylinder.
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Ok. You can’t explain the chart. Got it.

Move along.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Ok. You can’t explain the chart. Got it.
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Don't need to. Its very well established in the field of Chemistry what Stoichiometry is.

That's why there's different Lambdas for different fuels.......You can be on either side of stoich either rich or lean depending on the AFR of different fuels.

You can give an engine a rich mixture and the BURN can still be lean.
 
Hysteric said:
Don't need to. Its very well established in the field of Chemistry what Stoichiometry is.

That's why there's different Lambdas for different fuels.......You can be on either side of stoich either rich or lean depending on the AFR of different fuels.

You can give an engine a rich mixture and the BURN can still be lean.
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Ok. I know what stoichiometry is.

There is Lambda and it reads the same for ALL fuels. So you are wrong. Again.

So what you want everyone to believe that when the plug is lean, but the burn is rich and the plugs have no color but its rich. Is that what you are saying?

I can't even come close to your mixed up nonsense. If the plug looks fat and you take away fuel and it picks up power, how does that jive with what you are saying? It doesn't.

If it's rich and I take away fuel and it makes power, it's rich. Regardless of plug color. If it's rich and I add fuel and it loses power, what does that tell YOU?

You can't have it both ways. You want lean on the plug (no color) and rich overall. Maybe, if the plug is real hot and you are blowing 1000 HP worth of fuel through a 500 horse engine.

The plugs I posted above are DEAD fat. Adding fuel took away power. Taking away fuel made power.

Therefore its rich. And yet and still you argue.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Ok. I know what stoichiometry is.
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If you did then you would understand that there's not enough for all the Carbons and Oxygen molecules to pair up. That means there's excess Carbon to find its way onto the plug.

Newbomb Turk said:
There is Lambda and it reads the same for ALL fuels. So you are wrong. Again.
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Lambda is different for different fuels.

Using Lambda to Determine Air/Fuel Ratio

The result of the calculation is the ‘Lambda’ (l) a dimensionless term that relates nicely to the stoichiometric value of air to fuel. At the stoichiometric point, Lambda = 1.000. A Lambda value of 1.050 is 5.0% lean, and a Lambda value of 0.950 is 5.0% rich. Once Lambda is calculated, A/F ratio can be easily determined by simply multiplying Lambda times the stoichiometric A/F ratio for the fuel used – e.g. 14.71 for gasoline, 15.87 for LPG, and 17.45 for CNG.

Newbomb Turk said:
So what you want everyone to believe that when the plug is lean, but the burn is rich and the plugs have no color but its rich. Is that what you are saying?
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So you still think an O2 sensor tells you the AFR in different parts of the cylinder? Maybe if you hung out at Innovates Forum or spent enough time there Bruce clearly explained how AFR isn't AFR because it reads the combustion after the fact. Nor does it tell you what the HC ppm is and the Carbon gas balance.

I can change a plug read to make it look Fat Azz with out changing the AFR one bit. So if the AFR I give the engine didn't change then how can it look BLACK...........

Let me know when you figure it out.
 
Hysteric said:
If you did then you would understand that there's not enough for all the Carbons and Oxygen molecules to pair up. That means there's excess Carbon to find its way onto the plug.


Lambda is different for different fuels.

Using Lambda to Determine Air/Fuel Ratio

The result of the calculation is the ‘Lambda’ (l) a dimensionless term that relates nicely to the stoichiometric value of air to fuel. At the stoichiometric point, Lambda = 1.000. A Lambda value of 1.050 is 5.0% lean, and a Lambda value of 0.950 is 5.0% rich. Once Lambda is calculated, A/F ratio can be easily determined by simply multiplying Lambda times the stoichiometric A/F ratio for the fuel used – e.g. 14.71 for gasoline, 15.87 for LPG, and 17.45 for CNG.


So you still think an O2 sensor tells you the AFR in different parts of the cylinder? Maybe if you hung out at Innovates Forum or spent enough time there Bruce clearly explained how AFR isn't AFR because it reads the combustion after the fact. Nor does it tell you what the HC ppm is and the Carbon gas balance.

I can change a plug read to make it look Fat Azz with out changing the AFR one bit. So if the AFR I give the engine didn't change then how can it look BLACK...........

Let me know when you figure it out.
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lol. You moved the goal posts because you don’t have an answer.

Again, I don’t live and die by the O2 sensor. I know they can lie. So get that out of your thick head.

I love it when you quote Shrinker and take it totally out of context. And he’s not God. He may be your god but not mine.

Again I ask you the simple question. Your bullshit arguement is that this engine is really rich but it’s lean at the plug so they have no color.

To that end, adding fuel to get color on the plug made it lose power. So your fix is what? Leave it pig rich?

Oh I know…one of your old tricks is run a smaller carb(s). Oh wait. They are already way too small for this engine. It can’t be that.

Or, I could figure a way to heat the intake manifold. But that’s a sure fire power loser.

Or, maybe, just maybe you are talking out of your ***.

I’m out. You are too stupid to carry on with. You’d do well to shut your mouth when it comes to this subject. You couldn’t be more wrong
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Your bullshit arguement is that this engine is really rich but it’s lean at the plug so they have no color.
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I'll say it again: I can change 1 variable and it will make the plugs read REALLY RICH when I haven't changed the AFR at all. The can go from Tan before to Black after and I haven't touched the carb.

Its still metering the same Air and Fuel mixture but its now Rich.......Or is it?
 
Hysteric said:
I'll say it again: I can change 1 variable and it will make the plugs read REALLY RICH when I haven't changed the AFR at all. The can go from Tan before to Black after and I haven't touched the carb.

Its still metering the same Air and Fuel mixture but its now Rich.......Or is it?
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Name three of these variables and then tell me which one would have the most profound effect.
 
Hysteric said:
If you did then you would understand that there's not enough for all the Carbons and Oxygen molecules to pair up. That means there's excess Carbon to find its way onto the plug.


Lambda is different for different fuels.

Using Lambda to Determine Air/Fuel Ratio

The result of the calculation is the ‘Lambda’ (l) a dimensionless term that relates nicely to the stoichiometric value of air to fuel. At the stoichiometric point, Lambda = 1.000. A Lambda value of 1.050 is 5.0% lean, and a Lambda value of 0.950 is 5.0% rich. Once Lambda is calculated, A/F ratio can be easily determined by simply multiplying Lambda times the stoichiometric A/F ratio for the fuel used – e.g. 14.71 for gasoline, 15.87 for LPG, and 17.45 for CNG.


So you still think an O2 sensor tells you the AFR in different parts of the cylinder? Maybe if you hung out at Innovates Forum or spent enough time there Bruce clearly explained how AFR isn't AFR because it reads the combustion after the fact. Nor does it tell you what the HC ppm is and the Carbon gas balance.

I can change a plug read to make it look Fat Azz with out changing the AFR one bit. So if the AFR I give the engine didn't change then how can it look BLACK...........

Let me know when you figure it out.
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Just for the record the only time you have more carbon than oxygen is when you get soot.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Just for the record the only time you have more carbon than oxygen is when you get soot.
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Not true. Any time you have a richer than stoich mixture you have excess carbon.

Newbomb Turk said:
Which variable? It’s your bullshit. At least tell us how’d you’d do it.
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Go figure it out......Go through all the Shrinker files and piece it together.
 
Hysteric said:
Sorry but you ignorant combative style doesn't endear me to wanting to just give you simple answers although I already have......

Get to work.
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Grow some balls there big boy. Did I question your bullshit and cause you butthurt?

You won’t answer because you can’t.
 
Here ya go, think about these statements:

"When you measure the AFR of an engine and its in the 12's and the plug is white well then you have a vaporization issue like what Im talking about. Its not uncommon, in fact its the norm."
And

"The problem Im talking about isnt fixed with the carby. You may tune the carby so the engines runs good etc but what im talking about is not tuning a carby. A simple thing to undetand that most people dont observe is this. Anytime a substantially richer than stoichiometric mixture is burnt carbon must be deposited. What this means is if the mixture around the plug is rich then there should be carbon on the plug. Thats what the TAN coloring is. When the plug is white then it means that the mixture around the plug is lean of stoich. The condition of the mixture around the plug at ignition time is critical. If the engine doesnt gas enough of the fuel load at ignition time then the mixture around the plug will be lean of stoich, or leaner than the average of the chamber. When you swap carbys between engines, you get to see the differences between engines in how they energize the fuel prior to ignition. If one engine gives a different plug read to the other then thats what you are primarily observing, the difference in the combination's energy input to the fuel."

Good Luck....
 
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