Crank is shot, do I stroke it or not?

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JoesEdge

JoesEdge

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Ok, so I've been reading info on 408 strokers for days now trying to decide if I should do a 360 rebuild or a 410 stroker build.

Here's what I have:

  • '74 Duster
  • 3 or 4 speed manual (came with a 3 speed, but a 4 speed is going in - already built)
  • 8 1/4" rear end with 3.21 gears (stock) or B-Body 8 3/4" with 2.76 gears (both peg legged)
  • good 360 block but heads and crank are trash (confirmed by IMM Engines)
  • bought XE268 cam, lifter, spring kit thinking I was going to rebuild 360 (until realized crank is shot)
  • crappy Hooker headers, but hoping to go with either Doug's or TTI (if I can afford it)
  • Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap Intake
  • Edelbrock 650 AVS carb (because I like AFB's - tune it and forget about it)
  • Or, also have a Holley 750 DP (list 4779-9) but hate fiddling with Holleys
  • MSD Pro Billet Distributor with MSD 6A box (came with the car)
  • wheels/tires - stick with the Weld Drag Lite, or 14" Rallye, or Mustang Bullt (bullits are on the back and welds are on the front now)

Yes, that's pretty much all the crap I have in my garage.

Intended vehicle purpose:

It's going to be a "daily driver" with a nice balance of performance, street-ability, mileage, and vacuum for power brakes - the goal is to build the car with pro-touring in mind because going in straight lines gets boring, and a spirited drive up to Big Bear or Lake Arrowhead (California) would be fun.

I'm not looking for all out horsepower. It will probably never see the drag strip. Well, maybe once or twice to Irwindale, just for fun. I do admit, I do love low end torque....FYI.

So right now, the engine is at IMM and I was given a choice and I'm having a hard time deciding. Since the crank is pretty much trash, I have to replace it. Brian (IMM) suggested I can either a) replace the 360 crank or b) spend a bit more and stroke it. Also, the heads will be replaced but I forgot to ask with what. Either way, this is a limited budget build so it's definitely iron heads. Also, I'll most likely be keeping the XE268H cam, lifter and spring kit. Oh, and definitely keeping the Air Gap.

Now that you know the limitations of the build, maybe you fella's can help me decide. I pretty much have two routes to go, and here they are:

Route 1:

Rebuild the 360 using replacement 360 crank, heads, pistons, and possibly keeping the stock rods, XE268H cam, with Air Gap intake and Edelbrock 650 AVS carb.

This route would mean I'd probably have to put the 8 1/4" back under the car since I don't have the funds to rebuild the 8 3/4" with different gearing, which is fine because then I don't have to modify my driveshaft either.

I won't have the fun of having all that torque of a stroker, but the money I save could be put towards body and paint.

Route 2:

Since I have to buy a crank anyway, then might as well stroke it. More torque, right? But, will the cam and head limitation make it not worth it?

Since the cam would be considered small for a stroked engine, then that should satisfy my street-ability requirement, no? It should produce tons of vacuum for the power booster as well.

Since the torque will be there, I can most likely still run that 2.76 gear in the 8 3/4" rear end I have and cruise down the highway at 70 to 80 mph (just to keep up with the big rigs on the 710 freeway) without it revving to kingdom come.

Anyway...what do you guys think? I hope I gave you enough info on the intended purpose of the car and what I want out of it to help me decide.

Keep in mind, this is being built by Brian at IMM so either way I feel that I'll be in good hands.

I added a pic so you can see what I'm working with. One of these days, I'll get around writing an official build thread. I have been keeping a picture log, so one of these days.
 

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I'm not readin your book (no offense), but what I always do when I have to make a complex decision is write down the pros on one side of a piece of paper and the cons on the other. Usually makes it easy.

Looks and sounds like you have a nice foundation.
 
If you have to buy a crank I would step up to the stroker. You can do the rear end as you come up with more money. If you don't build the foundation of the motor you want, you will spend more money later when you re do it. Better intake headers, carbs can always be added later.
If your heads are junk I would go with a set of aluminum. If you have to go through a set of used heads and have them ported you are not very far cost wise from new. They are probably what you really want anyway
I think your cam and small carb should be fine for a driver and if you don't abuse it your rear end will last for a while. The more torque at low rpms will help make up for the highway gears at low speeds
 
If Brian is doing his usual head work,absolutely stroke it. Makes those street friendly gears, fun.
 
You mention budget build and stroker in the same post, the two do not go together, unless your budget is $8-10k. Brian can build you a good solid 360 that'll do anything you want it to do. He's done enough stroker engines that he's probably got good 360 cranks stacked up like cord wood somewhere.
 
Remember, the pistons will be expensive for a stroker. My 2 cents - fresh up the 360, use the 8 1/4 rearend, and get your paint on. Then you'll have a nice street able car that looks and go's good.
 
A couple of things here jumped off the page at me.

I'm not looking for all out horsepower.
Click to expand...

And:

This route would mean I'd probably have to put the 8 1/4" back under the car since I don't have the funds to rebuild the 8 3/4" with different gearing, which is fine because then I don't have to modify my driveshaft either.
Click to expand...


In my mind, if you don't have it in the budget to do the 360 and rebuild the 8 3/4, then how would you make the stroker happen?

It seems to me that building a stoker motor would cost more than the 360 rebuild and the rearend combined.

A well put together 360 will make plenty of power for these little A bodies, IMO. A fun little package.

With that said, in your scenario, if you can afford to build a stroker, I would do the 360 and rebuild the 8 3/4 with better gearing and a suregrip.


Just my 2 pennies.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I'm not readin your book (no offense), but what I always do when I have to make a complex decision is write down the pros on one side of a piece of paper and the cons on the other. Usually makes it easy.

Looks and sounds like you have a nice foundation.
Click to expand...

Awww...hey but at least I can't be faulted for not giving enough info! So many times I come across these threads and the first thing you read is "What do you want it to do? What do you have to work with?" And, since I'm at the keyboard 9 hours a day I tend to type really really fast.

You're right...lay out the pros and cons of each. On the stroker side of things... since I need crank and pistons, that's 2/3 of the stroker kit right there.

Jo Diesel said:
If you have to buy a crank I would step up to the stroker. You can do the rear end as you come up with more money. If you don't build the foundation of the motor you want, you will spend more money later when you re do it. Better intake headers, carbs can always be added later.
If your heads are junk I would go with a set of aluminum. If you have to go through a set of used heads and have them ported you are not very far cost wise from new. They are probably what you really want anyway
I think your cam and small carb should be fine for a driver and if you don't abuse it your rear end will last for a while. The more torque at low rpms will help make up for the highway gears at low speeds
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking, but the aluminum heads would put me over budget. I do have the 750 Holley that can be used. I'm still debating. It would work well with the Air Gap. Thanks for the vote of confidence on the cam though. That helps!

Abodybomber said:
If Brian is doing his usual head work,absolutely stroke it. Makes those street friendly gears, fun.
Click to expand...

Nice! Wait, which street friendly gears? the 2.76:1 gears? Good thing if I start off with that is that I can swap them later. Just change out the chunk.

j par said:
Remember, the pistons will be expensive for a stroker. My 2 cents - fresh up the 360, use the 8 1/4 rearend, and get your paint on. Then you'll have a nice street able car that looks and go's good.
Click to expand...

The block also needs to be bored too, so new pistons are going in as well. The cylinders are good, but no cross hatch left so boring was recommended. I guess one more reason to go stroker, right?

famous bob said:
stroker-3:23-4 speed. tallest tire you can get on it:coffee2:
Click to expand...

That combination will work for the 360 build too, but I do like what you're saying. ;)
 
Jo Diesel said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHRYSLER-36...Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d05c3cc63&vxp=mtr

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/stroker-category.html
I bet you are pretty close to these prices to buy a new crank and pistons
Click to expand...

Funny that you mention Muscle Motors. My mother-in-law who worked for Ross Racing Pistons for many many years, is buddies with the guys at Muscle Motors. She used to hang out with them at the SEMA shows. She hated going to SEMA. I'd kill to go! LOL

Anyway, I think I know what you're tying to say. Are you saying that the cost of a crank and pistons for a 360 is about the same as the cost you listed? If I'm picking up what you're putting down, then sounds like you're thinking what I'm thinking. Might as well spend a little more and go stroker.


Bad Sport said:
In my mind, if you don't have it in the budget to do the 360 and rebuild the 8 3/4, then how would you make the stroker happen?

It seems to me that building a stoker motor would cost more than the 360 rebuild and the rearend combined.

A well put together 360 will make plenty of power for these little A bodies, IMO. A fun little package.

With that said, in your scenario, if you can afford to build a stroker, I would do the 360 and rebuild the 8 3/4 with better gearing and a suregrip.

Just my 2 pennies.
Click to expand...

That's good advice. But you're right, the cost of building the 360 and 8 3/4" (with gears, diff, bearings, and moving the spring perches) might be about the same cost of building the "mild" stroker (maybe a tad more).

That's something to consider.
 
you'll want to upgrade everything to go with the stroker, so consider that in the cost dept.
 
You said you aren't sure if you could afford good headers.

If your budget hinges on something that relatively small, I'm surprised a stroker motor is in the books.

I realize it's easy to add headers later but the stroker motor isn't worth much with out them.
 
FredS said:
you'll want to upgrade everything to go with the stroker, so consider that in the cost dept.
Click to expand...

Fred has an excellent point. the 8 1/4 diff open center with a stroker is going to make you severely traction deficient.
 
Do option 1. Brian can build a really nice 360 with what you have, and the crank kits are $300. At least the one for my truck's 360 was, with King bearings. Have the 360 internally balanced. It will run and feel better, and it means down the road if you want to go bigger you can reuse the flywheel. IMO, by what and how you're writing, the stroker will break the bank for any further work - and the car will need further work for the stroker. IMo - not worth it. You can ALWAYS replace the engine later. It's easier to do that than to drive on original bodywork...lol.
 
Just stroke it and be done. The other stuff can wait a year. You will be glad you did. Also go with the BBody 8 3/4.
 
I had $3500 into my short block with just machine work, balancing, parts. Don't think you would have any more than that in a stroker especially if it came balanced.
Now I am not happy with the power and if I can get my Dart done I am going stroker and a solid roller cam.
 
BrianT said:
You mention budget build and stroker in the same post, the two do not go together, unless your budget is $8-10k. Brian can build you a good solid 360 that'll do anything you want it to do. He's done enough stroker engines that he's probably got good 360 cranks stacked up like cord wood somewhere.
Click to expand...

That's funny. I built a 416 back about 1995. Had MAYBE 2500 bucks in it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
That's funny. I built a 416 back about 1995. Had MAYBE 2500 bucks in it.
Click to expand...

I never could figure out how if a forged 408 rotating assembly is about $2k how you could rack up $6k to $8k in machine shop services.
I guess $6k is if you had iron "X" heads and the $8k is if you had aluminum Eddy heads
 
Seriously 1995, have you priced out everything including machine work lately? Doing one yourself vs paying to have one done, is drastically different too.
 
FredS said:
Seriously 1995, have you priced out everything including machine work lately? Doing one yourself vs paying to have one done, is drastically different too.
Click to expand...

I think part of the problem is we're all seeing different prices around the country for machine work.
I know a shop that says roughly $1,000 labor only to get me a stroker shortblock ready.

These are November 2014 prices in Houston:

$40 clean/mag block
$195 bore/hone cylinders
$125 deck block
$150 line hone
$25 cam bearings
$15 freeze plugs
$250 assemble short block

$800 sub-total

$200 balancing (not including mallory)

$1,000 total


I've checked a dozen other machine shops (pretty much all are big time CHEVY racing engine places) in the Houston area (Pearland to Tomball) and these prices are right in line with what they charge.

I'm not sure if I missed something up there for that shortblock

But a forged rotating assembly and a cam kit shouldn't be no more than $2,500 total
 
d100clubcab said:
I never could figure out how if a forged 408 rotating assembly is about $2k how you could rack up $6k to $8k in machine shop services.
I guess $6k is if you had iron "X" heads and the $8k is if you had aluminum Eddy heads
Click to expand...

block = 300
Stroker kit = 2000

Bore cylinders
Hone cylinders
deck the block
Line hone mains
Hot tank
install cam barings
install freeze plugs
Balance the rotating assembly
sum = probably about a grand.

Heads = 1250
Port heads = 1000
new springs/locks/retainers = 250+
Rockers = 550
Custom push rods = 200
Roller cam = 350
Roller lifters = 450
bronze dist drive gear = 150

......Heck, I'm counting 7500 bucks and I'm tired of typing and nowhere near done adding up enough stuff to make a complete engine....but yes, building it yourself saves a bunch, but it is still not cheap unless you build for low power and/or use a bunch of junk yard stuff. JMO.

To the OP, I would stoke it....but I like big torque, and big power and don't mind spending a little more coin to get it.
 
flyfish said:
block = 300
Heads = 1250
Port heads = 1000
new springs/locks/retainers = 250+
Rockers = 550
Custom push rods = 200
Roller cam = 350
Roller lifters = 450
bronze dist drive gear = 150

......Heck, I'm counting 7500 bucks and I'm tired of typing and nowhere near done adding up enough stuff to make a complete engine....
Click to expand...

How much power you trying to make with $2550+ in your heads?
Why not just run Brian's RHS heads and save at least $1,000?

That's another problem
Some guys like myself just want some extra "grunt" around town or when he's trying to pull a stump across a few acres.

Different uses of the motor will give you different budgets
I'm also building a torquey "work truck" motor not a quarter-miler.
 
Okay, either way you go, you have it in more than competent hands to build what your budget allows. Now, deep down if your budget could get blown out of the water, Brian could build you one serious 408, that would scare the crap out of you, but you'd keep coming back for more.
 
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