cam duration

-
I run 10.9 comp on 91 octane with iron heads, on the street and do not have detonation issues, but i have to add race gas for the track. picking the right cam for the whole package is key, look at Howards cams for short duration and good lift.
 
looking for shortest possible duration without having major detonation problems

i have sourced both Lunati and Comp with my complete build and they are suggesting 230 / 236 int and exhaust.
i was hoping something around 216 / 220 (intake) might bleed off enough...I also would like a fairly clean,smooth idle

you guys are over thinking this...
who is running an iron headed 9.5:1 small block with no detonation problems on 91 octane?

for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression.
..what is the least amount of duration you can get away with
before you have detonation issues.

as mentioned earlier...something that has a smooth idle, doesn't load up and gets fair mileage (read short duration hi lift)
.. emphasis on lo rpm torque,don't want a big hp number,no racing, street car
.. stock 340, 210 / 220 would be fine but i don't think it's doable?

tx guys...new build,looking to get some real world input.
..i have used the XE268..great cam,lopey idle but despite what Comp says,with 3.23 and a decent tire it needs a bit of a converter..i don't want to go that route this time..i think it's 224 / 230... 218 / 220 may work

For those who seemed to have skipped over the OPs posts.
He's not looking for a big cam. He IS looking for the smallest permissible intake duration, commensurate with 9.5Scr, and freedom from detonation.
So, who is running something with an ICA of under about 62 degrees, and Scr near 9.5, and pump-gas;
and what are your secrets?
 
I must have slept through cam school because a factory magnum cam is about 198*@.050" , .439" lift and 114 LSA which is probably just about what OP is looking for and wont ping on 89.
OP you failed to mention if this is LA or magnum but magnum is 9:1 with small cam and doesnt ping, its a hydraulic roller which is ground drastically different than HFT cams, they also work a whole lot better. Also dont have to worry about having enough duration to bleed off cylinder pressure.
 
...who is running an iron headed 9.5:1 small block with no detonation problems on 91 octane?

I am (almost)...Hughes HE3844AL hudraulic flat tappet...238/244 @ 0.050"....verified 9.7:1 static CR...fast ignition curve (21 initial, 38 total)...no detonation on 94 octane, dynamic compression is 165-170 psi.

In fact, I just picked up my heads from the machine shop as I'm going to a 10.5:1 static CR...gimme a week or two and I'll report back....it'll be a bit hairy I suspect....

My cam is much bigger then what you are looking for though...so this is not a recommendation regarding cam size but rather a point of reference for what is working for me.
 
Last edited:
for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression.
..what is the least amount of duration you can get away with
before you have detonation issues.

looking for shortest possible duration without having major detonation problems

i was hoping something around 216 / 220 (intake) might bleed off enough...I also would like a fairly clean,smooth idle

For those who seemed to have skipped over the OPs posts.
He's not looking for a big cam. He IS looking for the smallest permissible intake duration, commensurate with 9.5Scr, and freedom from detonation.
So, who is running something with an ICA of under about 62 degrees, and Scr near 9.5, and pump-gas;
and what are your secrets?

This thread is a cluster ****
Yup. Nobody seems to give a damn about the OP's original point. I tried to stay on target.......for once.

Well almost everybody. Our stage II cam is [email protected] .520" lift 114 LSA 9-9.5 comp is fine on 91. Our stage I is 203@ .050 .450" lift 110 or 114 LSA no problem on 91 or even 87. Both offer a nice idle and good torque for street. There seems to be so much confusion about cams, I dont get it....
 
I must have slept through cam school because a factory magnum cam is about 198*@.050" , .439" lift and 114 LSA which is probably just about what OP is looking for and wont ping on 89.
OP you failed to mention if this is LA or magnum but magnum is 9:1 with small cam and doesnt ping, its a hydraulic roller which is ground drastically different than HFT cams, they also work a whole lot better. Also dont have to worry about having enough duration to bleed off cylinder pressure.
Now that I can see as a difference.
 
Here's mine 224/230 @.050...268/280 duration...480 lift.
An LA 318, zero decked with 1.81 KB forged pistons, .040 overbore, Indy/Rhs LA X heads with 1.92/1.62 valves, 62 cc closed chambers. .042 quench, a Comp XE268H cam, a holley 4150 650 cfm carb, Eddy air gap intake, a pertronix flame thrower II billet distributor (for now) and a timing chain tensioner and about 9.6:1 compression. Intake centerline is installed at 105.5 on the degree wheel. No detonation at 40* total @ 3800 rpm (something is wrong there with the mechanical advance...I'm still working on that one) with 18* initial 92 octane, 10% ethanol. Dyno results says it likes that timing...less and it drops hp.
At the wheels 2.94:1 rear diff...3.23:1 suregrip in a week or so... 281.32 HP @ 5790 rpm and 257.65 torque @ 5690 rpm. Oh, and I'm going to up it from a 1700 to a loose 2000 or 2200 stall converter to help with in gear and engaged A/C compressor Idle quality.
Might not be what you're looking for but it likes lots of timing, runs strong on pump gas and has Zero detonation...gas mileage isn't bad at 15 mpg hwy and about 11 with my foot in it repeatedly.
Might consider a step or 2 down in cam for better idle quality and economy. The XE's have a fast ramp on the lobe and contribute to a noisy valve train as well.
 
Last edited:
To the OP's original question:

My 351C with iron 2 BBL heads. It never knocked on 93 octane; but it would knock on 87. SCR ran just over 10:1 and I used a Crane economy/torque cam with advertised duration of 254/264 and 190/200 at .050". LSA was 114*. Installed with straight up timing. Stock Ford C4 TC and 3.08 rear gear. The chambers were open but I used a TRW forged quench-dome piston for quench effect. Chambers were polished to help reduce knock tendencies. I was not all that aggressive with ignition advance. Carb was a Holley 6619, made for emissions and economy, so it was not a rich running carb that made up for any tendency to knock; if anything, it would have been more likely to knock with that carb.

So, many of that engine's factors 'violated' the rules we speak about so often as limits. I tend to think of those numbers as 'safe' limits; i.e., easy to build to without issues. But that does not mean you can't push closer to the limits. I think the biggest anti-knock factors in that 351C build were (in no particular order):
- Quench
- Polished chambers
- No cam advance
- Not being aggressive on ignition advance. I tried pushing it once, it knocked some, so went back to just a bit more than basically factory advance.

18-19 mpg on the highway, and good torque with that stump-puller cam. Revved to 6500 rpm with good pull (best 1-2 shift point was at 55 mph) due to the good breathing intake and headers and big ports on those heads. The 1.73 stock Cleveland rocker ratios helped the high end breathing too, despite the shorter cam durations, so I have been a believer in 1.6 rockers for Mopar street use since then..... like on the Magnums.
 
I am (almost)...Hughes HE3844AL hudraulic flat tappet...238/244 @ 0.050"....verified 9.7:1 static CR...fast ignition curve (21 initial, 38 total)...no detonation on 94 octane, dynamic compression is 165-170 psi.

In fact, I just picked up my heads from the machine shop as I'm going to a 10.5:1 static CR...gimme a week or two and I'll report back....it'll be a bit hairy I suspect....

My cam is much bigger then what you are looking for though...so this is not a recommendation regarding cam size but rather a point of reference for what is working for me.

This is no help at all. Your cam, when installed at 104 will have an ICA of 67 Degrees.Your Scr is stated as 9.7. Comparatively speaking,these are not even on the same planet.
 
Here's mine 224/230 @.050...268/280 duration...480 lift.
An LA 318, zero decked with 1.81 KB forged pistons, .040 overbore, Indy/Rhs LA X heads with 1.92/1.62 valves, 62 cc closed chambers. .042 quench, a Comp XE268H cam, a holley 4150 650 cfm carb, Eddy air gap intake, a pertronix flame thrower II billet distributor (for now) and a timing chain tensioner and about 9.6:1 compression. Intake centerline is installed at 105.5 on the degree wheel. No detonation at 40* total @ 3800 rpm (something is wrong there with the mechanical advance...I'm still working on that one) with 18* initial 92 octane, 10% ethanol. Dyno results says it likes that timing...less and it drops hp.
At the wheels 2.94:1 rear diff...3.23:1 suregrip in a week or so... 281.32 HP @ 5790 rpm and 257.65 torque @ 5690 rpm. Oh, and I'm going to up it from a 1700 to a loose 2000 or 2200 stall converter to help with in gear and engaged A/C compressor Idle quality.
Might not be what you're looking for but it likes lots of timing, runs strong on pump gas and has Zero detonation...gas mileage isn't bad at 15 mpg hwy and about 11 with my foot in it repeatedly.
Might consider a step or 2 down in cam for better idle quality and economy. The XE's have a fast ramp on the lobe and contribute to a noisy valve train as well.
The pertinent info from this post is ; XE268 in at 105.5, 9.6 SCr, and .042Quench, and92 octane. That 105.5 puts the ICA at59.5. So we have every thing the OP asked for
Except what he asked for. So basically another useless post. Common guys.
 
The pertinent info from this post is ; XE268 in at 105.5, 9.6 SCr, and .042Quench, and92 octane. That 105.5 puts the ICA at59.5. So we have every thing the OP asked for
Except what he asked for. So basically another useless post. Common guys.
The OP asked
"for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression.
..what is the least amount of duration you can get away with
before you have detonation issues."

It's iron headed, 9.6 cr and I have no detonation at 91 or 92 octane...89 yes
 

This thread is a cluster ****
Yup. Nobody seems to give a damn about the OP's original point. I tried to stay on target.......for once.
Well almost everybody. Our stage II cam is [email protected] .520" lift 114 LSA 9-9.5 comp is fine on 91. Our stage I is 203@ .050 .450" lift 110 or 114 LSA no problem on 91 or even 87. Both offer a nice idle and good torque for street. There seems to be so much confusion about cams, I dont get it....

See now here is useful information.
I like that .520 lift. Ima guessing 260/262 advertised; which could put the ICA at around 61*, which is right on target.There you go OP! Grab it while it's hot. These numbers put this cam about 1.5 sizes smaller than an oem 340 cam, but with lotsa more lift. Should build lotsa low speed torque,A strong midrange, and a smooth idle with just a tiny hint of a lope.If you have some tuning skills,this cam can be tuned for great fuel-mileage, in a complementary chassis.
 
The OP asked
"for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression.
..what is the least amount of duration you can get away with
before you have detonation issues."

It's iron headed, 9.6 cr and I have no detonation at 91 or 92 octane...89 yes

And the smooth idle? He mentioned that in two posts, and alluded to it in at least a third. You mentioned the lack of smooth idle;to your credit. So perhaps totally useless was a bit harsh.
The recap is in post #27
 
Last edited:
This is no help at all. Your cam, when installed at 104 will have an ICA of 67 Degrees.Your Scr is stated as 9.7. Comparatively speaking,these are not even on the same planet.

What are you talking about???

Seriously, the OP asked a simple question: "..for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression...what is the least amount of duration you can get away with before you have detonation issues..."

So my response, as clearly stated, gave him feedback on what my experience is with an iron headed 9.7 measured static CR motor. Factory iron heads, open chamber. No recommendations of any sorts, just empirical knowledge based on my powertrain combo.

I clearly did NOT say "...you must run at least [email protected] on intake...or else..." to make this work on pump gas, right?

In fact, here is precisely what I stated: "...My cam is much bigger then what you are looking for though...so this is not a recommendation regarding cam size but rather a point of reference for what is working for me...".
 
What are you talking about???

Seriously, the OP asked a simple question: "..for an iron headed small block at about 9.5:1 compression...what is the least amount of duration you can get away with before you have detonation issues..."

So my response, as clearly stated, gave him feedback on what my experience is with an iron headed 9.7 measured static CR motor. Factory iron heads, open chamber. No recommendations of any sorts, just empirical knowledge based on my powertrain combo.

I clearly did NOT say "...you must run at least [email protected] on intake...or else..." to make this work on pump gas, right?

In fact, here is precisely what I stated: "...My cam is much bigger then what you are looking for though...so this is not a recommendation regarding cam size but rather a point of reference for what is working for me...".

Your cam has an advertised duration of 286/290 IIRC.

The OP is asking for an apple to apple comparison/references.

The OP also stated he is looking for "looking for shortest possible duration without having major detonation problems that has a smooth idle, doesn't load up and gets fair mileage (read short duration hi lift)
.. emphasis on lo rpm torque, don't want a big hp number, no racing, street car"

You are basically giving him a kumquat to use as reference for his question.

If knowledge is empirical, it's based on observation rather than theory. To do an empirical study of donut shops, you'll need to visit every one you can find.
 
If knowledge is empirical, you'll need to visit every one you can find.

Then why not look at all builds you can find to gain that empirical knowledge. Smooth idle, fair mileage can be environmental to some. If your environment involves radical race motors a smooth idle can be seen as a choppy lope compared to what one is normally subjected to...same goes for fair mileage. Respondents are giving their experiences. Let the knowledge seekers decide if the information pertains to that which they wish to discover.
 
Going back over all of the posts, I went back to my 10+ SCR 351C and drug out the cam specs. ICA is 60 ABDC as installed. That works out to a DCR of 8.3 or 8.4. I was not aggressive on ignition timing and had quench, and polished chambers, and ran on pump premium, with no issues. So an 8:1 DCR limit seems quite reasonable to me with some modest amount of tuning care for 91 fuel.

So making some assumptions on the OP's engine (360 engine assumed with 9.5 SCR), and a Lunati Voodoo cam series, the 213/220 PN 10200701 ends up at 8.0:1. And in the Lunati High Efficiency cam series, the 210/210 ends up at 7.9 DCR. These are both if installed straight up, no extra advance beyond what is ground in. Both work out to around 60 intake closing angle. This all lines up well with the numbers AJ is tossing out there.

The above are both hydraulic flat tappet cams. As Magnummopar indicates, if you want to move to roller, then you can go a bit narrower on duration and yet better lift.

And I personally wouldn't expect the guys at Lunati or Comp, or any cam maker for that matter, to help you push the duration down to being near to challenging the detonation limit; they just aren't going to go there, IMHO. The can't control what the end user does with it, and yet the cam maker can/will get blamed if you or I muck it up and whine about detonation.
 
AWright I'll tell you what worked for me.
It is totally irrelevant
but shows what can be done. My second iteration;
367cid @10.7Scr. Hughes HE2430H cam Specs are 223/230/110. adv;270/276/ installed at 106 with 538/549lift. Running a 4-spd with 2.66low and 3.55s.
Aluminum heads,running 205*F, power timing 32 to 36 on 87E10
The listed Installed centerline yields an ICA of 61*, and a DCR of 8.75, and cylinder pressure of 178psi(Wallace).Mine measured 185psi
This iteration made monster off-the-line SBM torque. Monster! I had to narrow the rear end and install 295s to get a grip on it.The 245s I originally put on it were a joke, and the 275s that followed were not much better.The midrange was very,very strong; stronger than either the 292/508 it had previously had, and stronger also than the following 230@050 cam.This 2430cam would start 275s spinning in 2nd at 45 mph, occasionally 50;they often kept on spinning to 80 mph or more. The top-end was adequate, cuz I didnt really need to go there, as 65mph was 5500rpm(2nd), and I don't usually need to go any faster.I had some nice springs on it that allowed the occasional romp into the high 6000s. This cam would idle at between 650 and 700 with plenty of vacuum for PB, with as little a 12* of initial. The idle was not dead smooth, having a very light lope.The lope was so light, I was actually disappointed;(it following the 292/508). But this beast with a bit of clutch,would idle down to 500/550 and pull itself around the parking lot like that, without any drama, and that with a 750DP/AG feeding it.To get moving I would often just blip the throttle and almost dump the clutch, and let the flywheel do what it was designed to do. It was extremely civil in traffic, and built peak vacuum very early. On one particular trip of about 1000 hiway miles, I installed a 600vac secondary carb and an A833 O/D box with a GearVendor behind it. This gave me 7 usable gears including Double O/D. 75 mph was a tic over 1800 rpm. 32mpgUS was the result. On this particular trip, traffic was booting along at quite a bit more than 75.I cannot recall the DD mileage, except compared to the 292/508 it was stupendous!

Totally irrelevant, except;
If you consider that the aluminum heads might be worth 0.8 to 1.0 in compression ratio, then this theoretically should be able to be done on 9.7 to 9.9 Scr with cast iron and tight quench. If you take out the tight-Q (worth about a half a point), then 9.2 to 9.4 should be doable; theoretically,on,the same 87E10.
So IMHO, one cam-size down(about 264/218@050) might work on one grade up gas, certainly on 91. Keep in mind you only need exactly enough octane to suppress detonation, when the the engine is heavily loaded and forced to spool slowly.And it is usually most sensitive to wrong fuel, at lower rpms. So plan the rest of the combo to match the engine. 2.76 gears and a 1600TC are not gonna like borderline-too-much Scr. A 2800TC and 3.91s will spool thru the Rs so fast it will be on the power-timing in just over an instant, and will never see the troublesome zone.
As for me, I would not sacrifice compression for a DD engine. There are just so many ways to avoid or control detonation below 3000, where most DD driving is done.And I would most definitely shoot for a tightQ. Extra machining costs at build-up will pay big dividends over the life of the engine.
This iteration was by far my favorite. I'm often sorry I moved up just the one cam size.If this cam ever wears out, I'm going back! I've been waiting since about 2005
So there you have it;just as I said,; totally useless information.
Why is that? Cuz the OP wants a smooth idle.
 
Last edited:
AWright I'll tell you what worked for me.
It is totally irrelevant
but shows what can be done. My second iteration;
367 @10.7Scr. Hughes HE2430H cam Specs are 223/230/110. adv;270/276/ installed at 106 with 538/549lift. Running a 4-spd with 2.66low and 3.55s.
Aluminum heads,running 205*F, power timing 32 to 36 on 87E10
The listed Installed centerline yields an ICA of 61*, and a DCR of 8.75, and cylinder pressure of 178psi(Wallace).Mine measured 185psi
This iteration made monster off-the-line SBM torque. Monster! I had to narrow the rear end and install 295s to get a grip on it.The 245s I originally put on it were a joke, and the 275s that followed were not much better.The midrange was very,very strong; stronger than either the 292/508 it had previously had, and stronger also than the following 230@050 cam.This 2430cam would start 275s spinning in 2nd at 45 mph, occasionally 50;they often kept on spinning to 80 mph or more. The top-end was adequate, cuz I didnt really need to go there, as 65mph was 5500rpm(2nd), and I don't usually need to go any faster.I had some nice springs on it that allowed the occasional romp into the high 6000s. This cam would idle at between 650 and 700 with plenty of vacuum for PB, with as little a 12* of initial. The idle was not dead smooth, having a very light lope.The lope was so light, I was actually disappointed;(it following the 292/508). But this beast with a bit of clutch,would idle down to 500/550 and pull itself around the parking lot like that, without any drama, and that with a 750DP/AG feeding it.To get moving I would often just blip the throttle and almost dump the clutch, and let the flywheel do what it was designed to do. It was extremely civil in traffic, and built peak vacuum very early. On one particular trip of about 1000 hiway miles, I installed a 600vac secondary carb and an A833 O/D box with a GearVendor behind it. This gave me 7 usable gears including Double O/D. 75 mph was a tic over 1800 rpm. 32mpgUS was the result. On this particular trip, traffic was booting along at quite a bit more than 75.I cannot recall the DD mileage, except compared to the 292/508 it was stupendous!

Totally irrelevant, except;
If you consider that the aluminum heads might be worth 0.8 to 1.0 in compression ratio, then this theoretically should be able to be done on 9.7 to 9.9 Scr with cast iron and tight quench. If you take out the tight-Q (worth about a half a point), then 9.2 to 9.4 should be doable; theoretically,on,the same 87E10.
So IMHO, one cam-size down(about 264/218@050) might work on one grade up gas, certainly on 91. Keep in mind you only need exactly enough octane to suppress detonation, when the the engine is heavily loaded and forced to spool slowly.And it is usually most sensitive to wrong fuel, at lower rpms. So plan the rest of the combo to match the engine. 2.76 gears and a 1600TC are not gonna like borderline-too-much Scr. A 2800TC and 3.91s will spool thru the Rs so fast it will be on the power-timing in just over an instant, and will never see the troublesome zone.
As for me, I would not sacrifice compression for a DD engine. There are just so many ways to avoid or control detonation below 3000, where most DD driving is done.And I would most definitely shoot for a tightQ. Extra machining costs at build-up will pay big dividends over the life of the engine.
This iteration was by far my favorite. I'm often sorry I moved up just the one cam size.If this cam ever wears out, I'm going back! I've been waiting since about 2005
So there you have it;just as I said,; totally useless information.
Why is that? Cuz the OP wants a smooth idle.

Is that in a 360???
 
-
Back
Top