Cam Upgrade for my 408. Need some advice.

[Heywodja]

I am looking for a few more ponies and am considering a cam change to a solid roller, in my LA 408 Stroker that will get me into the 510-520 hp range, and to flatten out the torque curve a little too. Really leaning towards a solid roller cam.

408 stroker LA, 10:1, trickflow heads, Super Victor intake with Edelbrock Proflo4 fuel injection. Howard’s hydraulic roller cam, photo attached of the specs for the cam. Edelbrock super victor intake, TTI step headers 1 5/8 to 1.75.

Cope low gear 904 RVMB w/ lockup and a PTC 11" converter.
8.75 w 3:55 Sure grip.
It pulls 16lbs of vacuum at idle and runs on pump gas @ sea level ..
497 torque and 448 hp. This was dyno’d with an airgap and some small tube headers.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

 

[Garrett Ellison]

If you have the piston to valve clearance, this would get you there...
DODGE COMP Cams 20-741-9 COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Camshafts | Summit Racing

 

[Bewy]

I doubt the above cam will be big enough to add 70 hp.

 

[Garrett Ellison]

Being that it was dyno'd with small tube headers and an airgap and now has 1-5/8 to 1-7/8 step headers and a Super Victor, the additional 15 degrees intake and 19 degrees exhaust @.050 would be a step in the right direction. It's near to the largest cam I'd try with the 11 inch lock up converter (stall not mentioned) and 3.55 gears. Another option, depending on core availability and piston to valve clearance.
CE6K 245/255 DUR@.050, 585/600, 106LC, 2500-6800
Their tech support recommend these springs for street use with their smaller roller cams.
HERS580K 1.550 Valvespring / Moly Retainer Combo- S580K
The EdelBrock ProFlo may not play too well with the 106 LSA, but they're ground on a custom basis with an open LSA option. I would be inclined to talk to E-Brock Tech Support about how little vacuum I could reasonably get by with on the system before setting the LSA.

 

[Heywodja]

Being that it was dyno'd with small tube headers and an airgap and now has 1-5/8 to 1-7/8 step headers and a Super Victor, the additional 15 degrees intake and 19 degrees exhaust @.050 would be a step in the right direction. It's near to the largest cam I'd try with the 11 inch lock up converter (stall not mentioned) and 3.55 gears. Another option, depending on core availability and piston to valve clearance.
CE6K 245/255 DUR@.050, 585/600, 106LC, 2500-6800
Their tech support recommend these springs for street use with their smaller roller cams.
HERS580K 1.550 Valvespring / Moly Retainer Combo- S580K
The EdelBrock ProFlo may not play too well with the 106 LSA, but they're ground on a custom basis with an open LSA option. I would be inclined to talk to E-Brock Tech Support about how little vacuum I could reasonably get by with on the system before setting the LSA.

Stall on the 904 is kinda dodgy, PTC built the converter, they said stall will be 2800-3200. There is not a lot of sources for a lockup 904 in today’s market.

Weird deal on the Dyno the engine had a strong vacuum signal on every pull.

Not married to the fuel injection, I have been looking at carbs lately, the Edelbrock VRS might be something I take a hard loook at.

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Don't need as much as .600 lift, but 250's @.050 and a narrow int cl like 106 and an lsa 108 285-290 dur ,definitely

 

[Jersey Devil]

I am looking for a few more ponies and am considering a cam change to a solid roller, in my LA 408 Stroker that will get me into the 510-520 hp range, and to flatten out the torque curve a little too. Really leaning towards a solid roller cam.

408 stroker LA, 10:1, trickflow heads, Super Victor intake with Edelbrock Proflo4 fuel injection. Howard’s hydraulic roller cam, photo attached of the specs for the cam. Edelbrock super victor intake, TTI step headers 1 5/8 to 1.75.

Cope low gear 904 RVMB w/ lockup and a PTC 11" converter.
8.75 w 3:55 Sure grip.
It pulls 16lbs of vacuum at idle and runs on pump gas @ sea level ..
497 torque and 448 hp. This was dyno’d with an airgap and some small tube headers.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

View attachment 1716365860

View attachment 1716365861

I have seen LUNATI 20200712 cam 231/239 @ .050 110lsa .587 w/1.6rr make 507hp using 10.4cr, an RPM AIR-GAP and 780carb. With the single plane should make alittle more .

The next cam up I've seen used alot was the Comp COMP 20-813-9, 236/242@0.050 110lsa , also using more compression with carb. making around 530 hp@6,000rpms.

I am not sure about the EFI. I don't see ANY info about cams selection using EFI on here ( which SADLY is why I am here). I was thinking about a howards/bullet/ comp qxi custom cam 235ish 241ish on a 112Lsa with .600<.640 lift.

I might start a thread about it, but from all the threads I have looked at... I DOUBT I would get a 1st knowledge or helpful replies. I really wish there was a " Ballpark " max Overlap # for EFI and P/B.

Carburetor is NOT an option for me, and is all I see on here. Also everything seems to race oriented. I want to be close to the limit BUT for a STREET SETUP. That means 91/93 octane, Power Brakes, A/C, EFI and </= 3,000 stall, Daily driver.

I haven't seen anything like that on here yet. GOOD LUCK, keep us informed on your progress.

 

[PRH]

With how quickly the power is dropping off at the top of the dyno sheet, I suspect some valvetrain stability issues.

I feel like the 20-741-9 cam should be 500hp capable in that basic combo, and is probably as big as I’d go with the EFI and current converter.
With the proper springs, it would def peak at a higher rpm than the current cam and have usable power upwards of 64-6500rpm.

 

[Heywodja]

I have seen LUNATI 20200712 cam 231/239 @ .050 110lsa .587 w/1.6rr make 507hp using 10.4cr, an RPM AIR-GAP and 780carb. With the single plane should make alittle more .

The next cam up I've seen used alot was the Comp COMP 20-813-9, 236/242@0.050 110lsa , also using more compression with carb. making around 530 hp@6,000rpms.

I am not sure about the EFI. I don't see ANY info about cams selection using EFI on here ( which SADLY is why I am here). I was thinking about a howards/bullet/ comp qxi custom cam 235ish 241ish on a 112Lsa with .600<.640 lift.

I might start a thread about it, but from all the threads I have looked at... I DOUBT I would get a 1st knowledge or helpful replies. I really wish there was a " Ballpark " max Overlap # for EFI and P/B.

Carburetor is NOT an option for me, and is all I see on here. Also everything seems to race oriented. I want to be close to the limit BUT for a STREET SETUP. That means 91/93 octane, Power Brakes, A/C, EFI and </= 3,000 stall, Daily driver.

I haven't seen anything like that on here yet. GOOD LUCK, keep us informed on your progress.

I am also building my whip as a hot street setup, that I could occasionally make a pass or two at a real racetrack.

I have manual 4wheel disc brakes, no a/c and heater has been deleted too.

Most of the aftermarket systems are throttle body injection, I prefer individual injectors for each cylinder. I chose the proflo 4. But if it doesn’t pan out, a carb setup will have to work.

From what I have seen the EFI systems are more sensitive to vacuum signal throughout the whole rpm range. Usually the efi is just a little bit less on the HP numbers, but adds a huge benefit with low maintenance and less trouble if the car sits for a while between cruises.

 

[Jersey Devil]

I am also building my whip as a hot street setup, that I could occasionally make a pass or two at a real racetrack.

I have manual 4wheel disc brakes, no a/c and heater has been deleted too.

Most of the aftermarket systems are throttle body injection, I prefer individual injectors for each cylinder. I chose the proflo 4. But if it doesn’t pan out, a carb setup will have to work.

From what I have seen the EFI systems are more sensitive to vacuum signal throughout the whole rpm range. Usually the efi is just a little bit less on the HP numbers, but adds a huge benefit with low maintenance and less trouble if the car sits for a while between cruises.

The fact that NASCAR, IMSA, NHRA ProMods and F1 are using EFI shows it can be done.

The tuning is the key. Most people can't justify the cost and time to get a car that can drive in traffic, if they are only running it in the 1/4 mile.

 

[Cal Tonsley]

I have seen LUNATI 20200712 cam 231/239 @ .050 110lsa .587 w/1.6rr make 507hp using 10.4cr, an RPM AIR-GAP and 780carb. With the single plane should make alittle more .

The next cam up I've seen used alot was the Comp COMP 20-813-9, 236/242@0.050 110lsa , also using more compression with carb. making around 530 hp@6,000rpms.

I am not sure about the EFI. I don't see ANY info about cams selection using EFI on here ( which SADLY is why I am here). I was thinking about a howards/bullet/ comp qxi custom cam 235ish 241ish on a 112Lsa with .600<.640 lift.

I might start a thread about it, but from all the threads I have looked at... I DOUBT I would get a 1st knowledge or helpful replies. I really wish there was a " Ballpark " max Overlap # for EFI and P/B.

Carburetor is NOT an option for me, and is all I see on here. Also everything seems to race oriented. I want to be close to the limit BUT for a STREET SETUP. That means 91/93 octane, Power Brakes, A/C, EFI and </= 3,000 stall, Daily driver.

I haven't seen anything like that on here yet. GOOD LUCK, keep us informed on your progress.

If you end up starting a thread I can help with some first hand knowledge. I’m running a PF4 on my 410 SB with a Crane HR 230/238 on 112 cam with 1.6 rockers. Street driven with power brakes.

 

[BSB67]

With how quickly the power is dropping off at the top of the dyno sheet, I suspect some valvetrain stability issues.

I feel like the 20-741-9 cam should be 500hp capable in that basic combo, and is probably as big as I’d go with the EFI and current converter.
With the proper springs, it would def peak at a higher rpm than the current cam and have usable power upwards of 64-6500rpm.

My thoughts exactly. And I like that cam too. Might consider opening the LSA a little, but maybe not. Even if peak power only went up 30 hp, the car would get a bunch faster because the average power/area under the curve would be a considerably higher when you get the shift point in the right place

 

[Jersey Devil]

I am looking for a few more ponies and am considering a cam change to a solid roller, in my LA 408 Stroker that will get me into the 510-520 hp range, and to flatten out the torque curve a little too. Really leaning towards a solid roller cam.

408 stroker LA, 10:1, trickflow heads, Super Victor intake with Edelbrock Proflo4 fuel injection. Howard’s hydraulic roller cam, photo attached of the specs for the cam. Edelbrock super victor intake, TTI step headers 1 5/8 to 1.75.

Cope low gear 904 RVMB w/ lockup and a PTC 11" converter.
8.75 w 3:55 Sure grip.
It pulls 16lbs of vacuum at idle and runs on pump gas @ sea level ..
497 torque and 448 hp. This was dyno’d with an airgap and some small tube headers.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

View attachment 1716365860

View attachment 1716365861

Where you sticking with a hydraulic roller or are you open to a mechanical roller?

The cam you mentioned (227/229@0.050 112lsa .525/.520 lift. Do you have 1.5 or 1.6 rockers? If you had 1.5s, I think that could be leaving alot on the table with how well the heads flow.

I made a (hydraulic roller) excel spreadsheet with every cams I found from Compcams, Howard’s, Erson, Lunati and Hughes. From cams 199/206@0.050 < 260/264@0.050 and from 108<114lsa.

I have a SBM dyno run playlist on youtube. Gives me a good ideal of what the different combos produce and how they idle/sound. The 243/251 110 lunati voodoo cam seem to be alittle too big for what I am looking for...but makes good power in the videos I have. With 11ish compression and a supervic intake 408s made 535hp@5,900<545hp@6,200rpms. The only difference was a switch between a 850 to a 950 cfm carb.

Have an Excel spreadsheet of all the dyno runs too, LOL. The HOTROD 408 used the comp cam I mentioned, made
550.4 lb-ft@4,100/536.7hp@6,000rpms.

I also noticed that ALL the cams over 236@0.050 start recommending 4.10 gears and 3,000<3,200 stall converters.

 

[Bewy]

The performance of a hyd cam is being compared to the expected performance of a sol cam. With the sol having 0.018-.020" lash, you would need to subtract about 8* from the sol to get a rough idea how it would compare to the duration of a hyd cam. So the sol with 242 @ 050 would act like a hyd with 234 @ 050. As I said earlier, I doubt 7* more intake duration is enough to add 70hp...

 

[Jersey Devil]

You said that the dyno run was with an RPM AIR-GAP and small headers... how small were they? Even with the RPm air gap and the small 227/229 cam it should have made more hp. The tq was near expected 500'ish, but the hp was down a good amount from other 408/Trickflow heads/RPM Air-Gap builds, even ones with relatively small cams.

Every one is looking at what you made and what you want to make, but are forgetting about the OTHER changes since the Dyno run.

They see you wanting to make 70hp more...but don't realize that the new headers alone probably closed the gap by 10<15hp.

Still need to know what RR you are running, that could be the another 15hp that you are leavingon the table. With the tti, victor should have been near 465hp... 480hp with 1.6rr.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Stall on the 904 is kinda dodgy, PTC built the converter, they said stall will be 2800-3200. There is not a lot of sources for a lockup 904 in today’s market.

Weird deal on the Dyno the engine had a strong vacuum signal on every pull.

Not married to the fuel injection, I have been looking at carbs lately, the Edelbrock VRS might be something I take a hard loook at.

Hope you ain't married to that converter, either.

 

[RustyRatRod]

With the right converter, somethin like this:

Racing Cam [165160] - $625.00 : ISKY Racing Cams, Do It Right

ISKY Racing Cams Racing Cam [165160] - Racing Cam Roller 3-Bolt Valve Lift Int/Ext. 0.602 Valve Lash Hot Int/Ext. 0.028 ADV Duration Int/Ext. 300 0.050 Duration Int/Ext. 260 Lobe Center 108

iskycams.com

I be damned if I'd put ANYTHING Comp in it. I caint believe people are on here recommending them. Here's a clue. Comp is about the only solid rollers Summit has in stock. That's because everybody is buying everything else BUT Comp.

 

[Heywodja]

Hope you ain't married to that converter, either.

I am not married to the converter, but so far, I have not been able to find any real alternative due to the lockup feature... If it was a non lockup I would have some better choices.

If you or anyone else knows who can build custom lockup converter for a 904 please let me know.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I am not married to the converter, but so far, I have not been able to find any real alternative due to the lockup feature... If it was a non lockup I would have some better choices.

If you or anyone else knows who can build custom lockup converter for a 904 please let me know.

Call Precision of New Hampton. They can make you anything.

 

[Ironmike]

I think 11.5 : 1 would help. You'd still run good 93 pump gas. What is your cranking compression and do you know what your "squish" is?

 

[Jersey Devil]

I am looking for a few more ponies and am considering a cam change to a solid roller, in my LA 408 Stroker that will get me into the 510-520 hp range, and to flatten out the torque curve a little too. Really leaning towards a solid roller cam.

408 stroker LA, 10:1, trickflow heads, Super Victor intake with Edelbrock Proflo4 fuel injection. Howard’s hydraulic roller cam, photo attached of the specs for the cam. Edelbrock super victor intake, TTI step headers 1 5/8 to 1.75.

Cope low gear 904 RVMB w/ lockup and a PTC 11" converter.
8.75 w 3:55 Sure grip.
It pulls 16lbs of vacuum at idle and runs on pump gas @ sea level ..
497 torque and 448 hp. This was dyno’d with an airgap and some small tube headers.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

View attachment 1716365860

View attachment 1716365861

You said 10:1 pistons, do you know the part# or how much valve lift they can clear?

You never mentioned the Rocker ratio?

Another thing about your compression, do you know if it's 0 Deck or the head gasket thickness? Don't know if you could bump up the CR with a tighter quench.

I been looking at alot of hydraulic roller to solid roller dyno comparisons. I saw one that they were getting the same vaccum with a 9* degree larger solid as the hydraulic roller. This could mean that you could run close to a 240+/- solid roller cam and be close on vaccum. Most are on a 110, so a custom would be needed to maintain the 112 lsa.

My original thought was that you would want to stay hyd roller so you could save on the $$ cost of new solid roller lifters. If Solid rollers are what you want, Each brand's offers are basically the same. I'm just not sure, " How big is Too big for what you want and what your setup needs. I don't know how new the engine is and how much stuff are you willing to change. Here's some of my lists.
@ 0.050. Lift w/ 1.5. w /1.6 LSA
Lunati 237/243 .566 /.578 .6037 /.616 110
243/249 .578 /.585 .616 /.624. 110

Comp. 236/242 .564 /.570 .6016 /.608 110
242 / 248 .570 /.576 .608 /.6144 110
248 / 254 .576 /.582 .6144/.6208 110

Howard 245 / 245 .585 / .585 .624/.624 108
245 / 249 .585 / .585 .624/.624 106
245 / 253 .600 / .600 .640/.640 108

Bullet/ UltraDyne list lobe profiles for you to pick.

I personally am just going to pick the lobes and get 2 or 3 cams made up and test. Either Comp QXI Lobes, Bullet or Howard’s. Lobes with .380<.410 lift.

 

[Illahe]

I am looking for a few more ponies and am considering a cam change to a solid roller, in my LA 408 Stroker that will get me into the 510-520 hp range, and to flatten out the torque curve a little too. Really leaning towards a solid roller cam.

408 stroker LA, 10:1, trickflow heads, Super Victor intake with Edelbrock Proflo4 fuel injection. Howard’s hydraulic roller cam, photo attached of the specs for the cam. Edelbrock super victor intake, TTI step headers 1 5/8 to 1.75.

Cope low gear 904 RVMB w/ lockup and a PTC 11" converter.
8.75 w 3:55 Sure grip.
It pulls 16lbs of vacuum at idle and runs on pump gas @ sea level ..
497 torque and 448 hp. This was dyno’d with an airgap and some small tube headers.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

View attachment 1716365860

View attachment 1716365861

Based on the drop of your torque curve look at 500 hp 408 dyno graphs and you’ll notice a flat torque curve. suspect your 10-15* off in duration.@.050. Your air flow is not there after 4500. Racer Brown recommend an stx 20 for my 414 on a 107 lsa. Nothing against Howard's, good grinder, but you need some "dwell" with the 4” stroke to let the cylinder fill at rpm.

 

[Illahe]

Call Precision of New Hampton. They can make you anything.

Nice folks too!

 

[Illahe]

Where you sticking with a hydraulic roller or are you open to a mechanical roller?

The cam you mentioned (227/229@0.050 112lsa .525/.520 lift. Do you have 1.5 or 1.6 rockers? If you had 1.5s, I think that could be leaving alot on the table with how well the heads flow.

I made a (hydraulic roller) excel spreadsheet with every cams I found from Compcams, Howard’s, Erson, Lunati and Hughes. From cams 199/206@0.050 < 260/264@0.050 and from 108<114lsa.

I have a SBM dyno run playlist on youtube. Gives me a good ideal of what the different combos produce and how they idle/sound. The 243/251 110 lunati voodoo cam seem to be alittle too big for what I am looking for...but makes good power in the videos I have. With 11ish compression and a supervic intake 408s made 535hp@5,900<545hp@6,200rpms. The only difference was a switch between a 850 to a 950 cfm carb.

Have an Excel spreadsheet of all the dyno runs too, LOL. The HOTROD 408 used the comp cam I mentioned, made
550.4 lb-ft@4,100/536.7hp@6,000rpms.

I also noticed that ALL the cams over 236@0.050 start recommending 4.10 gears and 3,000<3,200 stall converters.

When you speak to a cam grinder Howards/Schneider ect. they will admit that the gear ratio converter recommendations in their catalogs are not based on a 4" stroke, because customers are installing a 236@.050 in a 3.31 stroke warmed over 340, or a mild 3.58 stroke 360.