Can anybody solve this hot start issue? I'm out of ideas!

[Divenut]

For anyone that searched and found this thread. I haven't been able to resolve the issue. I followed all the suggestions and have checked everything noted. Maybe you will have better success than I did. My solution is to crack the throttle slightly open and it starts. I also have idle set at 850 rpm which seems to help. I'm going to accept it as it is. Thanks to all with the help.

Craig

Ya, I have to do the same thing with my Duster. I did not perform nearly the amount of trouble shooting that you did (though I probably should :banghead, but just chalked it up to the fact that I am still running a lot of old parts. As long as she fires up, I am a happy camper brother.

And, nice ride you have there!

Pat

 

[MRL Performance]

What do your plugs look like? After a long idle time? Have you tried another carb just for the hell of it?

 

[magnumdart]

Someone already mentioned the battery. I think the first thing I would do is try hooking jumpers to the car and see if this helps. Bad batteries and high resistance in the cables will cause this sort of problem

 

[RustyRatRod]

Someone already mentioned the battery. I think the first thing I would do is try hooking jumpers to the car and see if this helps. Bad batteries and high resistance in the cables will cause this sort of problem

I went back and read over all of this and I don't get the impression it has anything to do with electrical. I might be missin sumffin.

 

[RustyRatRod]

On the problem at hand.....If I had to guess at this point........I'd say that the carb is jetted a touch rich in the front. I don't think the fuel is getting hot and boiling. You've done everything right to prevent that. If it was mine, I would try leaning it out on the primaries a couple of steps. Square bore carburetors tend to be fat on the primaries. Were this a 360, you might not be having this issue.

 

[340sFastback]

Modern fuels boil over easy so with these old cars hot start problems are common. When hot, if you shut it down, then start it back up immediately it should fire right up without having to push the gas pedal. You did not say how long you leave the car off when hot and that is a factor; the longer it sits the more the fuel boils over. You are in the south I would block the exhaust heat cross over in the intake manifold so that it runs cooler. Then the carb won't get as hot and less boil over.

 

[340sFastback]

On the problem at hand.....If I had to guess at this point........I'd say that the carb is jetted a touch rich in the front. I don't think the fuel is getting hot and boiling. You've done everything right to prevent that. If it was mine, I would try leaning it out on the primaries a couple of steps. Square bore carburetors tend to be fat on the primaries. Were this a 360, you might not be having this issue.

Good suggestion. I would pull the plugs and look at them.

 

[flyfish]

Weird....my car fires so fast you almost can't hear the starter....I wish you luck in figuring this one out, but it really is not a big deal either way...sounds like more of a nuisance.

 

[my5thmopar]

340 If shut down it will fire right back up. Let it sit 15-20 minutes and I have to crank it. The carb doesn't seem to be getting hot now that I have the 1 inch spacer. (to the touch). I have another thread with he coolant get 210-216. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=196593

Mike (MLR) So here are some plug pictures. Oily ones because some dummy (Me!) spilled oil the other day cause he didn't use a funnel. So maybe I'm running lean not rich and that's causing both issues.

The plugs are Autolite 66.

 

[Lonewolf3165]

They definitely don't look rich. I don't like the deposits on the electrodes, might just be the pics or my screen but they look to have a little greenish tint to them. If so might be coolant. If not greenish then it might be oil, but that shouldn't cause hot start problems.

 

[robert 68 cuda]

I'm thinking it your distributor look at the reluctor wheel really close if any have a tooth missing the other thing is make sure you have really good grounds simple test take booster cables and hook to the ground of the batteries and place on frame engine and see how it starts i had one once do that it was the ground weren't good enough.

 

[moparmanestock]

I have been working on this issue and still can’t fix it. I pulled the top of the carb off and looked inside. There was fuel in both bowls. There was also noticeable fuel on the passenger side of the intake floor. I am still thinking the engine is being flooded. If you want to suggest something else or ask a question. Please look through the thread since several items have already be tried. Since last post, I have done the following:

Swapped the .5 inch heat space for a 1 inch phenolic spacer.
Lowered fuel pressure to 4.5 lbs
Cleaned carb again.
Lowered float to .5 inch
Put on a Wix 33040 with vapor return
New starter small for a 97 Dakota

I’m going to Edelbrock Monday and see what they can offer. Probably nothing but, I’ll try anyway. Anybody?

Your issue seems to be flooding to me and not hot starting. The gas is just evaporating out while cooling off. I had an issue once with that carb with fuel dripping from accelerator pump nozzle while idling, turned out that the previous owner didnt install the check ball under shooter. Also check the choke setting and your float levels. May sure your float is moving freely top to bottom, and that it will shut the flow off. Make sure its not sinking either. If brass, remove it and see if there is fuel in it (shake it).

 

[sst3193]

Have ya ever gone to the gas station and remove the gas cap, while it's hissing at ya? With a full exhaust system, the pipes run directly beside the tank and will heat the fuel, pretty good. Found out that our Duster tank vent was plugged, becaused it blew fuel at me that way. Any pressure in the gas tank will screw up the carb float setting.

 

[TrailBeast]

A couple of us already figured out why this happens and it is discussed in the "Eddies and Ethanol" thread.
I'll find the link.

Here it is,
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=198778

We are trying to figure out a decent low cost solution to the problem as it is pretty comon to Eddie carbs.
We have the exact same issue with ours, and we live in similar climates, so we know that it is the heat causing it.

You have the exact carb we do also.

 

[drive48]

For anyone that searched and found this thread. I haven't been able to resolve the issue. I followed all the suggestions and have checked everything noted. Maybe you will have better success than I did. My solution is to crack the throttle slightly open and it starts. I also have idle set at 850 rpm which seems to help. I'm going to accept it as it is. Thanks to all with the help.

Craig

i fought that for years and it was embarrassing to go out to your car after 15 minutes and no start unless mashed to floor for 10 seconds
check this guy out, i put these on my dart and duster and immediate drive with 20 minute sit and fuel level in sight glass moved maybe 1/32" and carb was cool to the touch.
www.coolcarb.com
call him great guy lots of knowledge.
i used part # ht154b/t154 set up see under my car in pic

 

[paulscars]

40 year old car that takes 5-7 seconds to start when hot.

Why do you think this is a problem?

kinda what i was thinking. why knock your head against the wall for something as minor as that. my 340 with proform carb does the same thing. 1 inch spacer and all. dont sweat the small stuff. lol

 

[67Dart273]

A couple of us already figured out why this happens and it is discussed in the "Eddies and Ethanol" thread.
I'll find the link.

Here it is,
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=198778

We are trying to figure out a decent low cost solution to the problem as it is pretty comon to Eddie carbs.
We have the exact same issue with ours, and we live in similar climates, so we know that it is the heat causing it.

You have the exact carb we do also.

I think the cause is probably simpler than you think. The 4140 style Holleys have the float bowls up away (not in contact) with the manifold, and surely must get SOME airflow, as well as "not so much" conduction through the metal of the manifold/ carb

Edelbrock, on the other hand, is just like a pan on a stove burner.

What you guys discussed in your referenced thread is pretty much just what I did:

Electric pump

Do the best you can with insulating/ rerouting the fuel line

Use a carb spacer/ and insulator

Install a vapor recovery system. The vapor recovery not only keeps a small amount of fuel circulating, it also nearly immediately dumps fuel pressure in the line to zero on shutdown, and provides a path for boiling/ pressure buildup, so that fuel is not so badly forced past the needle/ seats under pressure.

I still have not .....uh.... "finalized" my fuel line routing, and am presently running the electric pump through the mechanical. On very hot days, it sometimes STILL requires a part throttle, 5-10 second crank, but this is intermittent.

I expect that when I remove the mechanical pump, and get the line fully insulated, as well as a little shield between the line/ headers, even this will improve.

 

[RedFish]

Looks like the guy at http://www.coolcarb.com/ has ignored Carter carbs.

 

[TrailBeast]

Yep been through all that.
Insulated the line, and routed it as far from the engine as possible.
Electric fuel pump straight to the carb with rubber line.
My fuel pump is under the passenger floorboard mounted to the side of the subframe connector.
System does not build pressure when the car is off as it acually drains back when off. (I know this becuase when I turn on the key I can hear the pump pressure the system back up) so I know it's not a needle/seat bleed by problem.
The vapor recovery system does not circulate the fuel that is already in the bowls and this is where the actual problem is.
Have you noticed how the car runs like crap for a bit even after it does start? Most of us have that.
It seems that it clears up after the carb gets new fuel from the line.
If you rev it a time or two the new fuel gets there quicker and it clears up quicker. (Gotta get that hot fuel out of the bowls)
Holley carbs have the benifit of the cork gasket between the body and the bowls as well as the bowls being farther away from the main body.

You said,
"I expect that when I remove the mechanical pump, and get the line fully insulated, as well as a little shield between the line/ headers, even this will improve."

I hope you are right but I kinda doubt it, since the problem seems to be caused after the fuel is already in the carb and not because it being heated in the line.

Overall it's only a quarter of the year or so that it's hot enough to do it, but it's still a pain in the *ss I'd like to solve.

I think the cause is probably simpler than you think. The 4140 style Holleys have the float bowls up away (not in contact) with the manifold, and surely must get SOME airflow, as well as "not so much" conduction through the metal of the manifold/ carb

Edelbrock, on the other hand, is just like a pan on a stove burner.

What you guys discussed in your referenced thread is pretty much just what I did:

Electric pump

Do the best you can with insulating/ rerouting the fuel line

Use a carb spacer/ and insulator

Install a vapor recovery system. The vapor recovery not only keeps a small amount of fuel circulating, it also nearly immediately dumps fuel pressure in the line to zero on shutdown, and provides a path for boiling/ pressure buildup, so that fuel is not so badly forced past the needle/ seats under pressure.

I still have not .....uh.... "finalized" my fuel line routing, and am presently running the electric pump through the mechanical. On very hot days, it sometimes STILL requires a part throttle, 5-10 second crank, but this is intermittent.

I expect that when I remove the mechanical pump, and get the line fully insulated, as well as a little shield between the line/ headers, even this will improve.

 

[67Dart273]

One thing I've been wanting to try is a water heated carb spacer, like Ferds used to use, like this:

The coolant SHOULD be cooler than the intake, unless possibly you are running an air gap. I bought a couple off ebay, one of which seems to be completely plugged!!! And "they" require a little work because of the construction underneath, IE sealing problems. So I have not yet got one "on there."

 

[TrailBeast]

I figured it would be the other way around (intake is cooler than the block) till ya shut it off anyway. (Especially with a blocked off crossover)
I didn't think that would work because of the heat soak when not circulating coolant would be about the same, seems like to me.
The problem is not when running, but after shutdown and heat soak.

Putting air through that might work better now that I think about it though.

One thing I've been wanting to try is a water heated carb spacer, like Ferds used to use, like this:

The coolant SHOULD be cooler than the intake, unless possibly you are running an air gap. I bought a couple off ebay, one of which seems to be completely plugged!!! And "they" require a little work because of the construction underneath, IE sealing problems. So I have not yet got one "on there."

 

[UOP]

That's an idea, pull cool air through it since air is such a good insulator. I wonder if an air pump could be found that is durable enough to last, but doesn't draw too many amps to drain the battery when the car is off. If you could set it to turn on after the engine is turned off and run for a certain amount of time, say 20 minutes, that could possibly work.

On the other hand, the cool plate would be simpler.

 

[JP_Allison]

Maybe the fuel line itself is heating up, despite the insulation. This happened to me some years ago while I was stationed in Oklahoma. The excessive heat and the cheap gasoline conspired to pressurize my fuel bowls. If I remember correctly a cool can and some minor rerouting of the fuel line solved the problem. The temperature is definitely as hot as it was then ....and the gas is even worse. :banghead:

 

[67Dart273]

I think trailbeast is essentially correct about one thing

No matter what you do OUTSIDE the carburetor, the fuel in the bowls is still hot, even with an isolator.

LOL Maybe we could run refrigerant through that Ferd thing.

 

[drive48]

Looks like the guy at http://www.coolcarb.com/ has ignored Carter carbs.

call the guy he hasn't updated the site recently. he has carter spacers, my buddy just got one. if he doesn't have a specific style it does not take long for the guy to get it done.