building a mild Daily driver 318

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318willrun said:
^^^^ that's why I don't get hung up on horsepower. Folks want a certain "horsepower", but have no idea what they want the car to do, or no idea of what goal for an E.T. to run. Just want a number for horsepower.
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Totally agree on this.
Guys with teeners and lwb cars should concentrate on making torque, and forget about the hp number. Sure you can make 340 power, but you will give away low speed performance every time, unless you throw gears and converter at it and then it has moved from the realm of DD to weekend warrior, or beyond. And what good is the car if you can't drive it, when-ever/where-ever?

My 70 Swinger340-4spd-3.55s pure stock on the E-70s it was born with,ran [email protected] with mega tirespin;(Those belted Goodyears were good for nothing, except laying 3gear blackies) so I get that. And I'm aware of the under-rated 340.
But there was a guy in hi-school with a 71 Demon340A/T, totally stock,who ran 115.
And my 73 LC Swinger teener, with all the 340 stuff bolted on, and no headers, was a total turd, as was my 74 Duster teener.
I did have one peppy teener, in a 71 Demon318-2bbl/904/unknown rear, that went 79@ high 15s. Ima thinkin it was 15.79.
Now the 70 weighed in at 3330/me in it, while the 73 was a topline model-no A/C,so a couple of hundred pounds heavier. It was a 904/2400stall&3.23s. And the 74 was a stripper model; 904-2.76s
My 70 was on it's second motor, which was not nearly as powerful as the first one. The guys I had been stomping all over, I was now barely able to keep up with. I had been the guy to beat, with the first engine. I sold that slowmobile.

The point is; performance on just these few combos is all over the map.
I may be off base here, but I think it would be misleading to think every LC teener out there can be made to perform like yours did/does.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Just build it old school like we did growin up. Leave the long block alone. Intake, carburetor, headers and if the budget can allow a mild cam and lifters and new timing chain set. You can also recurve the distributor real cheap.

That 318 will lay it down then.
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^^^^This is the stuff, here. ^^^ This is the cheapest way to put a smile on your face! And don't forget to throw on your traction bars, 'cause it's a good feeling when you power brake it up and the back end lifts about 2 inches... :D
 
AJ/FormS said:
My 70 Swinger340-4spd-3.55s pure stock on the E-70s it was born with,ran [email protected] with mega tirespin;(Those belted Goodyears were good for nothing, except laying 3gear blackies) so I get that. And I'm aware of the under-rated 340.
But there was a guy in hi-school with a 71 Demon340A/T, totally stock,who ran 115.

115 mph? Mr. Norms supercharged or what, cause no way a TOTALLY STOCK 71 Demon going 115 mph in the 1320.... lol. Sounds like a fish story and you ate it hook line and sinker
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AJ/FormS said:
Totally agree on this.
Guys with teeners and lwb cars should concentrate on making torque, and forget about the hp number. Sure you can make 340 power, but you will give away low speed performance every time, unless you throw gears and converter at it and then it has moved from the realm of DD to weekend warrior, or beyond. And what good is the car if you can't drive it, when-ever/where-ever?
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No I don't think so. If you're concerned about torque, rebuild the motor to stock specs. Torque could be a strong consideration but torque and compression being the first things you consider for a motor is a setup for disappointment. A 340 cam wouldn't require much converter and wouldn't require more gear than most people advocate as almost requirement. Many people would say the gears are more of an upgrade than the cam or intake/carb and recommend gears first.

AJ/FormS said:
My 70 Swinger340-4spd-3.55s pure stock on the E-70s it was born with,ran [email protected] with mega tirespin;(Those belted Goodyears were good for nothing, except laying 3gear blackies) so I get that. And I'm aware of the under-rated 340.
But there was a guy in hi-school with a 71 Demon340A/T, totally stock,who ran 115.
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'71s had heads that flowed almost as good as '70s, 10:1 still, and a bigger carb than '70s. Even if '71s were the most power, that sounds like an extreme gain over the X head cars- like not so stock.

AJ/FormS said:
And my 73 LC Swinger teener, with all the 340 stuff bolted on, and no headers, was a total turd, as was my 74 Duster teener.
I did have one peppy teener, in a 71 Demon318-2bbl/904/unknown rear, that went 79@ high 15s. Ima thinkin it was 15.79.

Now the 70 weighed in at 3330/me in it, while the 73 was a topline model-no A/C,so a couple of hundred pounds heavier. It was a 904/2400stall&3.23s. And the 74 was a stripper model; 904-2.76s
My 70 was on it's second motor, which was not nearly as powerful as the first one. The guys I had been stomping all over, I was now barely able to keep up with. I had been the guy to beat, with the first engine. I sold that slowmobile.
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I find it hard to believe the '73 with everything from a 340 would be exceptional disappointing unless it didn't have the 340 cam. 904/3.23s, even if it was 3600 it should've been a stronger car than a 2bbl Demon, even if the Demon had 3.91s.

AJ/FormS said:
The point is; performance on just these few combos is all over the map.
I may be off base here, but I think it would be misleading to think every LC teener out there can be made to perform like yours did/does.
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Very subtle differences can make a tremendous change, that's part of why the whole combination is important. Put the wrong cam in a high compression motor with low flow and it'll be an unpleasant dog. Low compression with a good cam can make for a healthy runner that's soft on the bottom. Obviously there's a middle ground there that's ideal.

Sure seems like the biggest difference between the E58s and the dogs that were the truck LD engines is the cam. Sure- the heads are different and the dogs sometimes have more compression but they don't run much hotter than a well-tuned 4bbl 318 with a small cam. I think that really carries over with most of the rest of this too. Unless you gain the flow and reasonable compression at the same time it's unlikely you're going to do any significant waking it up from that alone. The 4bbl thing I'm not sure on- on one hand, even if there's not a large power difference the drivability alone is worth it however it does seem like a healthy change in the engine.
 
The hard part in this thread is predicting exactly what a combo will run that you yourself have not run: My first good motor was a 351C.... similar bore and stoke at the SBM.

Built it with:
- 10:1 SCR (CC"d the heads myself)
- 600 cfm carb, vacuum secondaries, Holley R6619
- Hydraulic economy cam with.. get this... 190*/200* duration at .050" but with .445"/.471" lift thanks to the large stock rocker ratio of the Cleveland.. and 114* LSA !
- Torker manifold that everyone would nowadays say was all wrong with the carb and cam
- 1-7/8" 4-1 headers....again all wrong in size for carb and cam
- The good breathing of stock 2 BBL 351C heads

Result was a low-mid 14's car at 3300lbs without me, stock torque converter and low 3 rear gears. Would NOT burn off tires but would hook up and climb up through the range from 1500 to a optimum 6500 rpm 1-2 and 2-3 shift points at 55 and 85 MPH.....and would tow it's own weight with no problems (even in the Appalachians), and get 19 mpg at 65-70 mph with no OD. Could have been faster with some rear gears and TC.....

So here is an engine similar to 318willrun's in track speed (probably more low end torque), but not the same in build and probably not the same torque curve.....I giver credit to the CR AND the cam and carb sizing for towing and economy and low end, and the large breathing components (heads, intake, and headers) for extending the top end. Most people would say it was an all FU'd combo, but it was a great engine that did not lay down anywhere from low to high RPM. If I had 'known better', I probably would not have built it that way! LOL
 
now i have another question. Will an original 69 slant six 904 tranny hold a SBM and 300ish hp?
If so is it better or worse than the 727
 
Slant will not bolt to a small block.
 
Yes and no.
Yes with a few upgrades, and
No cuz it won't bolt up to the engine. They have different patterns

For 300hp, the 904 would be,IMO,better.

The 69 Valve body, and the bands and the small slanty clutch-packs wouldn't be optimum tho. Better is a 73up teener 904, with the Part-Throttle KD valve, on the VB.
 
bigcasey123 said:
now i have another question. Will an original 69 slant six 904 tranny hold a SBM and 300ish hp?
If so is it better or worse than the 727
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The slant transmission is not the same bolt pattern. You'll have to get a small block transmission. A 904 will be fine.
 
Okay. thats what i thought. i heard some of the bolt patterns are different on the 904s. some for a slant 6 and some for a SBM V8. From what it looks like i can find a cheap 727. are they decent as well? And if i buy a used one that ran when it was taken out should it be rebuilt before i drop it in?
 
A 727 behind this engine will be overkill......but you know what? There's nothin wrong with that. While it will cost a little more power to drive the 727 over the 904, the 727 will last forever. If you can get a small block 727 cheap, I would do it.
 
So do you think if i buy a used one for like $200-$300 i should rebuild it first or gamble and just clean it up and drop it in.
 
bigcasey123 said:
So do you think if i buy a used one for like $200-$300 i should rebuild it first or gamble and just clean it up and drop it in.
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You should build it. And there are a few important modifications you should make to the 727 that the 904 does not need.

You "probably" would be better off with a manual valve body and bolt in sprag at the very least. The 727 does not need to do burnouts on the 1-2 shift as if the tires grab on the shift to 2nd, it can cause some serious damage if the tires bite really hard on the shift into 2nd gear.

If the manual valve body is not something you want to do, I would advise the 904.

All this said, millions of 727s lasted on the street with zero trouble behind mild to moderate engines. It's just something to think about.
 
bigcasey123 said:
Okay. thats what i thought. i heard some of the bolt patterns are different on the 904s. some for a slant 6 and some for a SBM V8. From what it looks like i can find a cheap 727. are they decent as well? And if i buy a used one that ran when it was taken out should it be rebuilt before i drop it in?
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There's at least 4 patterns of torqueflites- slant, small block, big block, and AMC. Think the Mitsubishi engines have a different pattern too.

May sound irrelevant but the point is with Chrysler automatics you need to source the trans from something almost exactly like what it's going behind.
 
RustyRatRod said:
All this said, millions of 727s lasted on the street with zero trouble behind mild to moderate engines. It's just something to think about.
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my 727 only lasted a few months after my "mild rebuild" :banghead:
oh wait, that was a mild 408 :D
carry on :burnout:
 
bigcasey123 said:
But should i entirely rebuild it or just clean it up. Will it last if i just throw it in?
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I've just thrown them in and they have worked fine. But for sure, rebuild is better. I've gone deep into the 13's with "free-bee's" from Dodge pickup's..... Ah yes, not the torqueflites, but the good 'ole loadflites.... :D
 
My mild 318 in my old duster was a screamer! It was the 73 block that the car was built with. I had the cylinders bored .030 over, crank turned .020, factory rods rebuilt, and used a felpro rebuild kit with their 9.00 compression pistons. The block was decked to true things up, and I had a set of 360 heads with 2.02 1.60 valves and an edelbrock performer (intake and intake ports in heads were port matched) with a comp .480 lift cam, TTI headers and exhaust and MSD 6A and distributer. That motor with a dynamic 3200 9.5 inch convertor and 3.55's outback would beat mildly modded LS1 Camaro's and Firebirds. Im sure it was down on torque, but with the stall and gears it would scream to 6k all day long and wouldn't skip a beat!
 
^^^^As I've stated before, if mopar people loved the 318's the way Ford fans love their 302 fox bodies, there would be a whole lot more 11 second 318's on the street. Even when somebody chooses to build a 318, they are under strict instructions to build it very mildly, ya know, maybe a 15's or high 14 second car until you get a 360 or a stroker. Never, I mean NEVER plan to go fast with a teen. And, IF you do, you will be shot out of the sky like Spareparts, whose teen was one of the fastest street cars on this site. It does NOT settle well with folks that build strokers to get swallowed up by a 318. They won't cheer you, they will spite you. I love all mopar V8's, including the strokers, but it also includes the 318.
 
AJ/FormS said:
At the very least, drop the pan for a look-see, and adjust the bands; gunk in the pan makes it a core for me, and the asking price would need to be adjusted accordingly.
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Replace filter, seals and fluid also. Unless beat on mercilessly the clutches on a small block 727 will not be worn appreciably in 2 or 3 hundred thousand miles. If you will be doing water burn outs get the bolt in sprag.
 
ir3333 said:
...so why doesn't the 318 get any respect?
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It all depends on who you listen to. The 318 was never a High Performance engine till way late. But if you add all the good parts, like they did to the 360, they ran real strong. You may have noticed a "Theoretical" reason stated, like more cubes, but in practice 20 or 40 cubic inches does not make as much difference as good heads, a good carb, a good intake, enough compression (for the fuel one is going to use), a quick ignition curve, and a sealed combustion chamber, and a cam to get all of the above to play together well.
 
ir3333 said:
...so why doesn't the 318 get any respect?
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A few reasons. But if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand. I will say this: Ford fans love and build very successfully 289's, and 302's. Both less cubes than our 318. Chevy fans love and build 327's, and are flattered by their own 302's in the late 60's. For many reasons (which I wont take the time to explain), most Mopar folks not only sneer at 318, but despise the success stories with almost hatred... Just ask Spareparts.
 
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