Cam for torque question

[lomchivok]

I wonder. It is noisier with the synthetic than with GTX 20/50 but in my experience that is to be expected.
The lack of power sometimes (usually it pulls hard, sometimes it doesnt) between 5200 and 6 grand could be part of what you say as well... as far as leakdown or failure to seal at the check valve...not opening the valve as far as it could.
Other factors potentially contributing to the lazy power climb at that rpm would be the distributor or more the curve limiters.
A stable valvetrain can do nothing other than help... roller rockers are my next purchase...
Waitaminute...maybe Castrol GTX 20/50 first...

 

[lomchivok]

Got my truck today so the car is back in the garage.
I just finished taking the carb off and checking it out briefly.
The manifold to carb gasket looks okay not perfect but I cant really see any evidence of a leak. it's a pretty thick gasket prolly 1/8 to 3/16ths?
I used Indian Head gasket shellac between the manifold and gasket bottom...VERY LIGHTLY... it pulled right off with a bit of resistance, it was a good seal. not sure what's goin on between the carb body and throttle plate yet. I started with the bowls and looks good in there too. Tomorrow night I'll get to the throttle plate. I've got a Racor filtered solvent tank and a couple of gallons of Gunk carb dip at work...this is gonna be fun...
You want a leak free motor...use Indian Head...You wanna take it apart...Forget it!!

 

[yellow rose]

Interesting observation YR. And surely plausible.

While I love and use synthetic oils for several reasons, I have seen no benefit for hydraulic lifters in general from it. They always seem noisier with synthetics. Makes sense as the actual viscosity tends to be lower except at the highest temps, even for the same weight grade.

Perhaps it has something to do with the check valve closure being slower or less complete. it would be interesting to figure out.

Thanks for sharing the info.

There may be lifters out there that will do better with the thinner oils.

Slower lobes may not care. We found it by accident. I know at the time I was sure I junked a head or something with what I thought was an update.

 

[lomchivok]

So I did the setup for the PCV valve. Ended up with a 5/32 hole in the brass restrictor plug I whipped out on the lathe. The T-port sync was off. I adjusted the idle to what I thought was good and then removed the carb. The T-Port was about an 1/8th to 3/16ths...shortened it up to about .050. Put an allen set screw in the secondary throttle plate adjuster to make it easier to adjust. It wouldn't idle until I adjusted the secondary plate screw. The Idle is now 850 and drops to 750 when in gear. The timing is set to 20* initial with 38* all in at 3200.
I haven't done the distributor yet and the crane vacuum arm travel stop is still installed giving me the potential of 13* extra all in running on ported vacuum.
The adjustability of the idle mixture screws is more noticeable now but it still has a strong smell to the exhaust...although it is much less. I have an O2 bung welded in...I should get an AFR meter so I can see what's going on. Thinking about possibly installing fuel restrictors in the idle air bleed circuit... possibly to lean it out a bit more and help emulsify the fuel a bit better where the fuel enters the idle air bleed circuit. I really do need that AFR meter.
I went around the carb gaskets and intake with Carb cleaner...no leaks detected, then with propane...no leaks detected, then with starter fluid...the engine did increase in idle slightly no mater where I sprayed it. I'm thinking starter fluid fumes were getting into the main bore causing the idle increase... It's either that or something else...lol.
So basically I've got a brand new used rebuilt carb that is working better but can't take it out for a test drive...too much snow.. Next step is the FBO distributor install.

 

[yellow rose]

You are getting closer.

I agree, it's time to look at idle air bleeds and/or the idle feed restictors.


And AFR will make it easier and quicker to fix your tune up, but you can do it with out one.

 

[Lustle]

GV are tuff! with just a little maintenance, it WON'T be the weak link! If i could afford it, i would have another one!!!

Ain't that the truth. Local guy here is putting 2000 to the tires, runs 7.70's and has a GV. Hasn't busted it yet! They even rebuilt it for free after he had some transmission problems last year. They are serious about their products.

So I did the setup for the PCV valve. Ended up with a 5/32 hole in the brass restrictor plug I whipped out on the lathe. The T-port sync was off. I adjusted the idle to what I thought was good and then removed the carb. The T-Port was about an 1/8th to 3/16ths...shortened it up to about .050. Put an allen set screw in the secondary throttle plate adjuster to make it easier to adjust. It wouldn't idle until I adjusted the secondary plate screw. The Idle is now 850 and drops to 750 when in gear. The timing is set to 20* initial with 38* all in at 3200.
I haven't done the distributor yet and the crane vacuum arm travel stop is still installed giving me the potential of 13* extra all in running on ported vacuum.
The adjustability of the idle mixture screws is more noticeable now but it still has a strong smell to the exhaust...although it is much less. I have an O2 bung welded in...I should get an AFR meter so I can see what's going on. Thinking about possibly installing fuel restrictors in the idle air bleed circuit... possibly to lean it out a bit more and help emulsify the fuel a bit better where the fuel enters the idle air bleed circuit. I really do need that AFR meter.
I went around the carb gaskets and intake with Carb cleaner...no leaks detected, then with propane...no leaks detected, then with starter fluid...the engine did increase in idle slightly no mater where I sprayed it. I'm thinking starter fluid fumes were getting into the main bore causing the idle increase... It's either that or something else...lol.
So basically I've got a brand new used rebuilt carb that is working better but can't take it out for a test drive...too much snow.. Next step is the FBO distributor install.

It sound's like you are on your way. AFR does help the tune. If you could get it on a dyno or a good long track day, that works excellent as well.

 

[nm9stheham]

Very good to read up on all the improvements!

 

[lomchivok]

Well, an update I wasn't looking forward to.
Turns out the valve train noise is a wrist pin. I haven't got it out yet but with my vacuum pump hose attached to the top of the piston, I can move the piston up and down .010 on the dial gauge without imparting any movement on the rod bearing cap.
I found it by pulling spark plug wires while it was running.
So, now the debate is to fix the tick before it windows the block or just swap the heads and intake to a 360 short block and then stroke the 318 to 390ish...for a spare.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Oh, PooP!

 

[yellow rose]

Well, an update I wasn't looking forward to.
Turns out the valve train noise is a wrist pin. I haven't got it out yet but with my vacuum pump hose attached to the top of the piston, I can move the piston up and down .010 on the dial gauge without imparting any movement on the rod bearing cap.
I found it by pulling spark plug wires while it was running.
So, now the debate is to fix the tick before it windows the block or just swap the heads and intake to a 360 short block and then stroke the 318 to 390ish...for a spare.

Bummer.

 

[Cudafever]

altho its sad, i say GOOD work on the diagnostics! Some would have spent tons of money on a updated valve train, to find out it didn't help a bit with the hole in the block. Good Save!!!

 

[Cudafever]

I wasn't going to say anything but I thought about it and this is a wide spread issue so I'm going to speak what I know and let the peanut gallery do its dedicated work.


If I were using hydraulic lifters, I would never ever run an oil lighter than 50. It could be a 15w50, or a 5w50 but always a 50.

In 2003-2004 around there, there was some street car classes that mandated hydraulic roller lifters. We were doing some dyno testing on one of these things, which are a PITA anyways. We did some upgrades and updates and on the dyno we were down 15-20 HP and about 600 RPM lower.

After we spent an hour trying the blatantly obvious, we pulled the notes from the earlier tests.

The only difference was the owner just had to switch out to a 30 grade oil. We put it back to a cheap 50 and got a 30 HO gain and picked up 750 RPM. The lifters HATED thin oil and would go into some sort of hysterisis or something. I cringe when guys have to put a 20 or even a 30 grade oil in an engine with hydraulic lifters. It just causes issues.

New, before all the nattering nabobs come along and they'll me their Honda uses a 20 and hydraulic lifter, it's NOT THE SAME. The ramps on some of these cams are fairly fast, and they take a bunch of spring pressure and a thicker oil.

Lots of guys with valve train issues like the OP could possibly eliminate some of their issues with valve springs and a heavier grade oil. If you have a newer designed lobe, 100 on the seat won't cut it. If it's a HRT, 140 is the low side for spring pressure.

I missed this earlier, just my 2 cents here.
Every time i go from a 20/50 to a syn 10/30 or even a 5/20, my car et's quicker. my 340 i killed a tenth at the track going from a 20/50 to a 5/20.
Now to be fair, all my eng combos that i did this too were 6000 rpm and below engs including my present 408 Hyd roller. Maybe some of it is because i have a HV oil pump and plenty of oil pressure, even with a thin oil.

 

[Dezduster]

Yah, I do suspect the tach...or the one on my dialback light, one or the other. timing light reads 100 rpm higher than the tach.
No, it's not that loud. there are times after a long drive to or from work...54 miles each way, when it will be a bit louder...fully warmed up I suppose. Today's video was after a run for football beer.
I am running Royal Purple 10W40 synthetic. It was quieter with Castrol GTX 20/50.
It's all gonna get better anyway soon with the hughes roller rockers...for the price, they'd better not be crap...damnit!!!!

The Hughes rollers are good! Brian at IMM recommended them to me as they set up correctly. I am pleased with them they have been on for two years and zero issues.

 

[yellow rose]

I missed this earlier, just my 2 cents here.
Every time i go from a 20/50 to a syn 10/30 or even a 5/20, my car et's quicker. my 340 i killed a tenth at the track going from a 20/50 to a 5/20.
Now to be fair, all my eng combos that i did this too were 6000 rpm and below engs including my present 408 Hyd roller. Maybe some of it is because i have a HV oil pump and plenty of oil pressure, even with a thin oil.

What lobe are you using? How much lift and spring pressure?

 

[Cudafever]

What lobe are you using? How much lift and spring pressure?

Hmmm well.......340 was the MP .474/280 Hyd flat tappet cam.(340 springs)
My 408 is a Hyd roller,heads are the RHS. I know that they are Beehive spring but don't know the pressure.
Brian at IMM built the heads with 2.02s and spec the spring as well as helped me spec the cam out.
I'm not smart enough to tell you what lobe it has. But here's the spec's and maybe you can tell me.
Its a comp cam, Hyd roller lifter from hughes (5321)
Gross valve lift is .562 .550 duration, @ .006 lift duration is 294/297., @.050 is 243/247(Spec's are with intake center at 102) lobe separation is at 106.
Valve events are @.050 INT 19 BTDC 43 ABDC
EXH 53 BBDC 13 ATDC
I installed the cam at 101.

Now before you scratch your head and say what the.............
This cam was spec'd out for a 12.5 compression eng living at 6800 foot altitude that needs to stretch a "tweaked" stock 11 inch converter, that stalled at 2800 on my 340.
O and density altitude that ranged from 8800-9500 foot in a 727,4.56 gear,3860 pound car.

 

[lomchivok]

The Hughes rollers are good! Brian at IMM recommended them to me as they set up correctly. I am pleased with them they have been on for two years and zero issues.

I'll use them on my next build. Most everything on the outside will swap from the 318 to the LA 360. I think the only thing that won't work is the oil pan...correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps a 360 is what I should have done first (I bet I'm the first to say that)...I'll probably fix the wrist pin on the 318 and then sell it with the dyno sheet. It's got a forged crank with 360 rods and floating pins and forged KB 1.81 pistons.
Now I'm debating on weather to build a 360 to zero deck flat top hydraulic or a stroked 360 roller that can use my Indy LA X Heads.

 

[Cudafever]

RHS on a 360 with 0 deck should make some good compression and be way torque than the 318.......but then again a stroked 360 would make even more torque and Hp.

360 would be cheaper and still make some good HP.

The two thing that will NOT WORK on you 360 is the harmonic balancer and Your Torque Converter.

 

[lomchivok]

RHS on a 360 with 0 deck should make some good compression and be way torque than the 318.......but then again a stroked 360 would make even more torque and Hp.

360 would be cheaper and still make some good HP.

The two thing that will NOT WORK on you 360 is the harmonic balancer and Your Torque Converter.

I'm a thinkin a zero deck to take advantage of quench. I like the low rpm torque and power of a stroked motor but I would prolly over rev it...I do have a rev limiter now though with the FBO dist...
And the torque converter and balancer, it's the difference between internal and externally balanced. I think B&M Makes a weighted flex plate for the 360 that allows you to use a neutral balanced converter...but that's beside the point.
Debating on building my own or buying a short block already done. Blaines and Mabbco have some interesting pricing, just don't know about the quality.

 

[Cudafever]

not only 0 deck put square the deck. Not a one of them came out of the factory square!!!!
Unless you have a machine shop build you a crate motor,with you spec's in mind. your crate motor will be missing these things, because they cost more money........

Crate motor is fast! Order receive, install.........
It's your choice......

 

[lomchivok]

So I found a 360 motor disassembled with the block machining already done and in cosmoline. the deck is squared and milled .020 and is bored and honed for H405CP-20 speed pro Hypereutectic. Has the new Pistons, rods, bearings, moly rings with the cam bearings installed...basically everything from top to bottom ready to assemble...oh and a forged 10/10 crank he says...
$500 bucks. haven't seen it yet...its 300 miles away and will be a this weekend trip if it's still available.
I think the pistons are 1.576 compression height. Don't know how far the piston sits in the hole at that CH. I read that on an uncut deck that 1.637 will get me to about .040 and a 1.66 ch piston on a .020 milled deck should stick the piston .004 out the hole??? is that right??? I'm kinda guessing here. I'd like to be at 10 to 1 compression. I need to do some measuring when I get there for sure.
Any suggestions for pistons on a .020 milled deck???

 

[mopowers]

H405CP pistons have a compression height of 1.637". You need to do some milling to get those pistons to 10:1 SCR.

 

[lomchivok]

H405CP pistons have a compression height of 1.637". You need to do some milling to get those pistons to 10:1 SCR.

Ya, I see them at 1.576 and at 1.637 listed under the same part number...different sites. I guess i'll know for sure when I look at the box.
As to milling, do you mean milling the pistons or heads. The heads going on it will be Indy LA X with 62cc closed chambers.

 

[yellow rose]

Ya, I see them at 1.576 and at 1.637 listed under the same part number...different sites. I guess i'll know for sure when I look at the box.
As to milling, do you mean milling the pistons or heads. The heads going on it will be Indy LA X with 62cc closed chambers.

HEY....I SENT YOU A PM OR WHATEVER. CHECK IT OUT.

 

[mopowers]

Ya, I see them at 1.576 and at 1.637 listed under the same part number...different sites. I guess i'll know for sure when I look at the box.
As to milling, do you mean milling the pistons or heads. The heads going on it will be Indy LA X with 62cc closed chambers.

You may have to mill the deck of the block to get to 10:1 SCR with those pistons, even with cc heads. You won't know until you see how far down the whole the pistons are.

 

[lomchivok]

So, I went all the way down to Corvallis Oregon....366 miles...In the SNOW to get this 360, It took 14 hours... It's a good looking block. bored .020 over and decked .020. The heads are done with .202 SS valves and a mild "home" porting.
It's a 1988 360 truck motor. I have all the numbers written down but I left em in the shop at work with the motor.
I'm seriously considering a stroker 408. I'll be using my indy heads with 62cc chambers. My lack of knowledge leaves me scratching my head as to what a .020 milled deck will do to compression ratio with the various CH pistons out there.
I will be going Forged all the way on the bottom end with H beams and possibly a girdle to tie the mains together for better strength.
It would be nice to be at 10 to 1 comp for pump gas but I'm not sure how to get there with my deck and head combo. Is it really worth a roller hydraulic cam or a girdle when looking for 450/500ish hp/torque? Never have built a roller or used a girdle before.
I'm a Machinist by trade but my work is mostly done on 1938 vintage Salmon Canning equipment...industry standard still today...They just built good **** way back when.
I have built more motors than I can count on my fingers and toes but this is the first stroker and the second Mopar.
Please Opine with your thoughts and recommendations...