Considering Fuel System Upgrades/Changes

[streetmachine79]

I'm going to break this thread in different parts and questions. I'm in the process of reviving/restoring a 1979 Lil' Red Express. It's a 408 Magnum Based Stroker. It has 3" Full Exhaust with B-Body TTI Headers, Hughes Custom Grind Hydraulic Roller Cam 228/232 .550/.565 108 lsa with 4 degrees of advance ground in. My compression ratio is 10.5.1, MSD Ignition, and it also has Hughes CNC Ported Edelbrock Aluminum Heads with Crower 1.7 Rocker Arms. My current fuel setup is a Holley 770cfm Street Avenger that has been dyno tuned witha Edelbrock Air Gap 4bbl 7577 intake. The truck made 378 rwhp with 3.55 gears and I bought the truck like this from the prior owner. I have some paperwork but, not everything.

With that being said my fuel system I believe either has 6AN or 8AN I think telfon/rubber hose with a Holley Red Pump. There is a 15 or 20 gallon fuel cell in the bed of the truck. My first question with all of that is I'm considering replacing the fuel line due to age and such (12 years old I belive). In this case should I go with PTFE or should should I go back to steel line(hard line) for most of the system?

The second question is I have thought about EFI and I'm just wondering if any of the current systems would play nice with my setup? The biggest concern would be the camshaft configuration not playing nice with say a Sniper 2 EFI setup. The other part is I'm wondering if it would play nice with factory style electrical system? I still have the glass style fuses. I have already bypassed the amp gauge (converted to voltmeter). Just wanted to hear different thoughts on this. I'm thinking of just sticking with the carburetor or a carburetor. Thank you in advance.

Attached is pictures of how my truck is setup. BTW, the one picture shows a stock oil pan but, the prior owner installed a Milodon 7 quart pan with a Melling HV72 pump.

 

[Cal Tonsley]

Hard feed & return line would be my recommendation. That cam probably makes around 10-12”HG vacuum so it should be OK with a Sniper 2. A good, up to date, properly grounded electrical system is critical with any injection system as is the right fuel delivery, regulator and return. Having said all this there’s probably not a lot to gain in going EFI if your happy with your current combination.

 

[streetmachine79]

Thank you. I was also thinking if I don't do the EFI route if I'm wondering if an Edelbrock would be more street friendly than my Holley Street Avenger. I'm guessing not but, figure it wouldn't hurt to ask. Thank you again.

 

[Duster360LA]

Cool truck! I am just finishing up wiring my Sniper 2 system on my 360, but haven't run my engine yet. If you are considering the Sniper 2, a couple of considerations: 1) If you get Holey's in-tank electric pump, it has a built in regulator and you dont need a return fuel line; and 2) I would recommend getting their Power Distribution Module (PDM), which should make it easier on your fuses and wiring harness. Will this be a cruiser, street & strip or something else?

 

[harrisonm]

I love the truck, and it sounds like it will really scoot. I will say that I am not a fan of the fuel cell just being there in the bed. I think it detracts from the look of the truck. Have you considered putting a small to medium size tool box there and putting the fuel cell in that? I may be the only one who thinks that, but I think it would look pretty good.

 

[streetmachine79]

I love the truck, and it sounds like it will really scoot. I will say that I am not a fan of the fuel cell just being there in the bed. I think it detracts from the look of the truck. Have you considered putting a small to medium size tool box there and putting the fuel cell in that? I may be the only one who thinks that, but I think it would look pretty good.

What I'm thinking of doing at the moment. I'm not a fan of the fuel cell in the back either but, the other part is when I sold this truck to him back in 2009 it had a snap tonneau cover on it. When I bought it back he said he didn't know where it was along with a few other parts I gave with the truck. I got some of the stuff back but, just not all of it. What I have considered is getting a new bed cover but, the problem is it was would leave the snaps exposed though.

Now Holley does have a tank for this but, it is smaller than the original plastic which I have. The only concern I have with the Holley tank is that I believe it won't fit with the current exhaust setup. I know the factory tank won't fit with the current setup for sure as it longer. Changing the exhaust would be hard as the gentleman who does the factory style exhaust for these trucks has been having issues and a moderate backlog of work and there isn't a shop here that I would trust.

The plausible thing here I can think of is the tonneau cover anyways. For me these days it's just a cruiser or leisure driver. It's still a work in process and I'm wanting to a moderate restoration on it. I have thought about going back to stock or near stock as I have the engine that came in this truck originally. The heads are junk but, I do it have.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I’d be shocked if your cam makes 12” (like said above) ground on a 108. But it makes no difference really, a good tuner can make a sniper work. I am in the “leave a carb on it” camp but I’d suggest a different carb, I am beginning to really dislike the “avenger” series carbs from Holley. That combo really needs a double pumper and there’s no chance I’d put an avs or afb on it. A Holley can be tuned to run like a Swiss watch if you study how to do it. My vote is also to ditch the bed mounted fuel cell and put a tank underneath then run hard line (I like nicop not steel) up to the engine. Nice truck for sure. Keep us updated on what you decide.

 

[matthon]

I have efi, and the PTFE is great stuff, and the Fragola fittings are even better.

Holley over Edelbrock everyday.

 

[matthon]

I still have the glass style fuses. I have already bypassed the amp gauge

I took the Painless 7 circuit harness and integrated it into my stock harness using the original style connectors and plastic pieces.
No more glass fuses, inexpensive, 7 circuit box fits exactly where old box was, and everything looks original.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I took the Painless 7 circuit harness and integrated it into my stock harness using the original style connectors and plastic pieces.
No more glass fuses, inexpensive, 7 circuit box fits exactly where old box was, and everything looks original.

I’d really like to see pics of this please.

 

[matthon]

These are my notes. I may have changed a thing or two since. Lots of notes, but it was very easy once I mapped it out. I also added efi and a Denso alternator at the time.

Original fuse box has 5 fuses:
1) Dash lights
2) To light switch for interior lights and to hazard flasher/stop light switch
3) Lighter
4) Heater
5) Radio

Bought Painless 70207 fuse block, 7 circuits (3 Constant, 4 Ignition), 20amp fuses, circuit breaker included.

Removed old fuse box, mounted Painless in same spot, fits perfect.

Painless Fuse Box
3 Constant
1) Wire directly to light switch (B1, replaces BLK-TR). Light Switch was not originally fused.
2) Wire directly to ignition switch (replaces RED wire). Ignition switch was not originally fused.
3) Wire to pink/pink splice where fuse box was (to light switch for interior lights and to hazard flasher/stop light switch).

4 Ignition
1) Wire directly to heater switch (BLACK-TR).
2) Wire directly to new alternator.
3) Wire directly to aftermarket radio.
4) Wire directly to USB charging ports.

That leaves 3 wires where the old fuse box was:
1) BLACK – into the fuse box – comes from the ignition, goes to a welded splice, then out to the Directional Flasher, Gauges, and fuse box. It is an Ignition power source, so I connected it to the Painless Pink wire.
2) TAN – into the fuse box, it is the feed from the Light Switch to adjust the Instrument Lights.
3) ORANGE – out from fuse box, it is the power to the Instrument Lights
4) TAN and ORANGE – inline fuse holder with a 10amp, spliced them together, zip tied to the side of the Painless.

Used multiple distribution blocks, whichever was cheaper: SUM-900390 or PRF-80116

Positive Junction Block mounted under dash, made a small bracket.
1) Connected the ‘Start’ wire (Brown).
2) Connected the ‘Run’ wire (Blue Tracer).
3) New wire to positive on coil.
4) New wire to a voltmeter.
5) Tach power.

Ammeter/Alternator Charge Wire
1) Ammeter and wiring with welded splice eliminated entirely by just bypassing it, left in place within the dash harness.
2) New Denso 60 amp Alternator.
3) New Alternator charge wire to Starter Relay – 8-gauge wire with a 6 inch 12-gauge fusible link.
4) New Sense wire with inline fuseable link from Alternator to Starter Relay.

Notes
1) Distributor power from positive on coil.
2) Original ORANGE wire for radio lights used for lights on Tach/Accessory Gauges.
3) Aftermarket radio came with fused constant power, only for memory, straight to battery.
4) When running wires directly to original plastic connectors, used terminals that fit and lock in: PCO-1589PT and PCO-5950G
5) Original harness runs on driver side inner fender. Removed wiring from engine on passenger side and routed on passenger inner fender. Factory holes already there, used factory harness clips. No wires on engine.
6) Use harness tape, SUM-165111, not electrical tape, factory connectors, regular connectors, heat shrink, heat gun, good crimpers, etc. Bought all in bulk, cheaper and mistakes/changes don't leave you with not enough of this or that to continue.
7) New instrument circuit boards and lights. Made a small harness to ground every light, from the back of the instrument cluster to the dash.
8) Negative hub mounted on firewall next to battery.
9) Replaced headlights with H4 and new housings.
10) Replaced interior bulbs with LEDs.
11) Replaced taillight and reverse bulbs with ones for a Honda, more $ but last decades.
12) Replaced both flashers with the NAPA solid state one, it’s like $13 but well worth it. Directionals work awesome!
13) See Daniel Stern Lighting for bulb and flasher info.

Headlight Relay Kit
1) Bought from a FABO/FBBO member, crackedback I think.
2) Relays and fuses can be mounted anywhere, under the battery, radiator support.
3) 2 power wires can be routed across the firewall to the Alternator stud, or in front of the radiator support with the headlight harness.
4) Eliminates power going directly to headlight switch then back out to headlights.
Pic of my original wiring diagram, which is a large laminated color copy, I think I got it on ebay, and it was a great tool.

My harnesses were all new and in excellent shape before I did this, so leaving existing wiring was a good choice for me, plus all the major stuff was replaced or eliminated.

Also, I somehow had extra black and red vacuum port block of things, so I put them on the studs of my pos and neg junction blocks, and one on my alternator stud.

Another option, on my 62 Dart I bought an AAW harness/fuse box for $299.
Fuse box too big for an a-body, imo.
A ton of wire, but I had to make the dome light and rear tail light harness, and extend the headlight/directional harness, and other stuff.
I used the same factory and Pico connectors.

 

[67Dart273]

Some of the biggest issues with EFI are EMI/RFI, meaning electromagnetic interference. Relatively high power circuits and high power ignition can raise havoc with delicate sensors and trigger circuits. Pay attention to wire routing recommendations.

One thing you might want to learn about is called a "Faraday Shield." In this instance, this amounts to a shield over such as trigger wiring, that is grounded ONLY very near the computer end, and left floating and insulated at the sensor/ trigger end. The shield MUST be insulated under a jacket the full length.

Run circuits such as sensors and trigger cables down close to the engine block and close/ dressed against the fenders/ firewall to provide some shielding effect.

If those cables must cross ignition wiring, do so at a distance if possible, and as near a 90 degree cross if possible. NEVER run them parallel.

If you run an external regulator alternator, same deal. Keep the output and field/ VR wiring away from EFI delicate circuits.

Research main power and grounding recommendation. Part of the reason for this, is that the battery itself acts as a noise filter capacitor, and another reason is, that with certain types of wiring failures, you don't want to end up with the EFI grounding to become an unintentional path to ground for higher power circuits

Remember, the OEMs have spent MILLIONS developing and testing wiring/ grounding/ mounting and shield systems, and sometimes even those have RFI / EMI problems

One example seemed to happen to several people with Snipers in Fords. They would remove the air cleaner and the problem would stop!!! The theory was that the air filter was somehow picking up RF from the plug wires and radiating that noise such that it affected EFI circuits. Does this mean the air filter stud was not grounded? I still have not gotten a good explanation for the "why" on that

 

[matthon]

I did this on my efi.
ECM wiring and coil wire.
FiTech was throwing a code, called them up, and they provided recommendations.

Also, grounded everything, including the throttle bodies, well, they're aluminum, but the components, butterflies, linkage, intake studs and throttle bracket are steel.
One hub is visible by the battery.

Placing the wiring for the horn, distributor, and all the wiring to/from the alternator, on the inner fender, freed up the engine, and imo made it much cleaner.

The coil wire takes it's own path separate from everything else. Also, moving the coil to the inner fender keeps it cooler and away from other electronics, and mounted upright.

The ecm loom to the tb/ecm, the temp wire from the tb to the sensor, and the timing control wire from the tb to the distributor, are the only wires on top of the engine/intake.
All are shielded, the temp and timing wires are also wrapped in harness tape.

I may move the battery to the trunk, not sure. I don't like the idea of a giant power wire running the length of the car, underneath.

 

[go-fish]

@streetmachine79
I have been looking at D100 gas tank options and think I'm going to give something like a Tanks Inc. EFI 1st gen mustang tank a go and put it between the frame rails. I have a steel bed and would just fill up in the bed. You have a nice wood bed though. Just throwing the idea out there. I'm interested in the results of whatever you do.

 

[go-fish]

Here's an idea.

 

[streetmachine79]

I just wanted to say thank again to everyone whom contributed to this thread. I apologize for not replying sooner as I was dealing with some health issues and other things. Regarding the tank, rear tank idea was tossed around years ago but, I have a hitch on the back of this truck. I have the factory tank and believe it it is not cracked but, missing the very front tank support. I have considered the sniper tank but, it would not clear the current configuration but, I am considering other ideas and will have more questions in the future.