Buy American....

[bruceo2011]

Unions currently comprise less then 10% of the work force. Can't blame our current mess on them. Watch 'Shark Tank" some time and the bottom line from the "Sharks" is how can something be made cheaper and sell for more. They won't invest in you until you have it made overseas cheaply. One gal was making a new style of "sippie cup" for little kids and was making it in the USA and had that on the packaging. No one was willing to invest in her because she would not have it made cheaper overseas and risk quality issues.

 

[inkjunkie]

ink that's a lot of cheddar for a set of forks. sheesh i thought car parts were expensive

That it is....

good parts do cost. Doesn't matter whether its a bike, car, diesel truck. Ink, good luck in your quest for a balance of reliability, comfort and reasonable cost.

Called a few different retail shops. Common thing they all said is that the reason the "overseas" stuff cost what it does is because they are flat out junk. The one fellow told me that other than the fork seals none of the parts are generic so if something goes wrong with them, after the warranty, it is easier to just buy another set. This shop mentioned the American Suspension parts....said that they are the only front ends he will use on his own bikes....unless it is a throw away bike. Told me that the China ones will often leak, and there is no fix for them. Also said the chrome is very short lived. And, in his opinion, they ride terribly. Told me he can save me 15-20% over the listed prices...I know where I will be buying them from.

Unions currently comprise less then 10% of the work force. Can't blame our current mess on them. Watch 'Shark Tank" some time and the bottom line from the "Sharks" is how can something be made cheaper and sell for more. They won't invest in you until you have it made overseas cheaply. One gal was making a new style of "sippie cup" for little kids and was making it in the USA and had that on the packaging. No one was willing to invest in her because she would not have it made cheaper overseas and risk quality issues.

Only union I have experience with is the Postal ones. And they are a complete effin joke. They are known to start all sorts of rumors....and when they do not materialize run around patting themselves on the back claiming to have stopped Armageddon from happening. When contract negotiating season hits generally speaking the Post Office dictates the terms.....and the Unions just agree to them more or less. But this is not before they meet somewhere, often in Vegas, for a few days on the dues of the members. When the union officials come back to work first thing that is heard is about how much they drank or gambled. When the USPS agreed to having the unions part of the agreement stipulates that if union membership, it is an open shop agreement, drops below a certain percentage the USPS reserves the right to disband the Union. When I was there I saw a few memos posted by the APWU that stated they were in danger of being disbanded dues to members dropping out of the union.
For a while the Mailhandlers union had a non-member list posted....and I was on it. One of the Stewarts came up and asked me if I had a problem with that list....I responded that I did....my problem was that I was not in the number 1 spot. He took offense when I told him that I was not afraid in any way, nor was I going to be intimidated. I was getting divorced/filing bankruptcy at that time. Told the guy that was processing both of them for me about this....Larry informed me that posting that list was a violation of privacy and that he would take care of it. A few weeks later the list was removed and a letter of apology was posted that made mention of Larry's letter...I had not laughed that hard in a while...

 

[ir3333]

All good points. ..You can make it in China for $1.00 or in North America for $20.00 and your company will go under. ..It's a natural progression of a country's economics,it's just the way it is! An "old timer" who's opinion i held in hi regard as a young man 40 years ago told me "unions will be the death of this country" ...that may have been part of our current economical problems?

Google and watch "Park Avenue,money,power and the American Dream."

 

[bobscuda67]

Unions have nothing to do with our problems. It's greed and corruption at the management level of corporations and government. They blame unions for our problems to divert attention from the actual cause. Until people wake up and speak out things won't change.
Any parts made in china are junk and I try and buy American whenever I can. I can't understand people that don't support their own country. Only hurts them and their family's in the long run.

 

[Frankie]

Unions have nothing to do with our problems.

I disagree. Granted, they aren't THE issue, but, they are a significant part of the problem.

America is well recognized around the world for having the highest paid workers on the planet with the highest production costs, and the lowest production. In international circles, American labor is looked upon as a high cost, low yield work force.

I know no one wants to hear that, but, that's the reality.

Further, as the American automobile industry has proved repeatedly, higher paid labor does not automatically equate to a better quality product. That's been a fallacy propagated by American Labor unions for over 100 years.

While Labor unions did, most certainly fill a necessary void, at one time, many of the perks the unions fought for in the first half of the 20th century are now laws.

To give you an idea of how "faithful" labor unions and union workers are, I can relate, with first hand knowledge, a story that happened about 20 years ago.

I worked for a small company with about 300 employees. The labor pool, largely truck drivers, fork lift operators, and warehouse workers decided to organize. The contacted the teamsters. A Union rep came, held a couple of meetings, and then demanded recognition by the company.

I sat in on the negotiations, and they were pretty much standard. Different pay rates for different job descriptions, periodic wage increases at set levels by job description on the contract anniversary dates, set holidays, a seniority list, etc.

A contract was agreed upon, signed and put into effect. But there was one thing that I refused to do, and there was nothing the Union, it's lawyers, and it's "representatives" (inferred thugs) could not get me to agree on. I refused to allow the company bookkeepers deduct union dues from the workers pay checks. I fully recognized the union and it's contract, but I wasn't going to do their dues collections for them. That was an item that I had specifically excluded from the contract, the negations, and the verbal agreements.

Each month the union would send a representative to the job site, at the end of the day on the First Payday of the month to collect union dues. The men had to pay the dues in cash, or check, or however they wanted to, and in turn, the rep wold make their accounts "Member in good standing".

It wasn't too long before some of the employees were becoming delinquent in their dues.
It seemed that when the dues was deducted from the pay check BEFORE the employee got his money, that is fine. No issues, but, when the employee actually has to cash or deposit his check, and then personally hand some money to the union, it's quite a different story.

Over the next 18 month, more and more "unionize employees" became delinquent in their membership. By the end of 2 years, no one in the company was paying union dues.
It was a decision the employees made. Not management.

Further, each time a "unionized employee" became 90 in arears in his dues, the Union Demanded I not allow them to work. Well, I'm sorry, but Georgia is a "Right to work" state, and the union cannot legally stop anyone from working on the job. They didn't, either.

...So much for 'loyalty, by either the union or the employees.

btw, and not to change the subject: That experience has led me to believe that we should also do away with withholding income taxes. Withholding is simple and clean, and many people really have no idea how much they pay in taxes. Sure, they might moan and groan about the difference in their paycheck, but, since it "money they never had, they don't miss it". Well, perhaps they SHOULD miss it.

Perhaps it's time that we stop automatic withholding, and start making everyone, from the CEO to the janitor pay their own taxes each month, or quarter.

Just as the Union employees above, realized how much the union was costing them when they had to physically pay that bill after having that money in their hand, I'm pretty sure most American's would feel the same way, when they are forced to "give back" 15% to 30% of their paycheck, to an over spending, over taxing and a frivolous government.

In my opinion, If the American tax payer had to write that check every month, each and every one of us would be far more diligent, and critical of how the government spends that money, and how much of our earned income they require to cover their ideas of how our money should be spent.

Most people are far too complacent about how much money the government wastes each year, where it's going, and how much they take. I'd be willing to wager that if you had to write a check each month, to the government, we'd soon be seeing tax reforms, the likes of which this country has never seen.

Just a thought.

I know return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[inkjunkie]

I disagree. Granted, they aren't THE issue, but, they are a significant part of the problem.

America is well recognized around the world for having the highest paid employees on the planet with the highest production costs, and the lowest production. In international circles, American labor is looked upon as a high cost, low yield work force.

I know no one wants to hear that, but, that's the reality.

Further, as the American automobile industry has proved repeatedly, higher paid labor does not automatically equate to a better quality product. That's been a fallacy propagated by American Labor unions for over 100 years.

While Labor unions did, most certainly fill a necessary void, at one time, many of the perks the unions fought for in the first half of the 20th century are now laws.

To give you an idea of how "faithful" labor unions and union workers are, I can relate, with first hand knowledge, a story that happened about 20 years ago.

I worked for a small company with about 300 employees. The labor pool, largely truck drivers, fork lift operators, and warehouse workers decided to organize. The contacted the teamsters. A Union rep came, held a couple of meetings, and then demanded recognition by the company.

I sat in on the negotiations, and they were pretty much standard. Different pay rates for different job descriptions, periodic wage increases at set levels by job description on the contract anniversary dates, set holidays, a seniority list, etc.

A contract was agreed upon, signed and put into effect. But there was one thing that I refused to do, and there was nothing the Union, it's lawyers, and it's "representatives" (inferred thugs) could not get me to agree on. I refused to allow the company bookkeepers deduct union dues from the workers pay checks. I fully recognized the union and it's contract, but I wasn't going to do their dues collections for them. That was an item that I had specifically excluded from the contract, the negations, and the verbal agreements.

Each month the union would send a representative to the job site, at the end of the day on the First Payday of the month to collect union dues. The men had to pay the dues in cash, or check, or however they wanted to, and in turn, the rep wold make their accounts "Member in good standing".

It wasn't too long before some of the employees were becoming delinquent in their dues.
It seemed that when the dues was deducted from the pay check BEFORE the employee got his money, that is fine. No issues, but, when the employee actually has to cash or deposit his check, and then personally hand some money to the union, it's quite a different story.

Over the next 18 month, more and more "unionize employees" became delinquent in their membership. By the end of 2 years, no one in the company was paying union dues.
It was a decision the employees made. Not management.

Further, each time a "unionized employee" became 90 in arears in his dues, the Union Demanded I not allow them to work. Well, I'm sorry, but Georgia is a "Right to work" state, and the union cannot legally stop anyone from working on the job. They didn't, either.

...So much for 'loyalty, by either the union or the employees.

btw, and not to change the subject: That experience has led me to believe that we should also do away with withholding income taxes. Withholding is simple and clean, and many people really have no idea how much they pay in taxes. Sure, they might moan and groan about the difference in their paycheck, but, since it "money they never had, they don't miss it". Well, perhaps they SHOULD miss it.

Perhaps it's time that we stop automatic withholding, and start making everyone, from the CEO to the janitor pay their own taxes each month, or quarter.

Just as the Union employees above, realized how much the union was costing them when they had to physically pay that bill after having that money in their hand, I'm pretty sure most American's would feel the same way, when they are forced to "give back" 15% to 30% of their paycheck, to an over spending, over taxing and a frivolous government.

In my opinion, If the American tax payer had to write that check every month, each and every one of us would be far more diligent, and critical of how the government spends that money, and how much of our earned income they require to cover their ideas of how our money should be spent.

Most people are far too complacent about how much money the government wastes each year, where it's going, and how much they take. I'd be willing to wager that if you had to write a check each month, to the government, we'd soon be seeing tax reforms, the likes of which this country has never seen.

Just a thought.

I know return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Highest paid....used to have this discussion with a former co-worker, Tim, at the USPS. Was not about the private sector but the USPS. I was getting paid a base salary of just over $25@hour because of the time I had put in...to stand there and watch a machine cancel stamps. There was people that were getting paid close to that for sitting at a table to put the mail back together that I wrecked. We had a multi tiered management system that started out at 65k@year or so...and only really needed our actual supervisor....the real problem with the USPS is the amount of $$ that the staff makes. Management of course blames the financial mess on the craft employees. There was several areas in the facility I worked at, which was one of the larger ones in the nation that had 6 employees per boss...on a busy day. "Privatize" gets tossed around quite a bit in the USPS....it may be what is needed for it to survive....Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Back to the O.P....I don't know overseas quality of H/D parts,all that well. In
the long running: Can you get replacement parts for the overseas built products, consistent & long term? I have bought one off brand equipment,that parts were not available 3-4 years later. That can become a P.I.T.A.. More waiting & judgment sucks,plan for the long haul (J.M.O).
Edit: If you decided on overseas, buy all rebuilding kits needed in extra

He could replace the entire assembly twice and still come out ahead!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Ford is owned by a british company, dodge,chrysler,jeep and ram is owned by Fiat which is Italian, chevy has Mexico building the corvettes and who knows who owns them now after the government sold the last stock they held after buy out lol the whole system is in critical condition! Sorry this turned political INJUNKIE but facts are facts and if nobody ever discusses it then it will continue to get worse especially for our kids and grandkids!

NO, LIE! Corvettes are built in Bowling Green, Kentucky, and have been for 30+ years!

 

[abodyjoe]

It wasn't too long before some of the employees were becoming delinquent in their dues.
It seemed that when the dues was deducted from the pay check BEFORE the employee got his money, that is fine. No issues, but, when the employee actually has to cash or deposit his check, and then personally hand some money to the union, it's quite a different story.

do it to medical coverage and i'll bet the just as many guys can't come up with the money either.. union or not. there are too many stupid asses out there that can not control their money properly... i know union and nonunion guys that have no retirement savings. ya can't fix stupid man. really has nothing to do with them being union or non union...


i'm sure unions are not needed in every field. hell whats a desk jockey need a union for?? but places where someone can get killed in their line of work and management rushing or making up their own safety rules in order to get things done faster not safer its nice to have the union backing. yea yea yea a lot of the things are laws now.. where ya getting the money to get those laws enforced??? at least the union guys have the union lawyers and all to stand up for them when a legit reason comes along..

there are legit arguments for both sides of the union/ non union thing..

 

[lilcuda]

The problem with "Made in America" is that it doesn't guarantee a quality product. My wife and I just got back from vacation and we rented a brand new Chevy Cruze which is made in Lordstown, OH. We own a 2009 Honda Accord, which was also built in Ohio. Guess which car is better?

Not the Chevy Cruze.

 

[inkjunkie]

He could replace the entire assembly twice and still come out ahead!

Thing is, from talking to a few folks over the past couple of days, is I would be replacing the front end on a regular basis if you want to put any faith in what they told me. Once the warranty expires, which would happen before I even put a mile on them getting parts for the import forks is damn near impossible. Everything in them is unique to themselves. And if I did not have to replace them due to a mechanical issue the chrome on them is toast in under 3 years or so. I did find out there is another source for a good front end...
http://www.storzperf.com/jpgs/page13.html
they are however even more pricey....and the shop I spoke with can not get a deal on them. If it were not for needing a pair of high dollar rotors I might use the front end from http://www.motorcyclemetal.com/index.html
but the front end will be right around 2k, plus the rotors at another $7-800.....and then a few other trivial things, a fender bracket being one of them. The American Suspension front end will cost me in the area of $1600 plus shipping. No leaks, a better ride, sexy as hell triple clamps, hidden brake line....
Bike as it sits right now is nothing but Custom Chrome parts......all of them are "overseas" stuff. Forks are drooling, chrome is peeling/hazy. Motor and trans both dribble & drool some. Not very impressed with them.....

 

[Frankie]

ya can't fix stupid man. really has nothing to do with them being union or non union...

Precisely. What I was pointing out was that
1. Joining the union seemed to be a good idea, as long as someone else took care of the details.
2. The negotiation was simple, because just about everything the union demanded was either already law, or the employees already had.
3. Money ended up being the one thing that both the union and the members wanted. The union didn't want those members to work, if they weren't paying their dues. I on the other hand, didn't care about their union dues, as long as the guy did his job well.
4 the idea of having to take the responsibility to pay the union dues,, after receiving their paychecks, didn't seem to be a worth while proposition to the laborers, as nearly all of them eventually stopped to the pont where the union reps stopped showing up to collect. The remaining few workers who were still paying their dues and remaining in good standing eventually had no one to give their money, too.

I'm sure unions are not needed in every field. hell whats a desk jockey need a union for?? but places where someone can get killed in their line of work and management rushing or making up their own safety rules in order to get things done faster not safer its nice to have the union backing. yea yea yea a lot of the things are laws now.. where ya getting the money to get those laws enforced???

Remember, union or no union, most of what you hear about bad safety practices, are breeches of company policy.

All business, from offices to mines have to meet ALL applicable laws for that industry. As I stated earlier, most of what the early unions fought for is now law, or regulated by either OSHA, or the EPA. Further, most cities and municipalities, counties, and states, also have similar organizations to monitor safety. On top of that, insurance companies require certain standards be met, too.

It's nearly impossible for a legal business, to violate safety laws, codes, regulations, requirements, and standards. The unions were once the only way of monitoring safety, that is no longer the case.

at least the union guys have the union lawyers and all to stand up for them when a legit reason comes along.. there are legit arguments for both sides of the union/ non union thing..

Again, no longer necessary. Even non union employees can go to binding arbitration, or have lawyers appointed via the state's Labor department.

 

[Jarlaxle]

The problem with "Made in America" is that it doesn't guarantee a quality product. My wife and I just got back from vacation and we rented a brand new Chevy Cruze which is made in Lordstown, OH. We own a 2009 Honda Accord, which was also built in Ohio. Guess which car is better?

Not the Chevy Cruze.

The Accord is a $25K mid-size car...the Cruze is a $17K compact. Comparing the two is, to be charitable, ridiculous!

 

[Jarlaxle]

Thing is, from talking to a few folks over the past couple of days, is I would be replacing the front end on a regular basis if you want to put any faith in what they told me. Once the warranty expires, which would happen before I even put a mile on them getting parts for the import forks is damn near impossible. Everything in them is unique to themselves. And if I did not have to replace them due to a mechanical issue the chrome on them is toast in under 3 years or so. I did find out there is another source for a good front end...
http://www.storzperf.com/jpgs/page13.html
they are however even more pricey....and the shop I spoke with can not get a deal on them. If it were not for needing a pair of high dollar rotors I might use the front end from http://www.motorcyclemetal.com/index.html
but the front end will be right around 2k, plus the rotors at another $7-800.....and then a few other trivial things, a fender bracket being one of them. The American Suspension front end will cost me in the area of $1600 plus shipping. No leaks, a better ride, sexy as hell triple clamps, hidden brake line....
Bike as it sits right now is nothing but Custom Chrome parts......all of them are "overseas" stuff. Forks are drooling, chrome is peeling/hazy. Motor and trans both dribble & drool some. Not very impressed with them.....

Just one reason I absolutely despise chrome on a motorcycle. I love my Burgman!

 

[abodyjoe]

It's nearly impossible for a legal business, to violate safety laws, codes, regulations, requirements, and standards. The unions were once the only way of monitoring safety, that is no longer the case.

bullshit.. i see it just about everyday here... and a lot of guys are afraid to say anything because of possible losing their job..

Again, no longer necessary. Even non union employees can go to binding arbitration, or have lawyers appointed via the state's Labor department.

thanks but i'll take the killer union lawyer over a state guy.. thats as bad as a public defendant..

Precisely. What I was pointing out was that
1. Joining the union seemed to be a good idea, as long as someone else took care of the details.
2. The negotiation was simple, because just about everything the union demanded was either already law, or the employees already had.
3. Money ended up being the one thing that both the union and the members wanted. The union didn't want those members to work, if they weren't paying their dues. I on the other hand, didn't care about their union dues, as long as the guy did his job well.
4 the idea of having to take the responsibility to pay the union dues,, after receiving their paychecks, didn't seem to be a worth while proposition to the laborers, as nearly all of them eventually stopped to the pont where the union reps stopped showing up to collect. The remaining few workers who were still paying their dues and remaining in good standing eventually had no one to give their money, too.

like i said.. do the same thing with their medical or even their 401k and i bet you get similar results.. some guys are just stupid.. i work with quite a few of them and sounds like you have a whole staff of them..

 

[inkjunkie]

Just one reason I absolutely despise chrome on a motorcycle. I love my Burgman!

I am planning on a lot of powder coating....not a big fan of chrome either. Buy import forks & they will be chromed....the USA ones will not be....

 

[funwithfuel]

Ohlins gold tubes ...... sexy!

 

[Frankie]

bullshit.. i see it just about everyday here... and a lot of guys are afraid to say anything because of possible losing their job...

First of all, there is nothing in what I said for you to get pissed off about. All I'm doing is merely presenting the facts of the matter, over what most people believe to be true. No more. It's not personal, and it's not binding. it's just a discussion.

Regarding your comment: " I see it just about every day...", If that's so, and you don't do anything about it, than you are as much at fault as the business you claim is violating the safety laws. You have a responsibility to your fellow workers report such violations.
OSHA, EPA, and other government agencies allow, and accept anonymous reports of violations. Especially those endangering life. Making the claim of fearing for your job is not only unnecessary, as an anonymous report, would only involve the business name and the violation, so there is no risk of the "reporter's" name even becoming available.

thanks but i'll take the killer union lawyer over a state guy..

That's fine, and it's certainly your prerogative. I'm not giving you instructions, I'm merely stating that Most, and by that I mean approximately 90%, of what you pay union dues for, is now available to the American laborer, free, as it IS law, not a "union perk".

...thats as bad as a public defendant.. like i said.. do the same thing with their medical or even their 401k and i bet you get similar results.. some guys are just stupid.. i work with quite a few of them and sounds like you have a whole staff of them..

Again, the choice of lawyers is your prerogative. I've known union employees to fire the union lawyers, because of exactly what you just mentioned. Most are as bad as public defenders. They get paid the same amount, win or lose.

The biggest issue I see with unions is that both unionized employees, and non-unionized employees in the same company develop an "Us vs. them" attitude. I doubt that union or not, realize the stupidity of that mentality. The fact is that both the unionized workers, and the non-unionized workers work for, are paid by the same company, and if they want to continue getting a paycheck, they both better do everything possible to assure the company's success and longevity.

Union mentality: Meaning, the employee believes that he/she work for the union. You do not. The following is pretty much universally understood, no matter which union you belong to, No matter how your contract was written, the following applies.

The Job. The job you do, is owned by, and completely belongs to the company. It's not "yours", and it's not the "union's".
You are "hired" and can be "fired" by the Company, not the union.

Company employee Vs. Union employee. Any one who works for the company is a company man. That includes your Shop Stewart.
The only people who are "Union men" are those people who work for the union, itself, for exampleThe union president, the office workers, the delegates and reps).

Shop Stewart: This person is a company employee, and the person elected or appointed by the Union and the company employees to represent the union in the day to day activities on the job site. For that position he is given super seniority, and usually is exempt from paying union dues as his only (legal) compensations for that responsibility.
He is not a "boss". He cannot countermand the directions of the supervisor, unless those activities are against company, or state, or federal safety regulations, or out side of the realm of a particular employees job description and/or pay scale.

You're paycheck: You are paid by the company to perform your job. The union does not pay you a dime for your work.

Benefits and Perks: The company pays for your employee benefits. In some cases the company pays 100% of the benefits package you get. In other cases the company pays a percentage of them, and the employee also contributes to them. In many cases these benefits and perks represent as much as 50% of your hourly wage. The union does not contribute to your company sponsored benefit package. In the vast majority of union contracts, the provider, the quality, and the depth of these perks are not included.

The binds of a Union contract. Contrary to popular belief, union contracts do not limit the companies right to do business. What they do represent is a series of agreed upon bylaws that set guide line for dealing with on the job situations, and a pre-negotiated rate of pay, and a set time table for pre-negotiated wage increases over the life of the contract.
Contracts do not dictate business practice at all. The do not involve a company's direction, management, customers, products, or type of business.

Essentially, beyond laying out a seniority list, a negotiated wage ( usually by job description), negotiated wage increases over the life of the contract, standard vacation allowances, usually by seniority, and negotiated and agreed upon progressive discipline programs, and, in some cases an employee counseling program, the contract offers little else.

Employees: Employees are selected solely by the company. The union has no input or impact on who the company hires. The employee works solely for the company, not the union.

Universal cause for immediate termination of employ: There are certain infractions for which a unionized employee can be fired, with out arbitration, the included, but are not limited to:
Stealing, Fighting, Striking another employee or supervisor, Industrial espionage, Deliberate damage (to product, equipment, or facilities of the company or that other employees), Theft of time, Unauthorized use of another employee's time card, Unauthorized use of company equipment or property, False witness (against the company, another employee or supervisor), Drinking on the job, or reporting to work intoxicated (includes the used of prescription, over the counter, and illegal drugs). In many cases it is also an infraction to have alcoholic products in your car if your car is parked on company property.

Beyond that, there are also a plethora of categories of things that can be included in company contracts that are unique to the business or industry, that are regularly added individual contracts.


As I stated above: "The fact is that both the unionized workers, and the non-unionized workers work for, and are paid by the same company, and if they want to continue getting a paycheck, they both better do everything possible to assure the company's success and longevity".

Allowing a company to get away with dangerous or illegal safety practices, as you mentioned above, does not serve that end.

 

[abodyjoe]

where do you think i'm pissed off? far from it my man...

As I stated above: "The fact is that both the unionized workers, and the non-unionized workers work for, and are paid by the same company, and if they want to continue getting a paycheck, they both better do everything possible to assure the company's success and longevity".

ummmm. did anyone say or even suggest that the employee doesn't work for the company? don't know where you would get that idea. not sure what that encyclopedia you just posed is supposed to prove or suggest....

all union and non union guys that i know seem to know who is paying them and who they work for.. gotta be pretty stupid not to. then again it may be the same guys that you talked about that couldn't budget their money for their dues that also would be able to budget their money for medical insurance or retirement either if they had to..

and hell yea i'm taking the union lawyer over some state guy. there is a reason they are working for the state and not making big money elsewhere. **** if i'm on trial for murder who do i have a better chance with? a public defender? hell no i'll be behind bars for sure.. if on trial for something like DUI who are ya taking? sure as hell not a public defender. you go get a guy that specializes in DUI cases... its the same with everything... you want to rely on a state guy, like you said its a choice you can make. a poor one but its a choice...

The biggest issue I see with unions is that both unionized employees, and non-unionized employees in the same company develop an "Us vs. them" attitude.

i see that also.. what i have seen though is that starts from the management level. i've worked places (non union and union) that everything was cool.. none of that crap went on.. everyone got along fine. other places i've seen the us against them. 95% of the time it was because of the way they/we were treated by management... they breed that attitude some places...... sure you have mr angry that is always pissed about something and will never be happy. i'm not saying that doesn't happen either. i'm sure we all know atleast one those guys...

 

[Frankie]

where do you think i'm pissed off? far from it my man...

Due to your previous exclamation of, "bullshit".

ummmm. did anyone say or even suggest that the employee doesn't work for the company? don't know where you would get that idea.

I got "that idea" from 43 years experience, in 13 states, both as a union employee, a union rep, and a company manager, a VP of operations, and a business owner. Yes, I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to unions, I'm not guessing.
The mentality that unionized workers "work for the union" is very common.
Kudos to you and those you work with for not sharing that very popular mindset. You are most certainly not in the majority, and that's very refreshing to hear (read).

...then again it may be the same guys that you talked about that couldn't budget their money for their dues...

I never mentioned why they didn't continue to pay their union dues. "Budgeting" issues are an assumption on your part. Having witnessed it first hand, though, I'd have to say that when faced with the fact that they had to personally pay for their union membership, instead of having it deducted ( relatively unseen) from their checks, it became a burden that they no longer felt was necessary, and quite possibly worth it.

...and hell yea i'm taking the union lawyer over some state guy. there is a reason they are working for the state and not making big money elsewhere. **** if i'm on trial for murder who do i have a better chance with? a public defender? hell no i'll be behind bars for sure.. if on trial for something like DUI who are ya taking? sure as hell not a public defender. you go get a guy that specializes in DUI cases... its the same with everything...

Correction, I'm not telling you to do anything, I'm merely point out that lawyers public, and private, are available with out a union in the mix. The quality of each depending solely on the effort a person is will to apply to his job.

you want to rely on a state guy like you said its a choice you can make. a poor one but its a choice...

I have a personal lawyer with whom I've done business and personal transactions since 1986. He's never once failed me. I have no need for a union lawyer, nor a public defender.

My comments, however weren't to diminish either, but merely to point out that it isn't necessary to belong to a union to secure an attorney. Nothing more. Sorry that I didn't make that more clear, earlier.

 

[inkjunkie]

Some of the replies are far too long winded for me to read...damn simpleton....but I did see the us versus them tossed about....in my limited experience with unions the only ones that had this mindset were the stewarts....and it was only the "Chief Stewart" that was vocal about it....

Carry on....

 

[abodyjoe]

Due to your previous exclamation of, "bullshit".

lol.. i call bullshit on something you post and all of the sudden i'm pissed off? you must be super sensitive if thats what you got out of that..

I never mentioned why they didn't continue to pay their union dues. "Budgeting" issues are an assumption on your part. Having witnessed it first hand, though, I'd have to say that when faced with the fact that they had to personally pay for their union membership, instead of having it deducted ( relatively unseen) from their checks, it became a burden that they no longer felt was necessary, and quite possibly worth it.

like i said make them pay for their medical bennys and retirement with a check at the end of the month., i'll bet you see the same ones not coming up with the cash as you did with their dues.. non of that matters at the time either. right up until you need them..

I have a personal lawyer with whom I've done business and personal transactions since 1986. He's never once failed me. I have no need for a union lawyer, nor a public defender.

thanks for proving my point. you are not relying on a state or public guy.. yes the state or public guy is a choice or an option but like i said and by your actions by paying your own guy its not a very good choice..

The mentality that unionized workers "work for the union" is very common.
Kudos to you and those you work with for not sharing that very popular mindset. You are most certainly not in the majority, and that's very refreshing to hear (read).

like i said. you can't fix stupid. and there is plenty of stupid in this world union and non union.. stupid doesn't discriminate..

 

[inkjunkie]

Attempting to read what is going on between Frankie/Joe reminds me of what I was told by someone who handled some of the EEO issues for the USPS in Phoenix....guess we are going to just have to agree to disagree.....I was told this when I was knee deep in 5 separate EEO complaints filed by a co-worker....and I was named in all of them why this individual was not getting treated "fairly".....

 

[bighammer]

I live in a rural area of logging companies and lumber mills. Back in the 70's the union mill workers started talking about a strike. Not due to poor or dangerous working conditions, but just for more money. Mind you, a non skilled floor sweeper was getting $12 per hour. The guys actually running equipment were paid much more. The owner of the mill, Louisiana Pacific, adamantly told the workers that they could not afford to pay them any more than they already were. If they strike, the mill would be shut down. The union workers voted a strike ( based on greed, IMO) for more money. The mill immediately shut down. This was the largest employer in our county. Some of those very same employees of the mill are still working today for less than they were paid decades ago.

 

[Frankie]

Some of the replies are far too long winded for me to read...damn simpleton....but I did see the us versus them tossed about....in my limited experience with unions the only ones that had this mindset were the stewarts....and it was only the "Chief Stewart" that was vocal about it.... Carry on....

I agree, but, that mindset is very common with senior rank and file union members, too. I've seen it first hand, both as a union member (Teamsters, ILGWU, and ILA) and as a Supv., a Division Manager, and VP of Ops.

I was always puzzled by the mind set that the company is out to screw the employees. That completely ignores the logic that the company depends on it's employees to make a profit, or to simply remain in business.

A private company consists of An owner or a group of owners who invest their money to create the company, A management staff as needed, a clerical staff as needed, and labor force as need. A privately held, brick and mortar company that manufacturers, or distributes a product can not exist without all four of those things. It's not "us against them", it's "WE".