Centrifugal advance

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remytherat

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Seen UTG on multiple occasions running 20+ initial and removing the large spring on the advance weights to get all the advance in below 2500, even in street cars. Is this a really good idea for a daily driver? Why do almost all manufacturers run just a few degrees initial and bring in the advance by 3500 or so?
 
And they have to account for every circumstance and or variable and tune for that. Like when your wife’s brothers girlfriend puts 87 octane in it.
 
Back before electronic ignitions were the norm, a faster advance was considered a slight advantage in the 1/4 mile. A quarter mile was and is , run with the engine relativly cold. Often vac advance was locked out or removed (one more unneccessary variable for drag racing). Drag racing at that time was mostly class racing - Stock Eliminator.

I worked with a mechanical tech who played in that game. The secondary spring is needed for electronic ignition. He learned the hard way and passed it along to those of us who would listen.

Actually its not that big of a secret, but the magazine writers have never caught on. Read post #4

Here's a couple other guys who have run Stock Eliminator commenting on the subject. GTX John and 92b. What used to be done with dual points no longer applies with electronics even for drag racing.

Some observations here on Slew rate

The other thing the long looped secondary spring does is allow the vacuum advance to come into play at part throttle.
If the secondary spring doesn't slow the advance, then there is too much timing at part throttle with vacuum advance. Or you have to compromise the vacuum advance.
You're driving for a couple hours at 50 - 55 mph and a adding a little throttle for a slight grade causes a gurgling (ping). I got to learn this the hard way. But feel free to try it out yourself. Really no harm. Just annoying and less efficient.
 
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I normally use one light and one medium sprAng. Gets it just about spot on. All in by less than 2500 IMO is too much for street car. Unless you're running either 8:1 compression or a race gas motor, I consider 2500 the absolute lowest for max timing. Like I said, just one person's opinion. It's worked well for "ME".
 
The answer is of course, "it depends on your combination." Lets review the fundamentals. Timing advance is to account for the time it takes the fuel-air charge to burn and create maximum cylinder pressure. We want that to occur between TDC and about 15-20 degrees after TDC where the rod has maximum leverage on the crank. The strength of the mixture, compression, and RPM affect the amount of advance needed for this to occur. Richer mixtures burn faster, so more advance is needed for lean mixtures like idle and cruise. The amount of advance also rises with RPM up to a point, but that diminishes as RPM rises, typically staying constant in the 30-36 degree range once the engine is within the cams efficiency range.

On a street engine, we need to keep a couple other things in mind. It has to start easy, idle smooth and get reasonable fuel economy. Also, emissions are a thing. To start the engine, we want the spark to occur close to TDC. For idle, we want it more advanced, but not necessarily the optimum advance. For power, obviously we want the spark to put our peak pressure to occur 15-20 ATDC, and this is generally in the constant range. Going down the road, we want a nice lean cruise, so we need more advance, but by RPM were in the constant advance zone. So we want to advance even more but based on engine load instead of RPM. Hence the vacuum advance which is load dependent.

So what does all this theoretical BS have to do with UTG? I think he's trying to make a distributor with a totally wrong advance curve a little less wrong without spending any money or actually doing it right. Why would a distributor have a totally wrong advance curve? Back to the engine combination. For a 7.8 compression 2 Bbl 318 in a family truckster, it's not so wrong. But there we're concerned with easy starting, smooth idle, and emissions. In this case, we don't want optimum advance at idle , strange as it might seem. Why? Because carburetors. So why not advance it to the optimum point? Two problems. If your cam has much overlap (duration and/or close LCA) this will be in the 20 degrees BTDC range. Problem 1, once you get past 10 or so, the engine gets hard to start. Problem 2, carbs are airflow dependent. So the idea is to retard the timing at idle. By doing this the efficency is reduced and RPM is lower. To compensate, we open the throttle blades more. The carb likes this. Opening the throttle blades means more air moving through the carb, and it's therefore able to more accurately meter fuel, especially lean mixtures. So for emissions, which means lean mixtures, we want less advance and more throttle blade opening. Again, for a stocker that rarely goes past 3000 RPM this retarded lazy timing results in a smooth easy starting engine that burns pretty clean.

With a performance engine with higher compression and a higher operating RPM, we really don't care so much about idle or low RPM smoothness (we don't race at 1500 RPM). In this case we want a quick advance curve but need less total advance. UTG is taking the quick and dirty approach by chucking the stiff spring. So this gets the advance in quicker which is a good thing. And, you can obviously find the best point for full advance by testing with a stopwatch on a back road. But, given the fact that low performance distributors have a large amount of centrifugal advance built in, the optimum timing for power might actually be way too retarded for idle. Open the throttle more? Yes, that will help. But now starting and idle aren't the problem. Turning the engine off is. Wide primary throttle openings at idle will cause run-on issues. The crutch here is to connect the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum and not ported. So doing this will add about 15 degrees once the engine starts. I suspect this is what UTG is doing when he says 20 BTDC at idle. That's most likely with full vacuum advance at idle. 5 degrees static makes an easy start, 20 degrees will smooth out a high overlap cam, and getting up to 34 or so total makes power. What's not to like? Heck, we've all done it, and it usually works OK (unless it doesn't). And why wouldn't it? Try this with a factory low-stall torque converter and the problem becomes apparent. With the vacuum advance active at idle we can close the throttle blade opening back down quite a bit, meaning the engine will shut off when we turn the key, which is a good thing. But then when we put it in gear, the tight converter will drop the RPM, which will reduce the vacuum, which will reduce the RPM more, the carb will have a hard time metering fuel, and the engine will want to shut off when we don't want it to. Running a really light advance spring, which allows for some mechanical advance in the idle RPM range makes this worse.

Long story short (too late on that) UTG is describing what we broke kids did in the 80's.
 
“Broke kids” yup!
It is also in the Chrysler engine book.
So much of UTG is found in the old Engine or Chasis book.
 
I have a 440 with initial timing is 18⁰ with full in 36⁰ coming in at 2200. Vacuum advance was hooked up to manifold vacuum as there are no ported vacuum ports on my tunnel ram and dual Holley 660s. We (Mattax and RatBastard) found that initial timing, manifold vacuum advance and quick ramp was too much. So, I ended up removing the vacuum advance entirely and using the port to add air to lean the mixture. Car works amazing.
 
Welp Uncel Tonys cars dont run good at all so theres that, before you say "nay" just watch his runs , Bottle rocket= slow slughammer= slow Plan z = slow...why woul dyou listen to or take advice from someone who talks the talk (badly) but cant walk the walk...?
 
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