Body help/advice needed

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rod7515

rod7515

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The guy that started to help with my 66 dart hasnt been very dependable this past summer. I only got 16 hours of work all summer long. I dont know if he will show up any more regular this fall or not but Im soon going to move on without him. So I was wondering if theres any person here at FABO that would be interested in helping me through the body work that i need to finish. Let me say that im not a body guy. Ive never done any shaping of body lines but im willing to take advice and direction. Most of the work will be on the rear quarters as he has already bonded on the new panels. I need to build the lower edge of the rear inner fenders and trunk extention. I can send pics as i go. If interested in guiding me thru this and the painting let me know.
Thanks.
Rod
 
Rod, i'm not a 'body man' either, but can try to help. My biggest problem right now is not enough time. I'd love to at least come over and see what you got going on. And you are welcome to come check out my Duster before taking any of my advice. LOL
Keith
 
post ur pics. and ask away! im a body man and I have no problem offering any advice I can. there are plenty of people on here who will be willing to help as well.
 
Keith, If I remember you are down on 74 just below red lion. You are more then welcome to come up and heck this out any time you want. Shoot me a PM and I will give you an address and directions. I am only about 1 mile as the crow flies from you.
Poisondart, thats some great info in that thread. I will refer back to that as I move forward. Thanks
Lenky1, I will post up some pics later tonight of where I am. I appreciate your offer to help.
Rod
 
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Heres what I started with. Both sides needed repair and the patch panels you had to buy as 2 separate pieces.

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The guy that started the work wanted to use the original body line as the place to glue panel too. We used the 3m 8115 bond compound. he cut the old off 1 inch below the line then trimmed the new panel to match the original line. This gave us 1" for bonding. Where the 2 repair panels matched there is also 1" over hang for bonding.

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Here is a pic with the outer panel trimmed off and you can see how bad the inner fender was. I dont have to build a factory current inner as I need to have as much space as possible inside so my slicks dont hit inner so I told him we could bond the inner to the outer up in well if that would work. More pics on that to come.

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This is with the panels bonded into place. Both sides are to this point.
 
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As you can see the replacement panel does not have the indent line in it so we were planning on filling the line shut instead of trying to put that seam into the new panel. I dont think anyone except a Dart owner would ever know it wasnt correct.

Now for the inner fenders.
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the above is the right side inner. Again I dont have to have the inner to look original but i do need to seal the rear so water dont lay inside and rust again. This is one area I dont have a clue how to do. I am buying a shrinker and stretcher to make some parts. I hope to have it in the next 2 weeks. It will be an eastwood part#51088.
Below is the pic of the left side that he started but never finished.

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If you look close he tach welded the inner to the outer. Not sure what his direction was going to be. I would be ok to cut the inner straight across and bond it to the outer if that would work. My slicks will be close in that area as they are 28" tall. No problem with street tires on as they are only 26" tall. But if I go that way I still need to seal of the very back inner below trunk so water cant lay in there. I wont be driving very often in rain and the car will be a garaged vehicle.

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This is the paint scheme I want to paint or something very similar although I could change my mind!
If you look at the pic you can see where the holes are down the side for the original moldings. They are being eliminated so i made small plugs that just fit into those holes then glued them in place using the 3m 8115. See photo below.

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Was this ok to do this way? Was going to tap in some and then skim over to smooth. I was worried that welding would warp panels to much.

Well theres a quick update on what I was thinking and the direction I was heading. I hope this helps you understand a little about the work that needs done. Let me know what else I can tell you or other photos you want to see. Like I said earlier, I hope to start this in about 2 weeks.
Thanks
Rod
 
in my opinion rod your better off welding the holes shut. take your time and keep it cool. ive seen glued in pieces and over time they have a tendency to show back up from the paint and filler shrinking. Just my opinion. my other concern is if your building a healthy motor the vibration may get to it as well. any seams that you are worried about use seam sealer there are several good brands. when it comes to bodywork there are many different methods. don't be afraid to try or you wont learn anything.
 
Thanks for the input lenky, if i knock those plugs out, when i weld them shut do i put a small piece of metal in then weld or just weld the hole shut using the welding wire? If so can the entire hole be welded at once or go at it in steps to keep heat down. Holes are probably 1/4". As for the seams your recommending a seam filler and not the 3m 8115 bonding epoxy?
Thanks Rod.
 
don't use the 8115 for filling seams to keep water out. you can use the 8115 to do the bonding of your panels but all seams need seam sealed. its like a caulking that will stay flexible and paintable. as far as your holes you don't want to just weld the hole in one shot. your better off tack welding around the edges little by little and fill it in cooling as you go. you can put a piece in there and then weld it as well. which ever you feel more comfortable doing. when it comes to seam sealer I use evercoat 6022 or 6023 or I use 3m 08361 its in a sausage tube type container
 
Did some sanding the last 2 nights. On the trunk area I found some dark spots in the metal once the paint and primer was removed. Not sure if I should be concerned with this. Let me know what you think. I am attaching a few pics

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As you can see they are dark spots but I cant feel them as I slide my finger over them. Was wondering if I should treat them with a rust inhibitor before i shoot primer. They do not sand out.

Thanks
Rod
 
lenky1 said:
in my opinion rod your better off welding the holes shut. take your time and keep it cool. ive seen glued in pieces and over time they have a tendency to show back up from the paint and filler shrinking. Just my opinion. my other concern is if your building a healthy motor the vibration may get to it as well. any seams that you are worried about use seam sealer there are several good brands. when it comes to bodywork there are many different methods. don't be afraid to try or you wont learn anything.
Click to expand...

Same experience here with the panel adhesives.
 
rod7515 said:
Did some sanding the last 2 nights. On the trunk area I found some dark spots in the metal once the paint and primer was removed. Not sure if I should be concerned with this. Let me know what you think. I am attaching a few pics

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As you can see they are dark spots but I cant feel them as I slide my finger over them. Was wondering if I should treat them with a rust inhibitor before i shoot primer. They do not sand out.

Thanks
Rod
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I use a product called Ospho to treat rust spots.
 
As far warping with welding, think little spots one next to each other, skip around the panel and let it cool before placing one next to it. I would clean up that glue and go down that horizontal seam in that fashion. The welding on the trunk drop off looks to need a little more heat or less wire speed. You want enough heat to get the job done without unnecessarily piling metal on. Cleaning with wire wheel and wiping with a dewaxer prior to welding will help. Contamination makes for porous welds. I hate grinding weld lol
 
yes I like Ospho also for treating rust. it is an acid product so keep that in mind when applying any primer over it. Ospho needs to be totally dry before anything goes on it. I have some cars with LOTS of surface rust and pitting. Osho does a great job, I have applied it, and let it sit for months, with nothing on it, and no rust appeared.
like he said, that weld shows, too low heat, too fast wire speed, is welder set for type wire using? polarity that is. i'm sure it will hold, but lots of grinding to get it somewhat smooth there. everything in life takes practice and having big enough guts to try!!! keep at it man!
worping metal. remember you can worp a long panel like a qtr so much easier than say a floor pan!!! when in doubt, just weld a 1/2 in. move way on down and do another, letting first weld cool. a flat washer behind that little hole, will help you fill the hole, but not necessary at all.
 
I like to use a piece of copper behind a hole. Keeps weld puddle from falling through and pulls right off. Also acts as bit of a heat sink.
 
I had the day off today so I thought I would tackle the inner fender wells. I cut 1" wide by 8" long strips of body metal. then bent them in half so I ended up with 90* angles to to make the inner fender lip. Bunt them to fit the contour and welded them together. Then I cut patches to fill the side areas and welded them to the new lips. But then the problem started as I am struggling with the welding of the new metal to the old inner fender. The old metal is to thin it burns thru to easy. Ive tried .023, .030 and .035 thick wire. I have a hobart 140 and I have it set at the lowest setting and wire speed down to 30. Not sure what will make this easier. The metal isnt rusty its just so thin. What do you do to getaway from this?
Thanks
Rod
 
Ive tacked it about every 2 inches then I was trying to run beads between the tacks. I tried to just tack in progression from one to another but even then it will burn thru. I will let the tack cool some before tacking on the next one but I have to be very careful and slow. My concern is that just tacking will it penetrate good enough.
Rod
 
rod7515 said:
Ive tacked it about every 2 inches then I was trying to run beads between the tacks. I tried to just tack in progression from one to another but even then it will burn thru. I will let the tack cool some before tacking on the next one but I have to be very careful and slow. My concern is that just tacking will it penetrate good enough.
Rod
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yes, I f heat, wire speed, correct distance from the metal and tip, and your technique. on that sheetmetal . 023 gas wire, if the old metal is eally thin, not cleaned correctly, you can have problems. practice and e xpeience will get you there.
 
rod7515 said:
Ive tacked it about every 2 inches then I was trying to run beads between the tacks. I tried to just tack in progression from one to another but even then it will burn thru. I will let the tack cool some before tacking on the next one but I have to be very careful and slow. My concern is that just tacking will it penetrate good enough.
Rod
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Tack every 2 inches next to the cold one instead of next to the one that still warm. Sometimes little more heat and wire less trigger is what gets it done. Also, the distance your tip is from the work can make a difference as too how much heat your putting in. Experimenation and practice like said.
 
I would be willing to help with advice. I own a spreed shop/restoration fabrication shop in Indianapolis,IN . If you would like to see my shop it's at the bottom of my signature.There is a link to the shops Facebook page.
So back to your project, I see several things that would be a red flag. First the repair panels look like they are lap welded? Really to replace as much sheet metal as you are doing the car should be sitting level. The picture of the trunk drop downs you have welded. First the sheet metal you are welding to is not clean. You will never get a good weld welding to contaminated material. Second the welds are to cold and the wire feed is to fast. The pictures you have of bare metal have rust pitting on the sheet metal. If you just prime over them the paint will fail in a short time. I would suggest getting the car blasted. Get it up on jack stands under the rails and square and level the body before you move on. Get the car in epoxy primer after it's blasted. Then start you sheet metal work. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.
Tim
 
Where its halfway together and half welded and your having issues with pitted or extremely thin metal, employing some spray welding techniques might help If you can dial in your machine to do it. Lap welding, the metal has to be tight , no gaps, clamp or screw.
 
Thanks for the advice. All my welds I am doing are butt welds. I did not over lap any metal. Maybe I should? I will practice a little more with some old metal I cut out whih is thin as well.
I will keep you updated as the weekend goes forward.
Thanks
Rod
 
Rod. But welding panels is the way to go. A bit of advice when welding tack weld around the panel moving your next weld to the opposite side of the panel. Keep and air line and blow gun close. Weld a spot and blow it til cool to touch. This will eleminate warping the panel. Most people will tell you grind the weld with a disc. You can do it that way. But you can warp the panel just as bad if your not careful. I would suggest buying a burr and cleaning up the weld with the burr until you are close to level on the panel. Then switch to a 50 grit disc for final clean up. When finished grinding hammer and dolly as much of the weld as s possible to fix any high or low spots on the panel. Pull a tight coat of duraglass over the weld as a base. Then you can start your filler work .
 
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