Balancer?
- Thread starter Icetech
- Start date
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Bobzilla
Well-Known Member
Maybe revisit the Fluidamper. The real ones, not a clone or copy from other manufacturers. I thought Fluidamper finally made the recess so pulley alignment is correct on these Mopar dampers. Check to be sure though, in case I am mixing up details.
65TerrorCuda
Well-Known Member
I've got this guy, yeah it's rubber and the ring can slip after 15+ years. The ring is captured and can't fly off. Same pulley alignment as 1965 273. Has a bolt-on weight to let it do external balance cranks. Been on my blown engine since late 2000's.
Pro Race Products Pro Sport Harmonic Balancer
There's this one too, but that's a bunch of clams, and I think all they did was weld the ring solid instead of use screws and lock tite.
https://www.classicindustries.com/product/mn2720.html?msockid=3c976c617e756f4220d67cc77f486ed4
Pro Race Products Pro Sport Harmonic Balancer
There's this one too, but that's a bunch of clams, and I think all they did was weld the ring solid instead of use screws and lock tite.
https://www.classicindustries.com/product/mn2720.html?msockid=3c976c617e756f4220d67cc77f486ed4
Icetech
Well-Known Member
Yeah pro race is the one mancini sells. They have a street and race version
Pm sent
MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
I've never thought about that. Makes me want to check temps on it now, then compared to the fluids temp stability or flash point..but i think junk yards will have them. I believe they became stock in some cars.Did buy a power steering cooler though.. will see if that shows up and is usable
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Icetech
Well-Known Member
i wasn't going to.. my setup is a new bergman kit.. i went for a 20 min ride on a 65 degree day and my pump was 180 degrees (thermal gun) so.. i figure on a 80 degree day it would be over 200..
BUT..i have 4.30 gears so i'm like 3k+ all the time
340six
King Of Bling
Icetech, I have to ask why you picked the TCI Rattler. Not looking to sell mine but I have a new in box one on the self at least 20 yyears.i got it with a parts deal years ago. Along with a new in box Summit Aussie made one. Was deciding on what of the 2 to use on my 422ci street motor. As same as you did not want fully misaligned.
Icetech
Well-Known Member
the main reason, no fluid/rubber/clutches.. also read up on the technology and it supposedly works across the entire rpm range not just an area. Also.... something else i'm blanking on
Icetech
Well-Known Member
at this point i just am going to put it back together and worry bout a balancer when i do the new motor.. I have had like 30 old mopars but this one has been the worst pain in the *** of them all.. which is funny since i have the most money into it
You'd be surprised what a stock dampener is good for. My late machinist said you only need aftermarket units for the Mopar stuff on dedicated race engines and the stock units are good for the low side of 7000 rpm all day. He put them on stroker LA and B/RB street strip engines and never had any failures.
Innovators West #301
Icetech
Well-Known Member
pulleys don't line up
Icetech
Well-Known Member
I have no problem with a stock one, but it's 40 year old rubber in there now is all. i'm just gonna run it on this motor for now though. Waiting to see if this place is gonna refund me or what though
Icetech
Well-Known Member
sooo.. i been all pissed off for hours waiting for a fight about this... i sent the email through ebay about the issue and the place had a return label and refund setup within 10 minutes.. no questions, no hassle... kinda ruined my rage buildup
BTW.. i don't buy on ebay pretty much ever.. but 100% rating with over 10k sales is pretty amazing.. Problems happen with every company, it's how they deal with problems that matters..
this was through the carburetor shop in MN..
BTW.. i don't buy on ebay pretty much ever.. but 100% rating with over 10k sales is pretty amazing.. Problems happen with every company, it's how they deal with problems that matters..
this was through the carburetor shop in MN..
There's nothing wrong with that for street duty car.
The Dorman brand will work well for 99% of the builds out there
340six
King Of Bling
My uncle sent his hard to find FORD one off to have rebuilt. I can ask him who did it. Was some place he used quite a long time. He found them in the Hemmings magazine back when it was still paper. So they were in biz long time.
So don't toss the Old ones out for scrap.
So don't toss the Old ones out for scrap.
Damn…thats too bad. That damper is at the TOP of my list and I would recommend it 100% except for the fact that it rattles when you shut the engine off.
Some guys don’t have the gumption or whatever to tell the rail birds, bubble gummers and whiz bang isn gym shorts types of guys that that is what it SHOULD do.
If you study pendulum dampers you can see the benefits. But it makes that noise and it’s not as cheap to produce.
If I could find one I’d test it on the dyno to see what it does.
Fluidamper or Innovators West is 2 and 3 and you can swap places with them.
Then get a Fluidamper. The new ones have a recessed face and don’t have alignment issues.
Chrysler covered this in the last engine book they produced.
The recommend the FD.
I don’t use a elastomer damper if I can absolutely avoid it. They have a very narrow range to dampen and they decrease as soon as they are built.
If you do a YouTube search for videos with Randy Neil of…damn it…I can’t think of the name of his company off the top of my head fright now but he has some in-depth stuff on torsional vibration and controlling it.
CW balancers I believe is his company.
If you are using stock rods, pistons, crank and you are staying with the rpm the engine came with from the factory then you can get by with the OE damper or it’s equivalent.
If you change one of those things or multiples of them the OE damper is not tuned to deal with the differences is torsional vibrations like it should.
Crank materiel (1018 OE stuff verses 4340 verses cast) makes a huge difference is the order and amplitude of the vibrations.
Rod and piston materiel and weight ave the same effect.
I’ve told this story before and I hate repeating but it’s worth is.
In 1990 I built a stock stroke, aluminum rod 14:1 alcohol engine for my car. Shift rpm was 8500 and trap rpm was 9000ish.
I forgotten what the bob weight was but it was incredibly light for what it would be with steel rods.
I spent about two months on my time off going to the library, researching what I could find on torsional vibrations like it and things like that.
That’s when I first learned that any change in any part of the engine that deviated from OE, which is what the OE dampers are tuned for made the damper essentially ineffective. And where it would be the most ineffective took some serious math to sort out, plus you needed things like the modulus of elasticity and a bunch of other data that is still rather hard to find today.
Anyway, the upshot was I knew that I was making enough power at an RPM far higher than OE with parts that were far from OE that a damper I needed would need to be tuned for my combination.
This is the era of NHRA making rules on dampers because several things were happening.
RPM was going up. Stroke lengths were getting longer. And 4340 cranks were beginning to be the norm and it the exception to the rule.
That was causing dampers to fail so NHRA mandated dampers and met or exceeded an SFI test.
Of course, a solid aluminum hub would pass the SFT test, but it would kill a crank and block so fast your head would spin.
I decided to call ATI to order a damper. I tell the dude on the phone what I’m doing and he tells me a part number. So I politely asked him how his off the shelf damper was tuned for what I was doing.
He said it doesn’t matter. I knew he was full of **** so I passed on that and bought a FD.
By the end of the 1990’s it because CLEAR why all the top teams were using an ATI damper. NHRA Pro Stock and Comp guys, the ASScar crowd, road race stuff…all of that high end racing had ATI dampers.
The upshot is (and this came from the mouth straight to my ear from a multi time NHRA championship winning Pro Stock engine builder so I trust my source) that all those teams are either paying ATI to custom tune the damper for their application OR, the very well funded teams (so probably 98% of Pro Stock and 100% of ASScar) have engineers that either consult with these teams to correctly tune a damper of they have the engineers on staff to do it for them.
Since it is relatively easy to change the tune in an ATI damper that is what they use as a base.
For those of us who don’t walk on water and don’t get that kind of support from ATI and can’t pay for the engineering to tune a damper, we need something that has the widest tuning range we can get.
That is not any type of elastomer damper.
Sorry for the long post but it’s worth noting that a damper isnt just a damper.
TLDR; dont use an elastomer damper if you have anything but OE parts.
Icetech
Well-Known Member
Will check out those videos tomorrow
My 75 F250 has a factory one.
Too bad they don't make one for the slant 6. lol
RPM isn't what gets a balancer. You can rev a dead stock one as far up as the engine can stand.....and if it's a GOOD QUALITY stock one, it will be fine. What gets balancers is the SUDDEN change in RPM from a very high performance engine. Inertia is the property of an object to remain unchanged. So, when an engine idling along at 850 RPM suddenly changes RPM to WOT for example, that can kill balancers, ESPECIALLY if that engine is a wild child with lots of compression, big induction, exhaust, a good hot ignition curve and loose converter. That's when things can go sideways even with a good quality stock converter. And there have been rare instances where balancers "explode" from RPM, but that's almost always from some kind of defect in the metallurgy or "some such". The instant RPM change is normally what gets them. Even a 68 340 is slow to rev by race engine standards.
MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
Ya know i thought they did.
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