Burning oil

[Charlesvolare]

Are you hitting this thing with a bottle?

Not yet, but that's the plan eventually The first time it went together was the first time I'd ever put an engine together. Gapped the rings to the bare minimum that kb recommended, if that. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't much and I'm surprised it lasted as long as it had.

Since I first out it together it's been through a Mopar cam that ate a lobe, a comp 268h grind, a comp roller it has now. Went through and put in a set of bearings after the first cam. A few sets of head gaskets before I finally got the heads milled flat. Two 904's, a rear end, at least three sets of rear tires. Foot on the floor a good 80% of the time. I drive it hard and it's been through a lot.

 

[512Stroker]

Not yet, but that's the plan eventually The first time it went together was the first time I'd ever put an engine together. Gapped the rings to the bare minimum that kb recommended, if that. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't much and I'm surprised it lasted as long as it had.

Since I first out it together it's been through a Mopar cam that ate a lobe, a comp 268h grind, a comp roller it has now. Went through and put in a set of bearings after the first cam. A few sets of head gaskets before I finally got the heads milled flat. Two 904's, a rear end, at least three sets of rear tires. Foot on the floor a good 80% of the time. I drive it hard and it's been through a lot.

I see
You need to get with JJ Da Boss and figure out a drive line for your car.

 

[AJ/FormS]

You got power brakes? if yes, how's the brake fluid level?

 

[Charlesvolare]

You got power brakes? if yes, how's the brake fluid level?

Thanks for the remind, it needed a top-off. Both the master cylinder and booster were replaced last spring. No external leaks and vacuum hose is dry. I'm assuming you're thinking it's pulling brake fluid from the booster somehow?

 

[AJ/FormS]

Thanks for the remind, it needed a top-off. Both the master cylinder and booster were replaced last spring. No external leaks and vacuum hose is dry. I'm assuming you're thinking it's pulling brake fluid from the booster somehow?

Yes I was wondering, but it looks like you're ahead of me. It's not common, and not easy, but it has happened.

 

[Wyrmrider]

b 4 pulling it down do a cycle of full throttle from low speed to some illegal speed then coast back to slow
10 times
have someone behind to watch for smoke puffs
then wipe the exhaust with a white cloth (also wipe first and clean with soem brakecleen)
pull the plugs and retest the compression
most likely mech problem but sometimes a rebreakin fixes
good luck
any quench? how much?
detonation can kill anything

 

[Charlesvolare]

I've been driving the car every day for over a week and it's seemed to have possibly stopped. I haven't noticed anything lately and can make it through one of these 2 mile long drive thru lines without seeing anything. It's very strange and I'll keep an eye out for it still, but whatever was happening self-healed? I'll keep you guys updated if it does it again.

 

[pishta]

Moly rings on a self honed cylinder...what RA do you think your hone was good to...Stone or dingleball? Maybe just a delayed break in. If i were to clean up a cylinder with a rehone, stone or ball, id think iron rings would be a safer bet with their seating ability and obvious break in time unless you have had good results with this moly/stone hone combo before.

 

[512Stroker]

I've been driving the car every day for over a week and it's seemed to have possibly stopped. I haven't noticed anything lately and can make it through one of these 2 mile long drive thru lines without seeing anything. It's very strange and I'll keep an eye out for it still, but whatever was happening self-healed? I'll keep you guys updated if it does it again.

b 4 pulling it down do a cycle of full throttle from low speed to some illegal speed then coast back to slow
10 times
have someone behind to watch for smoke puffs

OP did you try this recommendation?
I thought it had a lot of merit.

 

[Charlesvolare]

OP did you try this recommendation?
I thought it had a lot of merit.

Not yet, I was going to borrow my buddies GoPro and stick it under the car. Still probably will just to be sure.

 

[Charlesvolare]

It's been a little over a month of no smoke and it's started back again....

During this time I've driven the car a lot, including 700 interstate miles in one day. With my 3.55 gearing I cruised most of it at 3000rpm/65mph. No issues.

I recently installed a locker and new rear leafs, so today I spent most of the afternoon driving, a lot down gravel and dirt roads to test everything out. A lot of relatively low rpm, low speed driving. I did go through a tunnel and rev it a few times but nothing crazy. No high rpm pulls or anything. I noticed sitting at a red light on my way home it was smoking again.

Is it possible to fuel wash or unseat/unmate the rings to the bore by reving? Carb was completely rebuilt less than a month ago and working properly so maybe something with oiling the cylinder walls?

Another things is I changed the oil last week and it has about the same time on the fresh oil as it did the last time it started. Maybe an issue with the oil itself? It's Driven GP-1 15w-40 synthetic

 

[yellow rose]

It's been a little over a month of no smoke and it's started back again....

During this time I've driven the car a lot, including 700 interstate miles in one day. With my 3.55 gearing I cruised most of it at 3000rpm/65mph. No issues.

I recently installed a locker and new rear leafs, so today I spent most of the afternoon driving, a lot down gravel and dirt roads to test everything out. A lot of relatively low rpm, low speed driving. I did go through a tunnel and rev it a few times but nothing crazy. No high rpm pulls or anything. I noticed sitting at a red light on my way home it was smoking again.

Is it possible to fuel wash or unseat/unmate the rings to the bore by reving? Carb was completely rebuilt less than a month ago and working properly so maybe something with oiling the cylinder walls?

Another things is I changed the oil last week and it has about the same time on the fresh oil as it did the last time it started. Maybe an issue with the oil itself? It's Driven GP-1 15w-40 synthetic

The rings should have been seated 2 minutes after break in, and I don’t care about surface finish and ring material. If they haven’t seated by 2, 3 minutes MAX they aren’t coming in. It’s junk. Pull it apart and fix it.

Any oil should work. This nonsense about rings taking miles and miles to break in is at best a giant lie. Every ring manufacturer I know of either belt laps or barrel laps EVERY ring before it goes in the box. Been that way for 30 years. Or more.

I hate to tell you the truth because the truth is wildly unpopular. It’s not going to fix itself. Take it apart, deglaze the bores, buy some cast iron rings and when you put it together, use a very small amount of oil on the skirts ONLY. Nothing on the rings. The rings go in dry.

When you start it, the rings will be seated and it won’t smoke or burn oil.

This ain’t rocket science. The rings are done. Replace them.

 

[Charlesvolare]

The rings should have been seated 2 minutes after break in, and I don’t care about surface finish and ring material. If they haven’t seated by 2, 3 minutes MAX they aren’t coming in. It’s junk. Pull it apart and fix it.

Any oil should work. This nonsense about rings taking miles and miles to break in is at best a giant lie. Every ring manufacturer I know of either belt laps or barrel laps EVERY ring before it goes in the box. Been that way for 30 years. Or more.

I hate to tell you the truth because the truth is wildly unpopular. It’s not going to fix itself. Take it apart, deglaze the bores, buy some cast iron rings and when you put it together, use a very small amount of oil on the skirts ONLY. Nothing on the rings. The rings go in dry.

When you start it, the rings will be seated and it won’t smoke or burn oil.

This ain’t rocket science. The rings are done. Replace them.

I agree with that, but are you sure it'd be rings with it starting and stopping and starting again? I'm still trying to figure it out I guess. It ran perfect for over a month, 1,500 miles probably. I'm stumped on what else it could be though. Guides wouldn't un-wear themselves, maybe seals could swell and unswell?

 

[Charlesvolare]

Rings were seated during initial break-in, oil changed and GP-1 oil added. Great for the first 500 mile break-in

Did the first oil change, drove hard, started smoking. Smoked slightly for a few weeks and then stopped. Drove many miles, was hard on it, no problems.

Did the second oil change at around 2,000 miles since rebuild (odometer stopped working). About 30 miles of light driving, starts burning oil again.

That's were I'm at. Still need to stick a go-pro under the car.

It never burned enough to need to add any oil, only happens when sitting at idle for a bit on a hot engine. Doesn't do it when the engines cold

 

[yellow rose]

Rings were seated during initial break-in, oil changed and GP-1 oil added. Great for the first 500 mile break-in

Did the first oil change, drove hard, started smoking. Smoked slightly for a few weeks and then stopped. Drove many miles, was hard on it, no problems.

Did the second oil change at around 2,000 miles since rebuild (odometer stopped working). About 30 miles of light driving, starts burning oil again.

That's were I'm at. Still need to stick a go-pro under the car.

Rings don’t lose seal because you changed oil. But let’s logically work through this.

So the rings are seated, and you change the oil. Now they lose their seat? How? The only way possible is they were never seated.

Listen, there is no magic bullet with rings. They are either seated and work, or they aren’t and won’t. Some oils will seal the rings better than others, but that doesn’t mean the rings have lost their “seat”, which is an abused term. Like I posted above, even the very cheapest rings you can get are pre-seated before they go in the box.

They should be in and done in less than 5 minutes. After that, you can use any oil you want and the rings should still seal.

Just curious...did you put oil on the rings when you put it together?

 

[Charlesvolare]

Rings don’t lose seal because you changed oil. But let’s logically work through this.

So the rings are seated, and you change the oil. Now they lose their seat? How? The only way possible is they were never seated.

Listen, there is no magic bullet with rings. They are either seated and work, or they aren’t and won’t. Some oils will seal the rings better than others, but that doesn’t mean the rings have lost their “seat”, which is an abused term. Like I posted above, even the very cheapest rings you can get are pre-seated before they go in the box.

They should be in and done in less than 5 minutes. After that, you can use any oil you want and the rings should still seal.

Just curious...did you put oil on the rings when you put it together?

I didn't think it had anything to do with the oil change until it started again today and realized I had just changed the oil, just like before. Could be completely unrelated but that's the only additional variable to how I've been treating it since. I've driven it long and hard without problems, changed the oil and drive easy and its back. I don't know though.

I'm 99% sure the rings were seated properly and if they don't unseat then I guess it's not a ring issue. I oiled the cylinder walls and the skirt when assembling.

I'm going to try to get a camera underneath while driving tomorrow which should help tell if it's the valve seals or not, but those aren't too old.

 

[yellow rose]

I didn't think it had anything to do with the oil change until it started again today and realized I had just changed the oil, just like before. Could be completely unrelated but that's the only additional variable to how I've been treating it since. I've driven it long and hard without problems, changed the oil and drive easy and its back. I don't know though.

I'm 99% sure the rings were seated properly and if they don't unseat then I guess it's not a ring issue. I oiled the cylinder walls and the skirt when assembling.

I'm going to try to get a camera underneath while driving tomorrow which should help tell if it's the valve seals or not, but those aren't too old.

If it’s valve seals/guides just warm it up and drive it a bit. The park it and let it idle. If its the seals/guides it will smoke it’s guts out. If it doesn’t, it’s not that.

 

[Charlesvolare]

If it’s valve seals/guides just warm it up and drive it a bit. The park it and let it idle. If its the seals/guides it will smoke it’s guts out. If it doesn’t, it’s not that.

I originally thought it was that, the heads probably have close to 200,000 miles, but valves and valve seals are new. I put trans fluid in the oil first time around to try to swell the seals and it didn't seem to do anything. But maybe it just took a little while? The biggest thing with that is how it would just happen all of the sudden. Guides wear slowly. But once it stopped the first time I just forgot about it. It should smoke on decel too if it was guides/seals so I'll see that once I get the camera under it.

 

[Charlesvolare]

And nothing on cold start

 

[AJ/FormS]

What if it's not the rings or the guides or the valve seals
but rather, the PCV system sucking liquid oil out of the valve cover. I mean IDK how that could happen,(well I do but that's another story), but it's just a thought.
If your crankcase is overfull the crank will whip the oil into a frenzy and the PCV will be happy to pass it right along. Since both times it happened right after an oil change, I'd be checking into that

Just flip the PCV out of the valve cover and watch the hole. If your rings or guides are done, yur gonna be sending smoke to the moon. Vast quantities of it.
But if you get only air with a lil oil, then look elsewhere. Lots of air with only a lil oil dos not mean yur out of the woods tho. Liquid oil splashing out would be bad,very bad.

 

[Charlesvolare]

What if it's not the rings or the guides or the valve seals
but rather, the PCV system sucking liquid oil out of the valve cover. I mean IDK how that could happen,(well I do but that's another story), but it's just a thought.
Just flip the PCV out of the valve cover and watch the hole. If your ring or guides are done, yur gonna be sending smoke to the moon.

I disconnected the pcv and all of that stuff when it did this the first time. Didn't really affect anything.

 

[512Stroker]

I disconnected the pcv and all of that stuff when it did this the first time. Didn't really affect anything.

I am with AJ
You have something strange going on, rings dont fix themselves the go bad again.
Have you run a compression test? Or cylinder leak down test?

 

[Charlesvolare]

I am with AJ
You have something strange going on, rings dont fix themselves the go bad again.
Have you run a compression test? Or cylinder leak down test?

I have done both, several times. The compression test did give some concern for #5 and #8, but nothing to where I wanted to tear into the engine. Leak down was pretty even between all cylinders if I recall correctly.

 

[Louie70Dart]

It was my belief that with bad valve seals you would get a ball of smoke at start up, and get worse over time with oil consumption going up also because of it. Eventually it would get so bad you could see the puff of blue smoke whenever you let off the gas.

 

[yellow rose]

It was my belief that with bad valve seals you would get a ball of smoke at start up, and get worse over time with oil consumption going up also because of it. Eventually it would get so bad you could see the puff of blue smoke whenever you let off the gas.

Usually, any time the vacuum is high you’ll see the engine smoke if it’s guides/seals.