Can this be fixed?

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MJD323

MJD323

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Hey Guys,

I have a 418 that was recently put together/fired up and began mixing water and oil. I pulled it back down and on closer inspection I believe I have found the issue. My question is what are your thoughts on fixing this? Can it be sleeved?

If this can't be saved/sleeved etc, what are my options? This is a 340 block, so I can not just put this stroker kit in a 360 block can I? As I understand it the mains are different even if I had the 360 punched out to .080 over, my 340 is .040 over.

Thanks

20180311_125452.jpg
 
It looks like a sleeve??? Factory motors were not sleeved, they were normally all cast iron unless the factory sleeved a motor (rare). If it is a sleeve you could have the machine shop remove it and see if there are other problems in the original block core??

treblig

treblig
 
I do not think it is a sleeve.. But I did kind of have that same thought when I first saw it. Of course anything is possible as I have not always owned this motor. Is there a tell tale sign that I can look for to see if this cylinder is sleeved? I do not see any obvious differences between this and the other cylinders. Other than the break of course :)
 
MJD323 said:
I do not think it is a sleeve.. But I did kind of have that same thought when I first saw it. Of course anything is possible as I have not always owned this motor. Is there a tell tale sign that I can look for to see if this cylinder is sleeved? I do not see any obvious differences between this and the other cylinders. Other than the break of course :)
Click to expand...


Maybe someone else has seen such a thing but I haven't. Cast iron doesn't separate like that (in a circle). You can easily tell if the motor is sleeved from the combustion side. It should be obvious. As far as i know the factory did not "cast" sleeves into the block so it could only have been done after the fact. If it is sleeved and oil or water is passing between the sleeve and the block it should tell you where your problem lies?? It would mean that it was over-bored and they cut into a water jacket when they sleeved it???

treblig
 
Looks like it's been sleeved before to me also. Pressing in a new sleeve distorts other cylinders so looking at a bore job.
 
Just walked out and looked at the combustion side of the cylinder and you guys are correct. It is definitely a sleeve. The motor was recently in the machine shop. It was bored to .040, mains were line bored and the short block was assembled by the machine shop. If they placed the sleeve in it, they didn't tell me. I suppose it is just as likely that the sleeve was already there when they started and they assumed I already knew about it.

Now the question becomes what is the best way to see if water and oil were mixing here? I suppose that if the sleeve is correctly installed, then what I am seeing is not a crack, like I thought. I am afraid that just putting water in the block and watching for a drip would not accurately imitate the conditions of the engine running, heat/pressure etc. Should I pull the freeze plug located by that cylinder and try and inspect it from that point of view, meaning trying to see if I can see the sleeve in the water jacket itself?
 
Change that sleeve.
My last sleeve wasn't pressed that far down, something wrong there.

Aside from that, stop leak or just put an inch or so of block filler, done.
 
MJD323 said:
Just walked out and looked at the combustion side of the cylinder and you guys are correct. It is definitely a sleeve. The motor was recently in the machine shop. It was bored to .040, mains were line bored and the short block was assembled by the machine shop. If they placed the sleeve in it, they didn't tell me. I suppose it is just as likely that the sleeve was already there when they started and they assumed I already knew about it.

Now the question becomes what is the best way to see if water and oil were mixing here? I suppose that if the sleeve is correctly installed, then what I am seeing is not a crack, like I thought. I am afraid that just putting water in the block and watching for a drip would not accurately imitate the conditions of the engine running, heat/pressure etc. Should I pull the freeze plug located by that cylinder and try and inspect it from that point of view, meaning trying to see if I can see the sleeve in the water jacket itself?
Click to expand...

The best way to approach this problem is to have the machine shop remove the sleeve to see if there is a crack/void between the sleeve and the block. It only take a very, very small crack (.0001") to leak water/oil when the cylinders warm up. Of course the crack will expand under heat. There are ways to seal the sleeve to the cast iron and you can also fill the block with filler. All is not lost but make sure that there's no where else for the water and oil to mix before you have the machine shop do more work.

treblig
 
Yea, that really looks like a sleeve to me too and they put it to deep.
 
They do make spacers to install the 340 crank in a 360 but your pistons are too big for a 360 block.
 
That's a piss poor sleeve job. You NEVER set the sleeve that deep. There is no reason to do that.

It can be saved. I've sleeved cylinders that have golf ball sized holes in them and they didn't leak.

If the machine shop is VERY careful, you can set a new sleeve in that hole and not disturb the other cylinders.
 
I had one where the sleeve dropped and the head gasket blew and I took it to a welding shop and they slid it back in place and welded completely around it and never had a problem out of it again.
 
I would be glad to come by and look at it. I have a Macon address, but am in Jones County. I am also off the next two days.

Hard to tell what it is, really. If someone sleeved that block, they sure did the worst job I have ever seen and I want to know who did it. Was it Sam Odom at S&M Machine in Fort Valley? That would not surprise me.

Either way, send me a PM if you would like me to swing by.
 
teringer said:
I had one where the sleeve dropped and the head gasket blew and I took it to a welding shop and they slid it back in place and welded completely around it and never had a problem out of it again.
Click to expand...

Really? No way in hell would I ever trust that. Not meant directed at you, but that block would be in my scrap pile........where, I am afraid, the OP's block is probably good for, unless I am seeing something wrong.
 
yellow rose said:
That's a piss poor sleeve job. You NEVER set the sleeve that deep. There is no reason to do that.

It can be saved. I've sleeved cylinders that have golf ball sized holes in them and they didn't leak.

If the machine shop is VERY careful, you can set a new sleeve in that hole and not disturb the other cylinders.
Click to expand...

You think? I am not so optimistic.Look very closely at that picture. It appears where the split is, a small portion of the block has chipped off. How will you get a new sleeve to seal there? If it is like I am seeing it, I think that block is done for. But I would like to see it in person first.
 

If you can get the sleeve out and look at the cyl you will have a better idea of weather it can be fixed or not.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I think that's what it is too, and a portion of the block chipped off.
Click to expand...

That is 100% correct. The sleeve appears to have been pushed in too far and a piece of the block chipped off. This piece that chipped off is paper thin.

RustyRatRod, thanks for the offer, I am taking the block to Wheelers machine shop downtown Macon tomorrow morning to have them inspect it. I may take you up on your offer depending on the outcome. Either way, we should plan to get together. :) Also, any opinion on Wheelers? I took them the crank and they seemed very knowledgeable and did a great job polishing the crank.

As for who put the sleeve in the block I can not say for sure. The machine shop I had it at last was Reeves RPM in Warner Robins. They did the boring, line honing etc as well as assembly of the short block. I can not say whether they put the sleeve in or if it was there from a previous rebuild. They have since closed, so no hope in finding out. It is quite possible that the sleeve was already in place and they just figured I was aware of it I suppose. I do know that it is not the first rebuild on this block, and I have not always owned it, so the history in question.
 
MJD323 said:
That is 100% correct. The sleeve appears to have been pushed in too far and a piece of the block chipped off. This piece that chipped off is paper thin.

RustyRatRod, thanks for the offer, I am taking the block to Wheelers machine shop downtown Macon tomorrow morning to have them inspect it. I may take you up on your offer depending on the outcome. Either way, we should plan to get together. :) Also, any opinion on Wheelers? I took them the crank and they seemed very knowledgeable and did a great job polishing the crank.

As for who put the sleeve in the block I can not say for sure. The machine shop I had it at last was Reeves RPM in Warner Robins. They did the boring, line honing etc as well as assembly of the short block. I can not say whether they put the sleeve in or if it was there from a previous rebuild. They have since closed, so no hope in finding out. It is quite possible that the sleeve was already in place and they just figured I was aware of it I suppose. I do know that it is not the first rebuild on this block, and I have not always owned it, so the history in question.
Click to expand...


I've seen sleeves set so low they chip but there isn't any coolant down there. It's solid. Do you have a bare block to look at? You can see what I'm talking about.


Again, it's stupid to set a sleeve that low. I leave a .250 step. If it's done correctly, you can't tell it's sleeved.

There is some other issue. ASSuming a 3/32 wall sleeve was installed, I'd get the old sleeve out, look close at what the other issues are and figure out why that leaks. Like I said, I've sleeved blocks with golf ball sized holed in them and they didn't leak.

When I was sure there wasn't a crack I can't see in the picture below the sleeve, I'd a QUALITY 1/8 wall sleeve, machine for .0012-.0015 press and put in the new sleeve.


Last thought...I have seen people who think a sleeve needs .005 (or more) press fit on a sleeve and that's stupid. All that does is distort the block and sleeve way more than needs to be. On top of that, you have to beat your guts out to get the sleeve in there, and that's just as stupid.
 
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