Caught a lifter not rotating before cam failure

[a70duster]

Hello all, so I have a freshly rebuilt 383 that I've been assembling over the last couple of months. Last Wednesday I fired her up to break in the cam. The engine started right away. With all these issues of flat tappet lifters failing, I proactively made a vertical paint pen mark on all the pushrods.

Anyway the engine is running good, oil pressure at 70 and the engine running at 2500ish RPMs. A friend was helping out observing the rotating pushrods. After 10 seconds we noticed that the pushrod for #7 exhaust was NOT turning. I shut down the engine and dug into the issue.

I pulled out both lifters for cylinder #7, intake on the left and exhaust on the right. One can immediately see the wear pattern on the right lifter. It is straight down the middle.

I cleaned up both lifters, marked the bottoms with a Sharpie, reinstalled and cranked the engine over roughly 5 times. The wear pattern is right down the middle of the lifter. That ain't gonna rotate the lifter.

So both the pushrod and lifter rotated smoothly in their location. Next I'll need to measure the crown of the lifter. It's unfortunate one has to go to such lengths to break an engine in. At least there's no damage.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Hello all, so I have a freshly rebuilt 383 that I've been assembling over the last couple of months. Last Wednesday I fired her up to break in the cam. The engine started right away. With all these issues of flat tappet lifters failing, I proactively made a vertical paint pen mark on all the pushrods.

Anyway the engine is running good, oil pressure at 70 and the engine running at 2500ish RPMs. A friend was helping out observing the rotating pushrods. After 10 seconds we noticed that the pushrod for #7 exhaust was NOT turning. I shut down the engine and dug into the issue.

View attachment 1716490902

I pulled out both lifters for cylinder #7, intake on the left and exhaust on the right. One can immediately see the wear pattern on the right lifter. It is straight down the middle.
View attachment 1716490904

I cleaned up both lifters, marked the bottoms with a Sharpie, reinstalled and cranked the engine over roughly 5 times. The wear pattern is right down the middle of the lifter. That ain't gonna rotate the lifter.
View attachment 1716490905

So both the pushrod and lifter rotated smoothly in their location. Next I'll need to measure the crown of the lifter. It's unfortunate one has to go to such lengths to break an engine in. At least there's no damage.

What does the lobe look like?

Just because the lifter is rotating doesnt mean the pushrod rotates too.

By the look of the lifters you’ve got an issue.

 

[sr71mopar]

Thats the shitiest made lifter I've ever seen.

 

[Illahe]

Hello all, so I have a freshly rebuilt 383 that I've been assembling over the last couple of months. Last Wednesday I fired her up to break in the cam. The engine started right away. With all these issues of flat tappet lifters failing, I proactively made a vertical paint pen mark on all the pushrods.

Anyway the engine is running good, oil pressure at 70 and the engine running at 2500ish RPMs. A friend was helping out observing the rotating pushrods. After 10 seconds we noticed that the pushrod for #7 exhaust was NOT turning. I shut down the engine and dug into the issue.

View attachment 1716490902

I pulled out both lifters for cylinder #7, intake on the left and exhaust on the right. One can immediately see the wear pattern on the right lifter. It is straight down the middle.
View attachment 1716490904

I cleaned up both lifters, marked the bottoms with a Sharpie, reinstalled and cranked the engine over roughly 5 times. The wear pattern is right down the middle of the lifter. That ain't gonna rotate the lifter.
View attachment 1716490905

So both the pushrod and lifter rotated smoothly in their location. Next I'll need to measure the crown of the lifter. It's unfortunate one has to go to such lengths to break an engine in. At least there's no damage.

Who ground the camshaft? Lack of lobe taper has been as issue with @#%* cams.

 

[a70duster]

So the cam is from Mopar. A 292 0.509 hydraulic, new in the box made 30 years ago. Here is a pic without any Sharpie marks.

 

[a70duster]

What does the lobe look like?

Just because the lifter is rotating doesnt mean the pushrod rotates too.

By the look of the lifters you’ve got an issue.

Well 15 other lifters were rotating the push rods. A rotating lifter is going to rorate the pushrod.

 

[jos51700]

Well 15 other lifters were rotating the push rods. A rotating lifter is going to rorate the pushrod.

Not necessarily, but finding that is a holy crap moment! I'm REALLY curious to see where this goes.

Good job on the root cause find!!!!!

 

[grjammer]

I went through this recently on my 440 with 2 lifters looking just like the one on the right. I dressed the lifter bores and swapped the lifters with known rotating lifters and all lifters would then rotate when turning over by hand. 1500 miles and no problems yet. I did use a dial indicator and a flat anvil to measure lifter crown and lobe tapers and all were good. If in doubt, send the lifters out to be machined. Apply new break in lube to all lifters. I use the Driven gel type.

 

[a70duster]

Nothing outstanding about the cam lobes. They all look the same. Again this engine ran for about 10 seconds at 2500 RPM. This firgures to just over 200 up/downs with the lobes.

I'll measure the crown of the two lifters next.

 

[CFD244]

Nice catch

 

[a70duster]

Not necessarily, but finding that is a holy crap moment! I'm REALLY curious to see where this goes.

Good job on the root cause find!!!!!

So this is an easy check and if a pushrod doesn't rotate in the first 10 seconds then one can stop the engine and investigate.

If I did a 20 minutes break-in the cam lobe and lifter would have been trash.

I do this to ANY pushrod engine.

 

[PRH]

“Of the cams I have measured”……….
Typical “performance brand” cams will have .0015-.0020 lobe taper.
Oem replacement type cams from engine parts suppliers(sealed power, Melling, etc) are usually around .0010, but I have measured some at .0005”.

The MP cams I’ve measured have been closer to the OE type cams in terms of taper.

I’d try the intake lifter on the exhaust lobe and see if you get rotation that way.
Just as a means to help isolate whether the root cause for the problem is the lifter or not.
If it’s not the lifter, it’s either the lobe or the lifter bore.

 

[gzig5]

Since it isn't broken in yet, I would try swapping the intake and exhaust lifter on that hole to see if the problem follows the lifter, or if it stays with the lobe. I assume that the lifter bore is clean and not tight or burred?

I think you should be able to turn it over by hand and see the lifters rotate?

 

[a70duster]

I was going to try the lifter swap but ran out of time last night. It will have to wait till next year - going on a vacation with the family.

 

[mopowers]

So this is an easy check and if a pushrod doesn't rotate in the first 10 seconds then one can stop the engine and investigate.

If I did a 20 minutes break-in the cam lobe and lifter would have been trash.

I do this to ANY pushrod engine.

Even those with roller lifters?

 

[Icetech]

I think it might have been rick seaman that showed in a video that he would mark the lifters and lifter bore with the intake off, turn the motor by hand and make sure all the lifters turn before even buttoning it up.. quick easy check..

 

[408 swinger]

Should be the very first thing checked before ANY assembly is started. Make sure lifter bores are thoroughly cleaned. Check cam and lifters for taper/crown. Install cam and lifters with cam sprocket lightly bolted. Lifters coated with light oil(WD40). They should slide down the bore very easily under their own weight.Turn camshaft with a speed handle. Observe lifters in their bores. Watch for the rotation. If one or some don't rotate, swap out lifters in different positions. Do it until all rotate. If one/some still don't, the lifters bore needs to be adressed. Being this is a known "quality" cam, the bores need cleaning or broach.

 

[a70duster]

Even those with roller lifters?

Got me, flat tappet I meant.

 

[a70duster]

Should be the very first thing checked before ANY assembly is started. Make sure lifter bores are thoroughly cleaned. Check cam and lifters for taper/crown. Install cam and lifters with cam sprocket lightladdressed. Lifters coated with light oil(WD40). They should slide down the bore very easily under their own weight.Turn camshaft with a speed handle. Observe lifters in their bores. Watch for the rotation. If one or some don't rotate, swap out lifters in different positions. Do it until all rotate. If one/some still don't, the lifters bore needs to be adressed. Being this is a known "quality" cam, the bores need cleaning or broach.

Years ago I'd call you over-paranoid but this has to be done.

It is beyound the abililty of the average weekend warrior to measure lobe taper and crown of a lifter. The WD40 and rotate the cam by hand is easy enough.

A couple of years ago I caught another bad lifter at start-up but it was too messy. I ran a 383 without the valley pan. I don't think I'd do it again that way.

 

[CFD244]

It is beyound the abililty of the average weekend warrior to measure lobe taper and crown of a lifter

When I did mine, I used a machinist square and just made sure that there was "some" crown. Then, of course, confirmed rotation with a speed handle on the cam bolt method as mentioned earlier.

 

[4mulas]

When you assembled the engine to begin with did you insert the lifters in the bores (no gooey assembly lube, or excessive oil), Maybe a little wd40 or something if you feel inclined to use lube at all, and rotate the cam by hand to see if they turned the lifters before final assembly?

Some times you have to switch them around to ensure they all rotate. Then on final assembly lube them all up with driven or cam lube etc and giver!

 

[a70duster]

When you assembled the engine to begin with did you insert the lifters in the bores (no gooey assembly lube, or excessive oil), Maybe a little wd40 or something if you feel inclined to use lube at all, and rotate the cam by hand to see if they turned the lifters before final assembly?

Some times you have to switch them around to ensure they all rotate. Then on final assembly lube them all up with driven or cam lube etc and giver!

No, I've done a dozen engine rebuilds over the last 40 years and never had a issue with cam/lifters. Now over the last 3 years, I've had an issue with 3 different engines.

I'd lube up the cam & lifters, drop in the lifters, degree the cam, then set lash. I never had an issue until 3 years ago.

 

[4mulas]

No, I've done a dozen engine rebuilds over the last 40 years and never had a issue with cam/lifters. Now over the last 3 years, I've had an issue with 3 different engines.

I'd lube up the cam & lifters, drop in the lifters, degree the cam, then set lash. I never had an issue until 3 years ago.

Well, I know lots of people who do the check before assembly and I will moving forward all the time now as well. It may have prevented this problem for you. In fact the last time I just lubed them and dropped them in I had 3 lifter failures too. It was a summit cam and lifters, maybe that was part of the problem who knows, but I think if I took the time to ensure they spun in the bore final assembly it probably would have been okay.

Good luck on the fix!

 

[Illahe]

So the cam is from Mopar. A 292 0.509 hydraulic, new in the box made 30 years ago. Here is a pic without any Sharpie marks.

View attachment 1716490923Is the lifter "free" in the lifter bore compared the the lifter bore next to it?

No, I've done a dozen engine rebuilds over the last 40 years and never had a issue with cam/lifters. Now over the last 3 years, I've had an issue with 3 different engines.

I'd lube up the cam & lifters, drop in the lifters, degree the cam, then set lash. I never had an issue until 3 years ago.

I speculate 80% of the lifters on the market are garbage. The last two hydraulic cams were Howard’s lifters on a purple shaft and Melling lifters on a Delta regrind. The lifters I purchased from Delta (Melling) appear to have been refaced, even though the body appeared to be new.

 

[92b]

I speculate 80% of the lifters on the market are garbage. The last two hydraulic cams were Howard’s lifters on a purple shaft and Melling lifters on a delta regrind.The lifters I purchased from Delta (melling) appear to have been refaced, even though the body appeared to be new.

How could you tell they had been refaced?