Going to install throttle body injection to my 360 .Need to know your experiences and what the easiest and best full kits there are? some of the ones I see online are way expensive.How are some of the more reasonable priced kits working for all of you?Any issues ect? The 360 is a carberated 4 barrel 1973 going into my 1972 duster automatic.Running aprox 290 hp.
Best fuel injection ?
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dano
Evil Handy Man
Avoiding the TBI vs Port EFI argument you'll probably find the Holley Sniper is most commonly used. That's not to say FiTech, MSD Atomic, and Fast EFI are bad either. Edelbrock has their Port EFI system, a few folks have reported some fitment issues in the distributor area but other wise are pretty good to.
I have a friend who has installed about 9 Sniper EFI set ups for friends and he loves it. Now that Holley has an in tank EFI pump and regulator that is made the for the stock tank, that takes the extra work and some cost out of the fuel system.
How are your computer skills as they, like a carburetor will need some from of fine tuning?
I have a friend who has installed about 9 Sniper EFI set ups for friends and he loves it. Now that Holley has an in tank EFI pump and regulator that is made the for the stock tank, that takes the extra work and some cost out of the fuel system.
How are your computer skills as they, like a carburetor will need some from of fine tuning?
Watching closely..........
A carburetor.
Matt65valiant
Member
I've got a fitech on the 360 in my 1977 m886 which I drive daily in New Hampshire it's only been on since September but so far it's been great.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
It is REALLY difficult to say, "best."
1...What is your budget and there is ALWAYS unforseen "headroom"
2....Do you think you might upgrade later, AKA go from TBI to port injection? If so, consider a Holley system which uses the external "HP" series computer. This can handle TBI, you can later disconnect/ remove the TBI injectors and use the same TB for your port injection, just an example
3...What is your talent with computers and do you think you can tune it yourself.......because paying others to do tuning/ fuel/ timing maps will add up fast.
4...You going to wire it yourself? You must be pretty careful not to invoke EMI/RFI problems with modern electronics.
1...What is your budget and there is ALWAYS unforseen "headroom"
2....Do you think you might upgrade later, AKA go from TBI to port injection? If so, consider a Holley system which uses the external "HP" series computer. This can handle TBI, you can later disconnect/ remove the TBI injectors and use the same TB for your port injection, just an example
3...What is your talent with computers and do you think you can tune it yourself.......because paying others to do tuning/ fuel/ timing maps will add up fast.
4...You going to wire it yourself? You must be pretty careful not to invoke EMI/RFI problems with modern electronics.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
What system you use is entirely up to you, each has its advantages and limitations. I am not sure what your experience is with EFI, so if I say something you know, my apologies.
There are a number of main issues here that require consideration and ultimately make a decision on, however in general is comes down to the EFI type, system, the fuel system, and the electrical system.
THE EFI TYPE - There are 2 types of EFI, direct port injection (DPI) and throttle body injection (TBI).
1. Direct port injection uses a modified intake or one purposely made to accept injectors and a fuel rail. These are very efficient and are used in all modern cars today. The intake remains dry meaning that no fuel enters the intake itself, rather fuel is sprayed directly into each cylinder.
2. Throttle body injection (AKA TBI) has injectors installed into the throttle body itself (usually with some other sensors as well) and sprays fuel into the intake much like a carb would. They are popular because you can use the same intake you used with a carb.
THE EFI SYSTEM - there are as you have discovered many different systems on the market, so much so that it makes it very difficult to make a coherent decision and given that none of them are exactly cheap, no one wants to make the wrong decision. In general, there are basically 2 types of EFI;
1. Basic (aka self-learning): This would be like Fitech or a FAST EZ system. In essence you bolt it on, connect the wires, answer some questions into the handheld and go. The system will learn as you drive. As far as I know, there are not any self-learning EFI direct port injection systems, all I have seen are throttle body designs. It’s worth noting that pretty much all EFI systems you look at will have a self-learning feature, however in a basic system that is all you have/get and you cannot make any changes directly. This is not an issue on a stock or mild engine, however an engine with a big cam, high compression, etc. may not do well with a basic system because the computer cannot tune correctly.
PROs - easy to install and connect, relatively inexpensive. Computer/controller is typically very small and easy to mount/hide and the wiring is very simple, Fitech needs 4 wires to run.
CONs - not as efficient as a direct port system, any problem affects the entire system (throttle body). In general, they are not as efficient or responsive because they normally only control fuel although there may be some systems that can integrate spark control.
2. Advanced - This would be like a Holly HP or some of the FAST systems wherein you have a fairly large computer and have to tune the computer with a laptop and perhaps a dyno. An advanced system can be used on a TBI or DPI type system, but is always found on DPI systems.
PROs - very comprehensive and able to be tuned to any engine setup and/or performance goal. Much more tunable and configurable. Typically, these systems are set up to control spark as well as fuel in addition to the fuel pump, fans, and AC. Some of these systems also can integrate into dash mounted control panels that will provide a wide range of data and even show various gauges. They are much more versatile overall and can control a wide range of functions, additionally they allow you to install specific tunes for specific conditions and can adapt to changes to the engine.
CONs - More expensive generally, computer is significantly larger and can be a challenge to mount in a classic car but certainly not impossible. They do require more understanding to make work well and in ideal situations you would want to tune the vehicle on a dyno, however this is not mandatory, it just takes longer to do it manually.
THE FUEL SYSTEM. This is the most discussed and misunderstood aspect of EFI. There is a lot of misinformation roaming around the internet and on forums, but more so there are a lot of DIY people out there who make something work initially and claim success, however in many cases these cobbled together systems are fraught with issues and problems that in many cases case people to hate EFI.
The biggest issue with EFI fuel systems revolves around the return line. There are systems on the market which are marketed with the “no return line required” statement. However, in almost everyone of them, once you get it and read the instructions you will find a statement saying “return line highly recommended”. While, it is possible to put a returnless system in, it is not optimal and comes with issues.
There are 3 types of EFI fuel systems out there;
1. Fuel command style systems – this is a system where a component is installed into usually the engine compartment where the fuel line from the normal fuel pump to the carb is rerouted to the fuel command system at low pressure. The command center turns the fuel into high pressure and a line is run from that to the EFI system. The return line from the EFI system is run back to the command center. The advantage of this system is that it is the least evasive system on the market, allows the standard fuel system to be used, and does not require return lines or a new fuel system. The down side to this type of system is that the command center is pretty large and does take up some room.
2. External fuel pump system – in this system, you have a fuel pump mounted under the car somewhere along with a pre and post filter. In most cases this requires new fuel lines (feed and return) and the stock fuel pump is removed and eliminated. The advantage of this system is that it is relatively easy to install, if the pump ever has issues it is easy to replace. The down side to this style is that the pumps tend to make some noise and they do not last as long because they get hot and of course they are subject to road damage.
3. Internal pump system – this is the most often used system and by far the most desirable. This places a high-pressure pump into the tank where it can remain cool as well as reduce a lot of the noise. The down side is that to replace them can some times be an issue depending on the application.
2 other issues involved here fuel lines and filters.
FUEL LINES – Fuel lines for an EFI system must be rated for a high pressure (EFI can run 60+ psi whereas a carb system runs around 7 psi). Steel lines will work as may aluminum lines (some manufacturers state aluminum cannot or should not be used), also steel braided or EFI rated nylon braided line). Of course, the appropriate ends must be used with whatever line is used.
FILTERS – EFI requires a very clean system and most systems demand that you use a 40-micron pre-filter and a 100-micron post filter. Failure to use the appropriate filter will result in the failure and potentially the destruction of the EFI system.
THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM. Many thinking about installing an EFI system do not think about the electrical system, however EFI demands clean steady power to operate correctly. The old 60 Amp alternator with original wring will most likely not suffice, or suffice for very long. It is usually recommended that at least a 100 Amp alternator be used, but to really know what to install, you need to determine what the electrical needs are.
There are other aspects of installing and using EFI but none of it is super difficult, it just takes some careful thought and approach.
There are a number of main issues here that require consideration and ultimately make a decision on, however in general is comes down to the EFI type, system, the fuel system, and the electrical system.
THE EFI TYPE - There are 2 types of EFI, direct port injection (DPI) and throttle body injection (TBI).
1. Direct port injection uses a modified intake or one purposely made to accept injectors and a fuel rail. These are very efficient and are used in all modern cars today. The intake remains dry meaning that no fuel enters the intake itself, rather fuel is sprayed directly into each cylinder.
2. Throttle body injection (AKA TBI) has injectors installed into the throttle body itself (usually with some other sensors as well) and sprays fuel into the intake much like a carb would. They are popular because you can use the same intake you used with a carb.
THE EFI SYSTEM - there are as you have discovered many different systems on the market, so much so that it makes it very difficult to make a coherent decision and given that none of them are exactly cheap, no one wants to make the wrong decision. In general, there are basically 2 types of EFI;
1. Basic (aka self-learning): This would be like Fitech or a FAST EZ system. In essence you bolt it on, connect the wires, answer some questions into the handheld and go. The system will learn as you drive. As far as I know, there are not any self-learning EFI direct port injection systems, all I have seen are throttle body designs. It’s worth noting that pretty much all EFI systems you look at will have a self-learning feature, however in a basic system that is all you have/get and you cannot make any changes directly. This is not an issue on a stock or mild engine, however an engine with a big cam, high compression, etc. may not do well with a basic system because the computer cannot tune correctly.
PROs - easy to install and connect, relatively inexpensive. Computer/controller is typically very small and easy to mount/hide and the wiring is very simple, Fitech needs 4 wires to run.
CONs - not as efficient as a direct port system, any problem affects the entire system (throttle body). In general, they are not as efficient or responsive because they normally only control fuel although there may be some systems that can integrate spark control.
2. Advanced - This would be like a Holly HP or some of the FAST systems wherein you have a fairly large computer and have to tune the computer with a laptop and perhaps a dyno. An advanced system can be used on a TBI or DPI type system, but is always found on DPI systems.
PROs - very comprehensive and able to be tuned to any engine setup and/or performance goal. Much more tunable and configurable. Typically, these systems are set up to control spark as well as fuel in addition to the fuel pump, fans, and AC. Some of these systems also can integrate into dash mounted control panels that will provide a wide range of data and even show various gauges. They are much more versatile overall and can control a wide range of functions, additionally they allow you to install specific tunes for specific conditions and can adapt to changes to the engine.
CONs - More expensive generally, computer is significantly larger and can be a challenge to mount in a classic car but certainly not impossible. They do require more understanding to make work well and in ideal situations you would want to tune the vehicle on a dyno, however this is not mandatory, it just takes longer to do it manually.
THE FUEL SYSTEM. This is the most discussed and misunderstood aspect of EFI. There is a lot of misinformation roaming around the internet and on forums, but more so there are a lot of DIY people out there who make something work initially and claim success, however in many cases these cobbled together systems are fraught with issues and problems that in many cases case people to hate EFI.
The biggest issue with EFI fuel systems revolves around the return line. There are systems on the market which are marketed with the “no return line required” statement. However, in almost everyone of them, once you get it and read the instructions you will find a statement saying “return line highly recommended”. While, it is possible to put a returnless system in, it is not optimal and comes with issues.
There are 3 types of EFI fuel systems out there;
1. Fuel command style systems – this is a system where a component is installed into usually the engine compartment where the fuel line from the normal fuel pump to the carb is rerouted to the fuel command system at low pressure. The command center turns the fuel into high pressure and a line is run from that to the EFI system. The return line from the EFI system is run back to the command center. The advantage of this system is that it is the least evasive system on the market, allows the standard fuel system to be used, and does not require return lines or a new fuel system. The down side to this type of system is that the command center is pretty large and does take up some room.
2. External fuel pump system – in this system, you have a fuel pump mounted under the car somewhere along with a pre and post filter. In most cases this requires new fuel lines (feed and return) and the stock fuel pump is removed and eliminated. The advantage of this system is that it is relatively easy to install, if the pump ever has issues it is easy to replace. The down side to this style is that the pumps tend to make some noise and they do not last as long because they get hot and of course they are subject to road damage.
3. Internal pump system – this is the most often used system and by far the most desirable. This places a high-pressure pump into the tank where it can remain cool as well as reduce a lot of the noise. The down side is that to replace them can some times be an issue depending on the application.
2 other issues involved here fuel lines and filters.
FUEL LINES – Fuel lines for an EFI system must be rated for a high pressure (EFI can run 60+ psi whereas a carb system runs around 7 psi). Steel lines will work as may aluminum lines (some manufacturers state aluminum cannot or should not be used), also steel braided or EFI rated nylon braided line). Of course, the appropriate ends must be used with whatever line is used.
FILTERS – EFI requires a very clean system and most systems demand that you use a 40-micron pre-filter and a 100-micron post filter. Failure to use the appropriate filter will result in the failure and potentially the destruction of the EFI system.
THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM. Many thinking about installing an EFI system do not think about the electrical system, however EFI demands clean steady power to operate correctly. The old 60 Amp alternator with original wring will most likely not suffice, or suffice for very long. It is usually recommended that at least a 100 Amp alternator be used, but to really know what to install, you need to determine what the electrical needs are.
There are other aspects of installing and using EFI but none of it is super difficult, it just takes some careful thought and approach.
70chall440
Mopar or No Car...
Well I have 3 of them currently and will be buying #4 in the not too distant future. Here is a rundown with reasons;
1. 73 Cuda:416 stroker 4 speed
Intake - Mopar 6 pack modified for a fuel rail
Throttle body/s - F&B 6 pack
Ignition - MSD 6 AL and Billet Distributor
EFI controller /harness - FAST EZ 1.0
Fuel System - Modified original tank, 1/2" steel lines (feed and return), external pump (came with the F&B system)
WHY - I went with this system because I wanted EFI and I wanted a 6-pack system. I built the car as a modern AAR type road race car. It has a ton of fabrication in it and I wanted a very exotic yet familiar intake system. When I bought this system, it was very new on the market and was a bit unproven, however the FAST system advertised that it was essentially "plug and play" and since I didn't know anything about EFI at the time it seemed like a good idea.
NOTES - The system functions as advertised and there is little to modify or manipulate which in the EFI world is a little bit limiting if you are trying to "fine tune" the system for performance, easier starting, etc. It does learn on its own and gets better every time you drive/run it.
2. 70 Challenger RT 440 AT
Intake - Mopar 6 pack modified for EFI fuel rails
Throttle bodies - F&B 6 pack
Ignition - MSD 6 AL box, Holley duel sync hall effect distributor
EFI controller/harness - Holley HP
Fuel system - Tanks Inc. EFI tank with internal fuel pump and filter, 1/2" aluminum lines (feed and return)
WHY - I built this car the first time in 2004, its an original 440 4BBL AT AC RT car. I had a traditional Mopar 6 pack system on the car since I built it but since I do not drive it frequently it was always a royal pain to get running with the carbs. I rebuilt them at least 4 times yet it never lasted and to be blunt it ran like crap. While I was about 3/4 of the way done with the Cuda I came to the conclusion that I had never finished the Challenger or at least got it to a drivable state. I decided to install the E&B system and thus I would have a BB and SB version. While I was looking at the F&B systems, I stumbled upon FASTMAN EFI (Rich Nerdahl), I called him and it turns out he is an old school Mopar guy, more specifically a Hemi guy. He told me that Holley was the way to go and that he would sell me the controller system (I purchased the intake and TBs directly from F&B) and that he would assist me in any way needed to get it set up and working correctly. Therefore, I ordered the distributor and computer/harness from him (drop shipped from Holley).
NOTES - This system with the Hall Effect distributor and HP computer is far more controllable than the FAST system but requires a lap top and an understanding of EFI systems/program to a degree. I got a very intense education on this subject after I got it but to be honest, I really prefer it because you can control timing, fuel, idle, etc. through the laptop. Once you get your head around it, it is not near as difficult as it appears. Currently I do not drive the car any more than before but it starts, idles and runs better than it ever has not to mention that power is WAY up.
3. 52 Dodge B3B w/Desoto 330 Hemi AT
Intake - Hot heads 4BBL
Throttle body/s - Fitech go street
Ignition - Mopar electronic
EFI controller/harness - Fitech (comes with the TB)
Fuel system - Tanks Inc. tank with internal pump and filter, 3/8" Fragola HP series 8000 lines (feed and return)
WHY - When I built this truck, I installed a brand-new Holley 600 CFM carb; initially it ran great but like the others sits more than it runs. I took it out a couple of years ago and went and got gas. Upon leaving the gas station it began stumbling and puking; clearly the carb had issues. I got it home and messed with the carb a little and then it ran ok, however I was so upset that I ordered the Fitech system the next day. This was the cheapest EFI system you could buy at the time ($795). When it arrived, I bolted it on, connected the 4 wires, installed the O2 sensor, installed the fuel system and fired it up.
NOTES - The truck will start and run any time I want it to; it has a tremendous amount of power and runs great.
I also just installed a Fitech Tri-power system on a 69 Ply wagon but have not got it running yet.
Bottom line here is that if I can help it I will never have another carb, EFI is so much better. Yes, it is more expensive to get set up but once you have it you will not regret it.
1. 73 Cuda:416 stroker 4 speed
Intake - Mopar 6 pack modified for a fuel rail
Throttle body/s - F&B 6 pack
Ignition - MSD 6 AL and Billet Distributor
EFI controller /harness - FAST EZ 1.0
Fuel System - Modified original tank, 1/2" steel lines (feed and return), external pump (came with the F&B system)
WHY - I went with this system because I wanted EFI and I wanted a 6-pack system. I built the car as a modern AAR type road race car. It has a ton of fabrication in it and I wanted a very exotic yet familiar intake system. When I bought this system, it was very new on the market and was a bit unproven, however the FAST system advertised that it was essentially "plug and play" and since I didn't know anything about EFI at the time it seemed like a good idea.
NOTES - The system functions as advertised and there is little to modify or manipulate which in the EFI world is a little bit limiting if you are trying to "fine tune" the system for performance, easier starting, etc. It does learn on its own and gets better every time you drive/run it.
2. 70 Challenger RT 440 AT
Intake - Mopar 6 pack modified for EFI fuel rails
Throttle bodies - F&B 6 pack
Ignition - MSD 6 AL box, Holley duel sync hall effect distributor
EFI controller/harness - Holley HP
Fuel system - Tanks Inc. EFI tank with internal fuel pump and filter, 1/2" aluminum lines (feed and return)
WHY - I built this car the first time in 2004, its an original 440 4BBL AT AC RT car. I had a traditional Mopar 6 pack system on the car since I built it but since I do not drive it frequently it was always a royal pain to get running with the carbs. I rebuilt them at least 4 times yet it never lasted and to be blunt it ran like crap. While I was about 3/4 of the way done with the Cuda I came to the conclusion that I had never finished the Challenger or at least got it to a drivable state. I decided to install the E&B system and thus I would have a BB and SB version. While I was looking at the F&B systems, I stumbled upon FASTMAN EFI (Rich Nerdahl), I called him and it turns out he is an old school Mopar guy, more specifically a Hemi guy. He told me that Holley was the way to go and that he would sell me the controller system (I purchased the intake and TBs directly from F&B) and that he would assist me in any way needed to get it set up and working correctly. Therefore, I ordered the distributor and computer/harness from him (drop shipped from Holley).
NOTES - This system with the Hall Effect distributor and HP computer is far more controllable than the FAST system but requires a lap top and an understanding of EFI systems/program to a degree. I got a very intense education on this subject after I got it but to be honest, I really prefer it because you can control timing, fuel, idle, etc. through the laptop. Once you get your head around it, it is not near as difficult as it appears. Currently I do not drive the car any more than before but it starts, idles and runs better than it ever has not to mention that power is WAY up.
3. 52 Dodge B3B w/Desoto 330 Hemi AT
Intake - Hot heads 4BBL
Throttle body/s - Fitech go street
Ignition - Mopar electronic
EFI controller/harness - Fitech (comes with the TB)
Fuel system - Tanks Inc. tank with internal pump and filter, 3/8" Fragola HP series 8000 lines (feed and return)
WHY - When I built this truck, I installed a brand-new Holley 600 CFM carb; initially it ran great but like the others sits more than it runs. I took it out a couple of years ago and went and got gas. Upon leaving the gas station it began stumbling and puking; clearly the carb had issues. I got it home and messed with the carb a little and then it ran ok, however I was so upset that I ordered the Fitech system the next day. This was the cheapest EFI system you could buy at the time ($795). When it arrived, I bolted it on, connected the 4 wires, installed the O2 sensor, installed the fuel system and fired it up.
NOTES - The truck will start and run any time I want it to; it has a tremendous amount of power and runs great.
I also just installed a Fitech Tri-power system on a 69 Ply wagon but have not got it running yet.
Bottom line here is that if I can help it I will never have another carb, EFI is so much better. Yes, it is more expensive to get set up but once you have it you will not regret it.
pishta
I know I'm right....
For the price of an EFI system nowadays, you could buy a beater truck with a stock 5.9 Magnum EFI and take the entire motor out as a transplant. Snipers are up to $1600 US. And MPFI models are up to $2600....
And that's still without the fuel system, right? Or have they finally integrated it?
DieWilde13
Well-Known Member
I had a Holley 'Super Sniper in my Van. Was pretty satisfied with it.
Installation was easy. Only headache was the Hyperspark distributor. Ignition was somehow always a problem. At least with the hyperspark and holley control.
But otherwise i was pretty happy!
Installation was easy. Only headache was the Hyperspark distributor. Ignition was somehow always a problem. At least with the hyperspark and holley control.
But otherwise i was pretty happy!
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