Best Coilover IFS for '71 duster?

-
Oh.. Just saying you seem to build good stuff from what your buyers say... and that if you get that 4 link system built and start selling it then it'll be tough for guys running other set-ups to compete with cars running yours. And good luck on the designs you are currently working on. (guess that sounded funny sorry.. forgot the comma between "setups" and "will")#-o
 
Ride up to my house four hours from you s nd I will take you out in my duster. I have been on both sides of the fence. The RMS side is better all the way around.

Horse puckey.

All suspension design is a trade off, plain and simple. Coilovers aren't magic, they have issues too. There are just as many disadvantages as advantages.

I'm glad that you've found success with the RMS system. But that doesn't mean a coilover set up is inherently better. With proper tuning a torsion bar system can be just as effective. It's just physics.
 
Oh.. Just saying you seem to build good stuff from what your buyers say... and that if you get that 4 link system built and start selling it then it'll be tough for guys running other set-ups to compete with cars running yours. And good luck on the designs you are currently working on. (guess that sounded funny sorry.. forgot the comma between "setups" and "will")#-o

Thanks for the confidence.

No sweat .....the reason a lot of my posts are edited is because 5 minutes after I post something.....even I can not understand what I'm trying to say.
 
Horse puckey.

All suspension design is a trade off, plain and simple. Coilovers aren't magic, they have issues too. There are just as many disadvantages as advantages.

I'm glad that you've found success with the RMS system. But that doesn't mean a coilover set up is inherently better. With proper tuning a torsion bar system can be just as effective. It's just physics.
What exactly are the disadvantages? I need Facts/Numbers not trying to put you on the spot, but you and Denny seem to be the guys who understand the geometry of these cars.
 
What exactly are the disadvantages? I need Facts/Numbers not trying to put you on the spot, but you and Denny seem to be the guys who understand the geometry of these cars.

They add unsprung weight. They are not as efficient in handling applied loads, because the coilovers are mounted at an angle which translates forces in two planes and changes how the suspension reacts as the control arms move through their arc. Once the ride height has been set it's more problematic for the geometry to change it significantly. They apply forces to an areas of the chassis that were not in any way designed to carry it. They move the weight of the suspension higher on the car.

For numbers I'd need to have a suspension analysis program and the dimensions of the coilover systems. But adding a different type of suspension to a chassis that was not designed for it places some significant compromises into the design. Control arm length, mounting points etc are usually pretty limited, and that obviously has an effect on camber curves etc. Not to mention that the chassis of our cars was designed to car the suspension loads in the K frame and crossmember, not the rails and uprights.

Again, I'm not saying that torsion bars are a superior system, or that coilovers are the scourge of the Earth. Each system has advantages and disadvantages. I think by far the biggest advantages of the coilovers is their ability to be tuned. There are by far more spring and shock combinations available with coilovers. They also provide a lot more space under the car, and overall tend to remove weight, even if they raise the location of some of that weight on the car. And of course the use of a steering rack instead of a box is a decided advantage. More options, no rebuilt boxes with worn gears, less weight, better feel, etc.

But, even though the tuning options are more limited, the stock suspension offers a very nice camber curve, especially if the ride height is adjusted so that the control arms are parallel to the ground. There's very little bump steer with the stock system at that ride height, so there's no real improvement to be gained there. The roll center is pretty good at that height as well. With tubular UCA's you have the adjustability to set alignments anywhere from mild street to aggressive road or autoX. Even just offset UCA bushings can get you decent negative camber and positive caster settings.

I think tomswheels said it best, the coilover conversions will make it easier to drive fast. And they do make the car easier to set up. But that doesn't mean that the stock system can't be driven just as fast (or faster, as tom has demonstrated), or tuned properly. And I think that for the vast majority of drivers (myself included), the limiting factor in how competitive their cars are will not be the torsion bar suspension design, which makes spending thousands of extra dollars pretty unnecessary. And even if I can't get the stock system tuned perfectly for my application I'm going to have just as much fun, even if I'm not as absolutely fast as possible. Still, I think cars like the Green Brick, the Hotchkis Challenger, and a few others have more than demonstrated that the torsion bar system CAN be competitive.

It really comes down to what you want and how you're going to use the car. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why I need to add a coilover system to any of my cars. None. Take a look at the Hotchkis '76 Dart Sport build. That car is changing EVERYTHING. Loads of custom fabrication so that the car can compete here and abroad at things like Pike's Peak and Targa Newfoundland. But yet, they're keeping the torsion bars. If the stock system was that awful, and budget and fabrication is basically a non-issue, why would you keep it?
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=270106
 
Horse puckey.

All suspension design is a trade off, plain and simple. Coilovers aren't magic, they have issues too. There are just as many disadvantages as advantages.

I'm glad that you've found success with the RMS system. But that doesn't mean a coilover set up is inherently better. With proper tuning a torsion bar system can be just as effective. It's just physics.

lmao! you seriously just said that?! every fast car on the track in the country is running some sort of coilover aftermarket suspension,chevy,ford,or mopar. even if I had a car I DIDN'T race,i would run a four link rear for the ride and control aspects.
 
lmao! you seriously just said that?! every fast car on the track in the country is running some sort of coilover aftermarket suspension,chevy,ford,or mopar.

Funny, that's exactly the same thing you said the last time I said coilovers weren't superior. What you still seem to not comprehend is that there are more reasons than just geometry to use a certain system.

For example, the ability to quickly change set ups by exchanging coilovers. Same reason struts and coilovers came about in the first place. It has nothing to do with suspension geometry or handling, and everything to do with how fast they can be installed (assembly line) or swapped (racing). Tuning is the most important aspect of a suspension for racing, above even geometry and absolute handling, because of the variation in tracks, weather conditions, etc. You may not always have the BEST suspension, but on the whole you'll be closer. And torsion bar systems are still at a disadvantage there. You can't just swap out your bars for ones that have a wheel rate that's 10 lbs/in lighter or heavier. You might be able to go 30 lbs/in lighter/heavier, but in most cases you're looking at more like 50 lb/in on the wheel rate. Unlike coilovers, where you can pretty much get anything you want.

BUT, that doesn't mean the coilover system is an inherently better design in any way whatsoever. It just means it has more aftermarket support. And on a track where the available torsion bar rates match what's needed, the coilovers will offer no specific handling advantage over the torsion bars whatsoever. NONE. Coilovers really are a less efficient suspension design, although I'm sure I'll never convince you of that. But since you can overcome a lot of those disadvantages with a wider range of tuning, coilovers end up on everything.

It's like how chevy 350's end up in 90% of all hot rods. It's not a better design, it's just cheaper and easier.

It just comes down to physics. All suspension designs are a compromise, without exception. If you don't get that, you've obviously never designed suspension. I have. In fact, I even helped design a coilover suspension for a FSAE competition car. Why coilovers for a custom set up? Because welding up control arms is easy, and you can get what you need without having someone custom forge a one-off set of torsion bars. Not better, just easier. It's all a trade off.
 
Thanks for the info 72. I think for my specific application a coil over design may be the way to go but the things you have said make sense. I think with my current plans I'll benefit from the extra room more than anything.
 
I get calls all the time with builders wanting to move things all around .

The beauty of eliminating the torsion bars is you are no longer pigion holed with engine choice.....or placement.

HDK additionally offers choice of moving the rack up.... or down... giving builders a choice outside the box.

And on exhaust, allow me quote Mr. Hoover ..." Everyone should have to build one set of headers but no one should have to build two." Simply put, no torsion bars.....many exhaust options.

The tuning aspect is a big plus, but rarely comes into the conversation.....it is more of a ....can it fit? application.
That said.....I feel the HDK goes a few steps ahead of the competition in the tuning aspect by offering greater adjustability.

I deal with many that have spent mucho dollars on the factory upgrades (control arms, brakes, shocks) only to wish they had the money back to put towards the next step....rack and coil-over conversion. Not my words....theirs.

Personally.....I like torsion bars....they just get in the way.
 
I get calls all the time with builders wanting to move things all around .

The beauty of eliminating the torsion bars is you are no longer pigion holed with engine choice.....or placement.

HDK additionally offers choice of moving the rack up.... or down giving builders to choose outside of the box.

And on exhaust, allow me quote Mr. Hoover ..." Everyone should have to build one set of headers but no one should have to build two. Simply put, no torsion bars.....many exhaust options.

The tuning aspect in a plus, but rarely comes into the conversation.....it is more of a ....can it fit? application.
That said.....I feel the HDK goes a few steps ahead of the competition in the tuning aspect by offering greater adjustability.

I deal with many that have spent mucho dollars on the factory upgrades (control arms, brakes, shocks) only to wish they had the money back to put towards the next step....rack and coil-over conversion. Not my words....theirs.

Personally.....I like torsion bars....they just get in the way.

I would agree with most of that,but my problem was the rear. I had my frontend sorted out pretty well ,just couldn't get there with leaves. I mean,name one car you can buy new with leaves in the rear.
 
I would agree with most of that,but my problem was the rear. I had my frontend sorted out pretty well ,just couldn't get there with leaves. I mean,name one car you can buy new with leaves in the rear.
I actually have another thread open on a potential IRS swap. One guy has done it.. I'm going to take a different approach if I can. Very interesting topic as well. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=301576 Hopefully my next thread will be updates and a t56 conversion. (will probably be getting in touch with you after tax returns come back Denny. Figure out exactly what I need and all)
 
That said.....I feel the HDK goes a few steps ahead of the competition in the tuning aspect by offering greater adjustability.

I deal with many that have spent mucho dollars on the factory upgrades (control arms, brakes, shocks) only to wish they had the money back to put towards the next step....rack and coil-over conversion. Not my words....theirs.

Personally.....I like torsion bars....they just get in the way.

I have to say that is one advantage over the competition that only has a fixed engine position.

I did all the factory upgrades and headers are the reason I'm swapping. Small block or BB headers on a mopar just plain suck. (with exception of Schumacher's that don't flow enough for most )
 
I have to say that is one advantage over the competition that only has a fixed engine position.

I did all the factory upgrades and headers are the reason I'm swapping. Small block or BB headers on a mopar just plain suck. (with exception of Schumacher's that don't flow enough for most )

good point.....hard to get around the never ending PIA install, rubbing, and overall clearance issues.
 
I would agree with most of that,but my problem was the rear. I had my frontend sorted out pretty well ,just couldn't get there with leaves. I mean,name one car you can buy new with leaves in the rear.

for me....I like leaf springs...... as long as the rear / springs are not too narrow or have a very large tire and and mega HP to contend with.
if it is only a body roll control issue....I would think anti-sway bars would do the trick.

if you are autox ing....competitively, I would think you would want a 4-bar set-up to tune for traction (different from drag racing).

I notice a lot of guys that go to wide, low profile tires, wider track width, big torsion bars, and very little to no suspension travel remark how well the cars handle....and they should handle, they turned them into oversized go-carts.

I think there are still trucks with leaf springs...but they probably handle.....like a truck O:)

I really enjoy listening to all the different views. I have learned a lot from you guys. Thanks.
 
Thanks for the info 72. I think for my specific application a coil over design may be the way to go but the things you have said make sense. I think with my current plans I'll benefit from the extra room more than anything.

No problem. It is application specific, there are definitely benefits to moving to coilovers.

I get calls all the time with builders wanting to move things all around .

The beauty of eliminating the torsion bars is you are no longer pigion holed with engine choice.....or placement.

HDK additionally offers choice of moving the rack up.... or down... giving builders a choice outside the box.

And on exhaust, allow me quote Mr. Hoover ..." Everyone should have to build one set of headers but no one should have to build two." Simply put, no torsion bars.....many exhaust options.

The tuning aspect is a big plus, but rarely comes into the conversation.....it is more of a ....can it fit? application.
That said.....I feel the HDK goes a few steps ahead of the competition in the tuning aspect by offering greater adjustability.

I deal with many that have spent mucho dollars on the factory upgrades (control arms, brakes, shocks) only to wish they had the money back to put towards the next step....rack and coil-over conversion. Not my words....theirs.

Personally.....I like torsion bars....they just get in the way.

Well put. The room that the coilovers provide is very useful. Although personally I think the rack and pinion is probably one of the best aspects of the swap. Not saying you can't get it done without a rack, but it definitely makes things nicer. For me it really comes down to what you can do for your money. There are some nice bonuses to switching to coilovers, but those bonuses aren't worth the money IMHO, not for what I'm doing with my car. Handling isn't the issue with the torsion bars. And I just hate seeing the "toss it all out the window and spend $10k" argument. Because most people, and again this is my opinion, don't need to do that to get what they want for how they're using their car.

I would agree with most of that,but my problem was the rear. I had my frontend sorted out pretty well ,just couldn't get there with leaves. I mean,name one car you can buy new with leaves in the rear.

No argument there. There are lots of advantages to going to a triangulated 4-link. Or even a 3-link depending on the situation. I think autoX and road cars that don't have massive amounts of horsepower are better off with a 3 link, as it offers the advantage of greater adjustability over the 4 link. But the 3 link doesn't lend itself to the design of our cars quite as well, and its not enough if you've got gobs of horsepower.
 
Not sure exactly what suspension was under it but the best handling car I ever owned was a BMW JCW MC40 factory rally car. It had 250hp, weighed 2500 pounds and a had a 6 speed stick with 4:11 gears. That car embarrassed some vett's Camaro's and stangs.

It was 1 of 1,000 ever made. http://mc40.com/
 
I would agree with most of that,but my problem was the rear. I had my frontend sorted out pretty well ,just couldn't get there with leaves. I mean,name one car you can buy new with leaves in the rear.

A C7 Corvette... :D
 
lmao! you seriously just said that?! every fast car on the track in the country is running some sort of coilover aftermarket suspension,chevy,ford,or mopar. even if I had a car I DIDN'T race,i would run a four link rear for the ride and control aspects.

Please supply this list of "fast" Mopars that are currently running on the track. I'd like to make sure to take a look at them when they show up. Somehow I must be missing them when I'm there, or reviewing the results after the events.
 
You can header a car very easily in the fender. The t-bar only gets in the way when you try to go down the middle. There is plenty of room if you move the firewall back in those areas. My biggest gripe is to get a smooth flow off of #1 and #2 with a big block you have to move back to clear the shock towers and that means changing the steering. If I had it to do again I would have kept my t-bars and found a way to go to a front steer rack. The coil conversion with stock k and steering weights almost the same.
 
You beat me to it...

Please supply this list of "fast" Mopars that are currently running on the track. I'd like to make sure to take a look at them when they show up. Somehow I must be missing them when I'm there, or reviewing the results after the events.

Haha. I couldn't say it because I'm not out there racing, but I had an idea.

And just more fuel for the fire. The new Ford GT supercar is using a torsion bar front suspension. Nothing wrong with torsion bars...:evil3:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1501_ford_gt_in_detroit_is_very_real_with_600_plus_hp/
 
And just more fuel for the fire. The new Ford GT supercar is using a torsion bar front suspension. Nothing wrong with torsion bars...:evil3:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1501_ford_gt_in_detroit_is_very_real_with_600_plus_hp/

I seen this as well and nearly fell over backards! Props to them, that's way cool! Also, this adds to the growing list of things they did with that car that are so... not sure how to put it... different. But not in a bad way. Anyways... my vote is for torsion bars! :burnout::cheers:
 
-
Back
Top