Carter Single BBS Issues

[Vsloun]

Got the car last week and it would start and idle fine, PO drove it off the trailer into the shed. He told me it had trouble running and thought it needed a carb rebuild.

Took the carb off and into town and had one of the old school guys rebuild it for me. (I've heard of some rebuilds not going well but talking to the guy he seemed pretty confident and told me if it didn't run right to bring it back to him and he'd take care of it.)

This is how it looks right now. Ever since putting it back on it doesn't want to start unless I trickle a little bit of gas into the carb. Did I hook something up wrong? I did break the throttle return spring and had to go to O'reilys to get a new one.

Kinda kicking myself that it would start and idle and now it doesn't.. I've heard that you can't wrench on them and I did go over everything making sure it wasn't bound up.. not sure if I may have made it worse.

Any pointers would be great!

 

[vntned]

Are you getting fuel to the carb still?

 

[nm9stheham]

Starting procedure: Are you pressing the throttle pedal to the floor once before starting? This closes the choke for cold starting. Also, try pumping 2-3 more times before starting; this uses the accelerator pump to feed in some fuel...same as trickling it in manually.

The 1st picture you show: Is that with the engine cold and after you have pumped the throttle once before starting? If so, the choke butterfly is not closed far enough for a cold weather start-up, indicating that the choke adjustment is not right. When cold, push the pedal once to the floor, then get out and look down in the carb to see how closed the butterfly is. Also, put your finger on the butterfly and see how stiffly it is in place; is it loose an floppy or moderately stiffly held in place?

Once running and warmed up, if you shut it off, and then look down in the carb throat and pump the throttle by hand do you immediately see a squirt of gas into the throat when the throttle starts to move?

Does it run and drive OK after warmup? What year car please?

 

[Vsloun]

Starting procedure: Are you pressing the throttle pedal to the floor once before starting? This closes the choke for cold starting. Also, try pumping 2-3 more times before starting; this uses the accelerator pump to feed in some fuel...same as trickling it in manually.

The 1st picture you show: Is that with the engine cold and after you have pumped the throttle once before starting? If so, the choke butterfly is not closed far enough for a cold weather start-up, indicating that the choke adjustment is not right. When cold, push the pedal once to the floor, then get out and look down in the carb to see how closed the butterfly is. Also, put your finger on the butterfly and see how stiffly it is in place; is it loose an floppy or moderately stiffly held in place?

Once running and warmed up, if you shut it off, and then look down in the carb throat and pump the throttle by hand do you immediately see a squirt of gas into the throat when the throttle starts to move?

Does it run and drive OK after warmup? What year car please?

Thanks for the quick response. I didn't even realize there was a starting procedure, although neither option helped me start the car tonight.

I tried the one pump method tonight and it did not look any different before or after so it looks the same in picture 1. The butterfly seemed loose in one direction, not so much in the other.

After doing some more research it appears as though I had an adjustment screw binding on the cam nearest the body of the carb. This would not allow the choke to close anymore then in the previous pics. I'm trying to post this from my phone I'll see if it works.. The battery was down so I've got it charging now and will try again tomorrow.

As to the next question I will have to get the car started again to let you know.

It seems to run and drive ok although I only let it sit and idle for 5-10 minutes and took it up and down the road in front of my house a few times. The car is a 67 170 /6 Dodge Dart.

I do believe it's getting fuel. After I had the carb rebuilt I bought a fuel filter and it went from a white milky color to "normal" after a few seconds. If I disconnet the fuel line from the carb and turn on the ignition I would assume I'd see gas flow?

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[moe7404]

mount the fuel filter on top of the engine right next to the exhaust manifold? do you have a death wish?

 

[Vsloun]

mount the fuel filter on top of the engine right next to the exhaust manifold? do you have a death wish?

My weak response is that was where I removed the stock unit from.

After this project I will be replacing the metal line with rubber and will relocate it to a safer place.

Thanks for looking out.

FWIW this is what was adjusted I assume incorrectly? Any other things to look at or opinions would be appreciated.

 

[nm9stheham]

Was the 'looseness' in the 'closing tighter' direction?

Please check the aceelerator pump operation which is the 3rd paragraph in my prior post.

If you turn on the key to RUN but not with the engine actually running you will see no fuel flow.... unless you have added an electric fuel pump in the car. These cars have mechanical fuel pumps on the engine, and they only pump when the engine is cranking or running. The engine starts from the fuel in the carb bowl. But if you can drive it around and it acts normal, then it is getting fuel flow.

OK, so try this to see if the choke is basically working and maybe just needs adjustment:
1) Warm it up and check to see if the butterfly is open (straight up and down)
2) Shut it off and look into the throat to see if any fuel is dripping donw inside; there should be zero gas running/dripping into the carb when not running.
3) Wait 'til it is good and cold (like overnight) and then don't touch anything; check to see if the butterfly is still vertical
4) Then open the throttle by hand all the way (like you were pushing the acellerator to the floor) and watch to see if the butterfly snaps closed.

 

[nm9stheham]

FWIW this is what was adjusted I assume incorrectly? Any other things to look at or opinions would be appreciated.

If you are talking about the 2 screws, the short one is for the fast idle speed and is adjusted when the choke is on when warming up (butterfly partially closed), and the long one is for the normal idle speed once the choke is fully disengaged (butterfly completely open, or vertical).

 

[Vsloun]

Was the 'looseness' in the 'closing tighter' direction?

Please check the aceelerator pump operation which is the 3rd paragraph in my prior post.

If you turn on the key to RUN but not with the engine actually running you will see no fuel flow.... unless you have added an electric fuel pump in the car. These cars have mechanical fuel pumps on the engine, and they only pump when the engine is cranking or running. The engine starts from the fuel in the carb bowl. But if you can drive it around and it acts normal, then it is getting fuel flow.

OK, so try this to see if the choke is basically working and maybe just needs adjustment:
1) Warm it up and check to see if the butterfly is open (straight up and down)
2) Shut it off and look into the throat to see if any fuel is dripping donw inside; there should be zero gas running/dripping into the carb when not running.
3) Wait 'til it is good and cold (like overnight) and then don't touch anything; check to see if the butterfly is still vertical
4) Then open the throttle by hand all the way (like you were pushing the acellerator to the floor) and watch to see if the butterfly snaps closed.

No it was in the more open direction. For some reason the fast idle screw was not even on the step that is on the cam, which is why it was "looser" in the opposite direction. When I checked the butterfly for looseness I noticed the screw binding on the cam. I found a bbs manual that suggested putting it on the first step in the cam? Is this correct?

I will do that as soon as I have a charged battery. (Most likely tomorrow)

Please forgive my ignorance... This is my first car ever that doesn't have an ECU.. Most of my carb experience is on lawn mower and dirt bikes.

That sounds like a great gameplan to me. I appreciate the help.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It sounds like you are used to EFI cars. Maybe get another one.

 

[slantsixdan]

Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download. For optimal fuel filter location, do the Fuel line mod. You probably need to pay some attention to the choke adjustments -- that choke flap should close fully when you open and then close the throttle with the engine cold. If it does not, the engine will not start without a dribble of gas.

You'll want to get the three books described in this thread as quickly as you can. Tune-up parts and technique suggestions in this thread. Remember this engine needs periodic valve adjustment.

 

[Vsloun]

It sounds like you are used to EFI cars. Maybe get another one.

That was half the reason I got this car. I wanted to learn some things. But thanks anyways.

Carburetor operation and repair manuals and links to training movies and carb repair/modification threads are posted here for free download. For optimal fuel filter location, do the Fuel line mod. You probably need to pay some attention to the choke adjustments -- that choke flap should close fully when you open and then close the throttle with the engine cold. If it does not, the engine will not start without a dribble of gas.

You'll want to get the three books described in this thread as quickly as you can. Tune-up parts and technique suggestions in this thread. Remember this engine needs periodic valve adjustment.

Thanks Dan. That is where I saw the cam position and fast idle speed adjustment screw information.

I also saw the fuel mod line there. Thank you for the links! I'll get them coming as soon as I can.

John

 

[barbee6043]

no one was born with the "how carbs works" inbedded in their brains? for lots of us learning is fun, if people will let it be?????

like it hollered out to the players on the T V superbowl. " y'all play nice now!" LOL

 

[Vsloun]

Please check the aceelerator pump operation which is the 3rd paragraph in my prior post.

OK, so try this to see if the choke is basically working and maybe just needs adjustment:
1) Warm it up and check to see if the butterfly is open (straight up and down)
2) Shut it off and look into the throat to see if any fuel is dripping donw inside; there should be zero gas running/dripping into the carb when not running.
3) Wait 'til it is good and cold (like overnight) and then don't touch anything; check to see if the butterfly is still vertical
4) Then open the throttle by hand all the way (like you were pushing the acellerator to the floor) and watch to see if the butterfly snaps closed.

After the car is running and warmed up if I move the throttle open I see gas squirt into the carb. If I turn off the vehicle and do it again I also see a squirt of gas.

After looking at it this morning it would not snap shut after opening the throttle by hand. After looking at the rod that runs to the exhaust manifold it looked bent so I straightened it out a little bit. It seems to move freely in both directions (more so then I would expect? Maybe I broke it.)

After I moved the rod to adjust the choke to the closed position (as far as it wanted to close with a little gap) the car started right up. After 5ish minutes idling it did not move open. After reading the info Dan posted I am under the impression it is just a spring? Any ideas would be great.

 

[slantsixdan]

That choke rod is bent all to hell and back. You really should replace the choke thermostat. Old Car Parts Northwest has one on the shelf for you.

(Also: which gasket did you use between the carb and the intake? 1/8" thick, or 3/8" thick?)

 

[Vsloun]

That choke rod is bent all to hell and back. You really should replace the choke thermostat. Old Car Parts Northwest has one on the shelf for you.

(Also: which gasket did you use between the carb and the intake? 1/8" thick, or 3/8" thick?)

Sent him an email.

I used the 3/8" gasket (it matched the one I took off).

 

[RustyRatRod]

no one was born with the "how carbs works" inbedded in their brains? for lots of us learning is fun, if people will let it be?????

like it hollered out to the players on the T V superbowl. " y'all play nice now!" LOL

When people buy something new, like a TV, appliance or even a new car, they get an owner's manual and or service manual of some sort. Yet, when people buy a used or classic car, the owner's manual or service manual is either the last thing thought of or not at all.

He already admitted he didn't even know there was a start procedure for his car. There's a procedure for everything. You just have to learn it.

To the OP, I recommend you get a factory Chrysler service manual for your car. Not Chiltons, not Haynes. CHRYSLER. Then after you get it, sit down and actually read it. I am not being a smartass. I am giving you the best advice of anyone yet.

You will learn a lot right off the bat. There might even be a link to a free download of the factory service manual for your car around here somewhere. We have a lot of them posted for download, you will just have to look and see if yours is there. I prefer the printed versions myself, but they are not free.

 

[Vsloun]

He already admitted he didn't even know there was a start procedure for his car. There's a procedure for everything. You just have to learn it.

You will learn a lot right off the bat. There might even be a link to a free download of the factory service manual for your car around here somewhere. We have a lot of them posted for download, you will just have to look and see if yours is there. I prefer the printed versions myself, but they are not free.

I'm 15. I know I have a lot to learn. If you posted this response before I doubt anyone would be said anything. I found the manual online and am downloading it now. I appreciate the helpful post.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'm 15. I know I have a lot to learn. If you posted this response before I doubt anyone would be said anything. I found the manual online and am downloading it now. I appreciate the helpful post.

I understand. Sorry if I came off as harsh. Some of us are so damn old and have been doing this stuff so long, we forget sometimes there was a time we didn't know it.

So cut our old asses a break.

Keep this in mind. It's not an EFI car. It will never run like one. Expecting it to bust off and go from the turn of the key is setting the bar high. Read up on it. It's a great package you have. If you take care of it, it can last a lifetime.

 

[slantsixdan]

I used the 3/8" gasket (it matched the one I took off).

That's part of the reason for the difficulty you're having. Original on your year of car was the 1/8" gasket. It's too thin, it lets the carb heat up too much and causes hot start/hot idle problems, but it's what the choke was calibrated for. You lifted the carb up by 1/4", effectively shortening the choke pushrod so the choke doesn't close fully or strongly enough. There's usually enough room in the choke thermostat housing for the mechanism to move a little further than original, though it usually takes some adjustment, but with the rod bent randomly (not your fault, someone got at it before you had the car) there's not much hope of getting it working right. Keep the thick base gasket, life's better that way, but you'll have to adjust the new choke thermostat. If the answer from OCPNW comes back as a shrug or a no, send me a PM.

(By the way, the Holley 1920 and Carter BBS choke thermostats are fully interchangeable, year by year).

 

[nm9stheham]

After the car is running and warmed up if I move the throttle open I see gas squirt into the carb. If I turn off the vehicle and do it again I also see a squirt of gas.

After looking at it this morning it would not snap shut after opening the throttle by hand. After looking at the rod that runs to the exhaust manifold it looked bent so I straightened it out a little bit. It seems to move freely in both directions (more so then I would expect? Maybe I broke it.)

After I moved the rod to adjust the choke to the closed position (as far as it wanted to close with a little gap) the car started right up. After 5ish minutes idling it did not move open. After reading the info Dan posted I am under the impression it is just a spring? Any ideas would be great.

OK, good, you are on the right track now. The checks for the 'squirts' was to be sure the accelerator pump was working OK. And the good startup after the choke closed is where you needed to head to ID that the issue was definitely the choke operation. Sounds like a bad thermostatic spring so get another with the info Dan provided; (I have had the best luck with OCPNW by just a direct phone call, BTW. Sometimes 2 phone calls....)

I would encourage you to get a manual like RRR suggests; so much of this is covered in the FSM. And even it is not exactly covered, there is a ton of info to see/learn there. You'll be a /6 expert in no time with your young, rapidly absorbing brain!

 

[RustyRatRod]

And just to let you know, slantsixdan up there ^^^^^ is a SUPER good guy. Top notch knowledge and he probably has any parts you may end up needing. He will treat you right.

 

[KosmicKuda]

And just to let you know, slantsixdan up there ^^^^^ is a SUPER good guy. Top notch knowledge and he probably has any parts you may end up needing. He will treat you right.

The OP is only 15! Now that it's out there, it's good he's getting some help.

Meanwhile, check out how Slant6Dan got started. Seems he began at a very young age too.
http://u225.torque.net/cars/62Lancer/62Lancer.html

 

[BillGrissom]

A good carb to learn with. Single barrels are simple, and the BBS is even simpler inside than the Holley 1920. As mentioned, you need the choke fully-closed when starting. There is an adjustment on the thermal spring (rich-lean). The second it fires, and you get intake manifold vacuum, the "choke pull-off" (round dashpot at top) should pop it open slightly so it doesn't die rich. Those often fail. Remove the rubber tube, push in the stem, block the vacuum port w/ your finger and see if the stem stays in. If not, the rubber diaphragm is torn. Don't ever spray carb cleaner around it.

 

[gunbunny]

And since you're 15, PM me your address and I'll send you a NOS fuel filter. The proper one in a "can" not that plastic thing you're using. Since I bought a lifetime supply of them at Nat's last year, giving you won't be a problem!
I don't mind helping out the young guns. Just remember, pay it forward my man.