building a mild Daily driver 318

[73golddusterkid]

^^^^As I've stated before, if mopar people loved the 318's the way Ford fans love their 302 fox bodies, there would be a whole lot more 11 second 318's on the street. Even when somebody chooses to build a 318, they are under strict instructions to build it very mildly, ya know, maybe a 15's or high 14 second car until you get a 360 or a stroker. Never, I mean NEVER plan to go fast with a teen. And, IF you do, you will be shot out of the sky like Spareparts, whose teen was one of the fastest street cars on this site. It does NOT settle well with folks that build strokers to get swallowed up by a 318. They won't cheer you, they will spite you. I love all mopar V8's, including the strokers, but it also includes the 318.

I did love seeing the looks on the gm and ford guys faces when I told them that I had a 318 under the hood. They would swear it had to a 360! I will always love the 318, even though they give up some torque. Mine in particular after the rebuild saw its fair share of street fights and many high rpm highway runs. I also had the same thought about the ford fans and their 302. As far as I figured I had 16 more cubes (or approx. 19 with the extra bore) and most people I knew in my town called it a boat anchor!

 

[AJ/FormS]

Here's something to think about in this dilemma
Say you build two zero deck,30 over short blocks;a 318 and a 360.Say you put identical heads on them that end up at a total chamber volume(heads,eyebrows, and gaskets) of exactly 79cc, and then install the same mild street cam of about [email protected],which might be a 276/284/110 cam in each, installed at 108*.
This is how it stacks up;
The 322.84; swept of 661.3, total chamber of 79. The Scr is 9.37, and the Dcr is 7.37
The 365.32 swept of 748.3, total chamber of 79. The Scr is 10.47, and the Dcr is 8.25

From this it can be seen that for the exact same money spent, you are getting 42.5 more cubes, and .88 more Dcr.
The teener will have to run iron heads to keep the heat in. The 360 could run aluminum and give up it's Dcr advantage.
In any case the 360 will have way more torque and especially more low-end torque.This means the 360 can run less gear and less TC; perhaps as much as 15%. That means the 318 will need 4.10s(more money) to launch like the 360 with 3.55s. The teener might need 15% or more TC. That means at least 400 rpm higher(again more money).

Now the upshot to this is that the 360 will be cruising (60mph) at around 2650 to the teeners 3060. And the upshot to that is the teener is burning more fuel to go the same distance, creating more vibration and noise, and wearing out it's guts at a much faster rate.
So it costs the same (actually the 360 pistons might be cheaper) to build the engines, but the teener needs gears and a TC for similar street performance, and will burn more fuel for the entire duration of it's life. So the teener ends up costing significantly more, over it's lifetime.

I offer this, not to knock the teener. It's just a simple comparo, and is meant to show just the low speed equivalent dollar to performance, where a street engine spends a huge amount of it's life.
Either one of these engines should smoke the tires all the way through first gear, with any 15" street tire you can fit into your stock Dart wheelwells.The teener will be going 51@6400, while the 360 will be going 59@6400; exclusive of TC slip.

 

[replicaracer43]

A few reasons. But if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand. I will say this: Ford fans love and build very successfully 289's, and 302's. Both less cubes than our 318. Chevy fans love and build 327's, and are flattered by their own 302's in the late 60's. For many reasons (which I wont take the time to explain), most Mopar folks not only sneer at 318, but despise the success stories with almost hatred... Just ask Spareparts.

If I am not mistaken, and I probally am.......I think spareparts was running some pretty good stuff....because he was trying to sell off a bunch of it a while back. I am thinking X block and w2 type stuff. Not exactly the "318s" being discussed here.

 

[318willrun]

AJ/Forms - not really a comparison of the 318 vs. 360. 360 is the better option, but it's more about the 318 being very capable of reliable, great performance.

replicaracer43 - I dont' know about the X block. I do know how his thread was smashed by folks without ever knowing anything about his car or him. Some even all but called him a liar. They just so happened to live close enough to race, and the guy backed out. Good thing too, because his 11 second car would have been eat'n up by the teen. I do know what his best E.T. was, and it was VERY impressive!

 

[replicaracer43]

I found the ad, he was selling a R1 block with a set of W9 heads, and a R3 engine with W8 heads........he had/has VERY fast stuff, but it aint no "teener"

 

[273]

...so why doesn't the 318 get any respect?

Cause it never came as a performance engine.

The small block family can be broken down to 3 groups 273/318, 340/360 and 5.2/5.9 based on there heads which are small port, large port and magnum.

Small port were designed with 273 in mind and are a great head for that size engine and can offer decent power potential 300+hp stock. But when the 318 came into production they were the only head available at that time and since Chrysler did expect much out of a 318 performance wise it never needed more.

But I see it in two groups
273 and 318/360/340 (360 is in the middle cause if all built with same stroke 360 would be in the middle), 318 ain't that much smaller in bore size and cubic inch to class it that different than 340/360 and has just as much potential to a point about 450hp.

True that at any given rpm the larger engine has more hp potentially and that most don't want to go over 6500 RPMs which would give you a max power about 400hp/273, 450hp/318, 475hp/340, 500hp/360 and 550hp/408 give or take. Or from a different perspective take the 400 hp recipe 10:1/750/headers/200+cfm heads and 280 cam. A 273 would be like a race engine and a 408 would be more like a truck engine and 318/340/360 would be in between powerbands would just be a few hundred RPMs apart from each other. All needing slightly different gearing and stalls.

To me a 318 is a perfect engine for a light early 4 gear'd A Body especially if deeper gears don't bother you.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Oh my GAWD.

Are books still bein written about this? Good grief. Some of yall sure aint got no home life.

 

[318willrun]

I found the ad, he was selling a R1 block with a set of W9 heads, and a R3 engine with W8 heads........he had/has VERY fast stuff, but it aint no "teener"

I think you are wrong. I'm 99% sure it was a teen. He sold the motor complete. He has a lot of parts, thus the name Spareparts. But I'm really sure he sold the 318 complete right out of his car. It was a 318..... start believing...

 

[RustyRatRod]

I think you are wrong. I'm 99% sure it was a teen. He sold the motor complete. He has a lot of parts, thus the name Spareparts. But I'm really sure he sold the 318 complete right out of his car. It was a 318..... start believing...

You caint tell um nuthin. The 318 haters are gonna hate.

 

[Abodybomber]

Good lord,it's a 318.. Build it. Internet " cabin fever" is setting in.

 

[nm9stheham]

Good lord,it's a 318.. Build it. Internet " cabin fever" is setting in.

LOL ....ain't it thu truth!

 

[318willrun]

leave us alone, were hav'n fun

 

[nm9stheham]

leave us alone, were hav'n fun

We're sending you to the garage LOL

 

[needsaresto]

Good lord,it's a 318.. Build it. Internet " cabin fever" is setting in.

Wheres the "like" button for this? Lol!!
My .02 cents,the teen has the same basic engineering as the other small block chryslers. Just needs a little help in the compression,cam and intake/exhaust departments..I really love the idea of just bolting on speed equipment to your stock bottom end. Did this a few times,and each teen I helped this way ran like a scalded cat.

 

[66fs]

Here's something to think about in this dilemma
Say you build two zero deck,30 over short blocks;a 318 and a 360.Say you put identical heads on them that end up at a total chamber volume(heads,eyebrows, and gaskets) of exactly 79cc, and then install the same mild street cam of about [email protected],which might be a 276/284/110 cam in each, installed at 108*.
This is how it stacks up;
The 322.84; swept of 661.3, total chamber of 79. The Scr is 9.37, and the Dcr is 7.37
The 365.32 swept of 748.3, total chamber of 79. The Scr is 10.47, and the Dcr is 8.25

From this it can be seen that for the exact same money spent, you are getting 42.5 more cubes, and .88 more Dcr.
The teener will have to run iron heads to keep the heat in. The 360 could run aluminum and give up it's Dcr advantage.
In any case the 360 will have way more torque and especially more low-end torque.This means the 360 can run less gear and less TC; perhaps as much as 15%. That means the 318 will need 4.10s(more money) to launch like the 360 with 3.55s. The teener might need 15% or more TC. That means at least 400 rpm higher(again more money).

Now the upshot to this is that the 360 will be cruising (60mph) at around 2650 to the teeners 3060. And the upshot to that is the teener is burning more fuel to go the same distance, creating more vibration and noise, and wearing out it's guts at a much faster rate.
So it costs the same (actually the 360 pistons might be cheaper) to build the engines, but the teener needs gears and a TC for similar street performance, and will burn more fuel for the entire duration of it's life. So the teener ends up costing significantly more, over it's lifetime.

I offer this, not to knock the teener. It's just a simple comparo, and is meant to show just the low speed equivalent dollar to performance, where a street engine spends a huge amount of it's life.
Either one of these engines should smoke the tires all the way through first gear, with any 15" street tire you can fit into your stock Dart wheelwells.The teener will be going 51@6400, while the 360 will be going 59@6400; exclusive of TC slip.

Zero Deck gives the advantage to the larger bore. You should build compression ratio for the gas octane you want to put in your tank, day after day. If that is 91 octane, then you are at about 9.0 to 1. That puts your 360 piston at least .08 in the hole, and the 318 piston .07 in the hole. The more interesting numbers are the HP gains going from the 2 barrel to the high Performance 4 barrel HP numbers. If you add the 4 barrel carb and intake, 340 cam and valve springs, on to the 360 heads you add NHRA factored 65 HP. It works the same for the 318 as long as the compression ratio is the close. And the 318 will pull to a higher RPM.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Zero Deck gives the advantage to the larger bore. You should build compression ratio for the gas octane you want to put in your tank, day after day. If that is 91 octane, then you are at about 9.0 to 1. That puts your 360 piston at least .08 in the hole, and the 318 piston .07 in the hole. The more interesting numbers are the HP gains going from the 2 barrel to the high Performance 4 barrel HP numbers. If you add the 4 barrel carb and intake, 340 cam and valve springs, on to the 360 heads you add NHRA factored 65 HP. It works the same for the 318 as long as the compression ratio is the close. And the 318 will pull to a higher RPM.

Try telling that to my 360. It goes 7200 for 11 years and at up to 11.2 Scr on nothing but 87E10.
My KB107s are .005 up out of the hole, and although the current gaskets are .039s, It has run with the .029s as well.It has never run less than 32* power-timing, and is happy at up to 36*. I have run 3 different cams in it with the same results; no detonation.

In any case my comparo had nothing to do with horsepower whatsoever.

 

[replicaracer43]

You caint tell um nuthin. The 318 haters are gonna hate.

Hey rusty, I aint hatin on a 318 man, your taking that wrong. I was just saying a "X" block stroker isn't the type of 318 being discussed here. I have had a bunch of 318s, and I never hated any of em!

 

[66fs]

Try telling that to my 360. It goes 7200 for 11 years and at up to 11.2 Scr on nothing but 87E10.
My KB107s are .005 up out of the hole, and although the current gaskets are .039s, It has run with the .029s as well.It has never run less than 32* power-timing, and is happy at up to 36*. I have run 3 different cams in it with the same results; no detonation.

In any case my comparo had nothing to do with horsepower whatsoever.

so how much $ in that motor?

 

[Infecteddog]

Try telling that to my 360. It goes 7200 for 11 years and at up to 11.2 Scr on nothing but 87E10.
My KB107s are .005 up out of the hole, and although the current gaskets are .039s, It has run with the .029s as well.It has never run less than 32* power-timing, and is happy at up to 36*. I have run 3 different cams in it with the same results; no detonation.

In any case my comparo had nothing to do with horsepower whatsoever.

Your build's not the same as someone intent not to run a cam larger than the 360 2bbl LD and trying to throw up compression while keeping the short block stock. You may not have detonation on 87, but that will not be the case on a motor with a bitty cam and no quench.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Quote from post #102
"I offer this, not to knock the teener. It's just a simple comparo, and is meant to show just the low speed equivalent dollar to performance, where a street engine spends a huge amount of it's life."

Furthermore I think you missed the 79 cc total chamber volume, I mentioned. This is a closed chamber head of about 65cc plus a5cc allowance for eyebrows plus a gasket allowance of about 9cc. Or it could be the X-heads and a .039 gasket and no eyebrows and a zero-deck.
But if you put unmilled 340/360 heads(about 72cc) on an LC teener, with the pistons down at -.137(27cc-5cc adjustment for no eyebrows), this would add 28 to 30 cc to the total chamber volume.The new Scr would be (661.3 + 79 +30)/(79 + 30) = 7.07...... I'm not even gonna bother calculating the Dcr on that boat-anchor.
Geewhiz I had to know. With the same 276cam with an ICA of 66*, the Dcr works out to 5.69, and the cylinder pressure to 99.5psi.
And that takes me all the way back to page one where I think it was that I mentioned the zero deck thing.
But hey, if ..........here we go again................

Let me recap where I'm coming from. When I put virgin X-heads on my 73 LC-teener with the drowning pistons, and the 340 cam,etc ; it was a total dog off the line,and didn't start moving 'til north of 4000rpm. I had to band-aid it with gears and a higher-stall TC, and it still was lazy. Now this was a very long time ago, (about 35 years ago), before I knew anything about Dcr. When I learned about Dcr and V/P index, it became obvious what the problem had been. But that car was long-gone.

 

[66fs]

Try telling that to my 360. It goes 7200 for 11 years and at up to 11.2 Scr on nothing but 87E10.
My KB107s are .005 up out of the hole, and although the current gaskets are .039s, It has run with the .029s as well.It has never run less than 32* power-timing, and is happy at up to 36*. I have run 3 different cams in it with the same results; no detonation.

In any case my comparo had nothing to do with horsepower whatsoever.

I assume you have a high dollar, aluminum head, large cam 360 to be able to run on 87 octane fuel with those pistons. I doubt it is helpful to suggest this build, without careful choices, to make it streetable. Certainly not what I'd ever build and not a mild daily driver. You can build a "mild daily driver 318" a lot easier and a whole lot cheaper. Horsepower numbers are from NHRA factored numbers to give approximate gains for known combinations. Steetable and factory High Performance, so relatively mild. Finally, if you put your heads, cam, and valvetrain on a similar prepped 318 it would pull past your 7200, which is what I was saying.

 

[AJ/FormS]

66
Again you missed it. I was not suggesting this build. It was a comparo of dollars spent to results; showing for the same money spent, yadayadayada.

And how did I introduce it?..."Here's something to think about in this dilemma"

Maybe I'm denser than I imagined. I'm sorry if I'm not getting it.

 

[66fs]

66
Again you missed it. I was not suggesting this build. It was a comparo of dollars spent to results; showing for the same money spent, yadayadayada.

And how did I introduce it?..."Here's something to think about in this dilemma"

Maybe I'm denser than I imagined. I'm sorry if I'm not getting it.

Your initial thought is the problem. We don't start with a zero deck piston. We shoot for a compression ratio. Like most things, the more we think about something, the closer we get to what we want. No worries.

 

[318willrun]

Without re-reading through all the postings (and some fun/good topics here), this is why I said "a way back" that a person has to know what they want out of there car. What does "mild" mean to them? 15.50's at 85 mph? Laying a 20 ft. black mark? It is so much easier to put together a recipe if known what the purpose of the car, and what level of performance would put a smile on the owners face.

 

[318willrun]

I'm going to "in the near future" do just what is always asked here on FABO time and time again. This thread is the perfect example. I'm going to do a "true budget with real dollars spent" LA 318 "bolt-on" performance upgrades without rebuilding an untouched short block. I'm starting with a 318 2bbl, right where a lot of newbies enter our hobby. I will not ask for opinions, but rather show what I spend, and what I did. I will have "realistic" expectations, and I will run it at the drag way to see if they were met. I will also check the mpg. Should be fun.