Cruise AFR

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Map63Vette

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For those out there custom tuning or with access to scanners and the factory tables, what sort of AFR are your 5.7s set to cruise at? Even with the addition of my new 6 speed, my mileage has not really improved. I've fiddled with the tune a little bit and leaned it a tad, but I'm not sure how far I feel like pushing it without any knowledge. With the old 4 speed and the new 6 speed I was pretty much getting 16 on my normal commute (about 20 miles highway and a few miles in town). I've leaned my cruise from ~14.4 to 14.7 and think I picked up 1-2 mpg (haven't gotten my speedo working with the new trans yet), but I've estimated trip length using Google Maps. Reading online where some people are pushing 16.5+ AFR on other cars, but typically they're older style engines, so I'm not sure how the quick burn nature of the new hemi would like that.
 
Will have to check my MSD box, but it's whatever the stock settings are. I think it's in the 30-35 degree range off the top of my head.

Edit: Upon closer inspection it looks like I'm probably closer to 25 degrees give or take at cruise. The factory MAP sensor in the intake never seems to read quite the same as the sensor on my Megasquirt. WOT, even with the engine not running never quite makes it to 14 and change PSI (absolute pressure, not gauge obviously). Usually closer to 13.5, and I know I don't live on Mt. Everest.
 
Check your MSD graphs at 3000rpm ...take the amount of MAP additional timing you selected at 7PSIa and add it your programmed RPM timing and post the total figure up.....that'll be close enough to get an idea of total timing at cruise.
 
Btw.....if you didnt change the MSD MAP graph supplied with the. 6013..,,,you will be KILLING your WOT timing when intake pressure goes past 11 PSIa......
 
I'd say you have nowhere near enough timing into it. "Back then" light throttle cruise used to see up in the 50-55* range, sometimes more. I don't know why EFI would be any different
 
Agree with last poster , I think this would also allow you to lean off the cruise AFR .
 
I agree that "back then" numbers typically are way higher for several engines, but I've also heard a lot of concern regarding timing on the new hemis. The usual value you hear is don't push them past low 20's for timing at wide open if you want to keep your engine intact. The main reason I hear for this is just because the new hemi burns so fast (especially with dual plugs) that it really doesn't like/need the extra timing of yesteryear. Stock timing tables tend to agree with that, and the way a 5000+ lb Ram gets up and moves I'd tend to believe them. However, I'm not really sure what the stock tables have them cruising at. I realize light loads will let you advance the timing quite a bit, but I'm just not sure how far I can push it since this is still a "fast burn" kind of design.

The stock MSD curve does indeed pull timing, but if you compare it against the mechanical curve it seems to follow the ~20 degree idea. With the ~7 degree cut of timing at WOT on the MSD box I get a total of right around 20 degrees max. I don't quite understand why MSD went the route of having the MAP actually pull timing instead of just "not adding" it though. If they reduced the "mechanical" timing and had the MAP just drop any additional timing it would do the same thing. In math speak, the current timing curves give me 27 degrees of max mechanical timing with -7 degrees of vacuum advance for a total of 20 degrees. Having 20 degrees of max mechanical with 0 degrees of vacuum advance would do the same thing. I've redone my tables to work this way, but haven't tried running them yet.
 
I had mine right around 14.5-15:1 at cruise. Never checked mileage.

Mine liked a lot more timing at 6000+, but in the 22-24* range in 3000-5000 range if I remember correctly.

General rule of thumb:
03-08 5.7 heads & 6.1 heads - up to 22-24*
Eagle heads and apaches - up to 20-22*

Factory tune has lower kpa signals adding timing.
 
Hmm, I may have to see if my little code reader has an ignition advance monitor. My parents have a newer Ram and my grandparents have one that's the same year as my engine. Maybe I can do a little cruise and try to extrapolate a table for lower loads.
 
No need to go to all that effort. I have the stock tables. I'll find em and post em up.
 
bbswinger--yes it should but it doesn't on the Hemi 6 controller they have built in defaults on the map table--Steve
 
The MSD essentially has two tables you can tune. There's a strictly RPM based table which would be equivalent to a mechanical advance on a distributor. There's also a MAP based table that's more or less equivalent to a vacuum advance. The two are added together for total timing advance at any one time during operation. The difference being that a typical vacuum advance on a distributor only has the capability to add timing. The vacuum canister can only pull on the points, it can't push, so it will only ever be an addition to the base mechanical timing. However, the MSD is just a lookup table, so you can tell it to do whatever you want based on the MAP signal.

The stock table acts similar to a normal vacuum advance, it adds around 10 degrees of timing at high vacuum loads that tapers off as you get closer to atmospheric pressure (WOT). However, the table actually crosses over zero around 13 psi absolute (~1 psi of vacuum) and actually pulls timing even lower than the base timing table. I'll try to post a screenshot to explain better here in a few.
 
Okay, here's a screenshot of the software. The first picture is the stock tables as they come from MSD. If you take and add the values at any one point, you'll get your total advance. So say for cruising at 2000 rpm and light loads (high manifold vacuum, which equals low pressure on the top graph), you'd have 22 degrees of "mechanical timing" (bottom graph) plus 12 degrees of vacuum advance. If you punch it WOT at that state, your manifold pressure should go to around 14 psi (typical atmospheric pressure), which would give you 22 degrees of "mechanical timing" (still 2000 rpm on bottom chart) plus -8 degrees from the 14 psi on the top chart for a total of 22-8 or 14 degrees.

Now, if you modify the tables to look more like a typical distributor, that would mean your vacuum advance goes to 0 at atmospheric pressure (~14 psi). The second picture is an example of this. However, if you don't modify the "mechanical" advance, you might be pushing the limits of the engine. In the same example above (WOT at 2000 rpm), you're now pushing 22 degrees of "mechanical" timing and 0 degrees of vacuum. Not unreasonable numbers, but the mechanical chart climbs all the way to 27 degrees, which most agree is way past what the new hemis like to see. To combat this, you can lower the "mechanical" timing of the bottom chart. In the second picture I've pulled 7 degrees from the table, so now when you go WOT at 2000 RPM, you still have 0 vacuum advance, but you're mechancial is capped at 14 degrees, just like the stock table from the first picture.

The two pictures are almost equivalent from a total timing perspective, but you'd have to add a lot more vacuum advance at lower pressures to keep them more identical. If you were to make the vacuum advance graph a straight line that just slopes from some starting value to zero you'd be on the right path I believe.
 

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No need to go to all that effort. I have the stock tables. I'll find em and post em up.

Just looked up the tables you had in the other thread. The low rpm timing seems pretty wild. Seems odd that it barely runs any timing at all during idle. Might try to see how close I can make the MSD curves match the factory ones.
 
Shouldnt more manifold vacuum signal advance the timing?

The MSD doesnt measure vacuum...it measures PRESSURE at PSIa

This is one of the annoying aspects if u are an old school thinker like me - basically have to convert it back to " of vacuum

So essentially...the MAP should stop adding timing when pressure gets above 11 PSIa....but the MSD supplied tune starts to SUBTRACT timing from the programmed RPM based timing curve at this point....as a fail-safe against a lean wot dyno pull with too much all in timing.
 
Map63 - You've got the scenario correct...however I found it easier just to level off the MAP curve at zero at 11 psia and not worry about compensating for the "subtraction" of timing above this pressure

Something may interest you...

When I dynoed my car , I tried total timing at 23 degrees, 27 deg....then at 30 deg.

It made 11 rwhp more at 27 than 23 and It made 1.2 rwhp more at 30 deg.

I think 22 deg is too conservative for an NA G3....the curve that was suggested to me said dont go past 28 deg....which seems about right on my results.
 
Yep, the PSIa is what really trips most people up as opposed to PSIg. Figured that out pretty early, but the conversion is always annoying. Even more so when a lot of the readings and units you see are either KPa or inHg. I have my doubts both ways on the timing curve MSD suggests. Their manual would indicate it's a premium fuel tune, which seems more likely, but I've run 87 in mine since the day I put it in the car with no regrets and no issues so far (that I can tell at least). I've found the factory tables and graphed them out to see how they compare and it's interesting. Somewhat similar rpm based curve (albeit MSD's is a fair deal higher), but the vacuum setup is significantly different. The stock vacuum is more of a constant slope as opposed to the straight line then dropoff MSD approach. Figured I'd give it a shot for fun to see how it reacts.

Seems like one of the big differences most people have regarding timing may have to do with the carb/EFI setup. Most of the carb guys seem to have better luck with extra timing, though I think most EFI people typically run factory computers over the MSD, so they (unfortunately I'm in this camp at the moment) are probably a little under-represented. The intake might also play into this as well. The carb intakes are fairly well known for messing with things, so I'm sure it may have a hand in this as well.

I see it this way. The factory table information that has been pulled by people is the absolute max timing the computer is allowed to command and is supposed to result in maximum torque for the given load and rpm. It may pull away timing due to certain conditions, but it will never go above those limits. The factory has hundreds if not thousands of hours of dyno time determining these values, so I give them pretty good weighting in my mind regarding their usefulness. However, the big wrench in the works is that these values are based on a completely stock engine. Different intake, different exhaust, even the different fuel map I'm running will surely change things. What I really need is a steady state dyno in my garage to play with, lol.
 
Seems like one of the big differences most people have regarding timing may have
to do with the carb/EFI setup. Most of the carb guys seem to have better luck
with extra timing, though I think most EFI people typically run factory
computers over the MSD, so they (unfortunately I'm in this camp at the moment)
are probably a little under-represented. The intake might also play into this
as well. The carb intakes are fairly well known for messing with things, so I'm
sure it may have a hand in this as well.

All good points - I think some where between 24 and 28 all in WOT is what to aim for -

Then add at least 12 deg "Vac advance" till say 8 PSIa and make sure its adding 0 degrees by 11 PSIa

And....have a helper near by to listen for detonation while tuning it on a dyno.
 
Yeah, that last part is the kicker. It's a shame the dyno we were talking about getting here at work didn't pan out, though it would have been designed for lower speeds (heavy equipment thing). I'd have been more than happy to help them break it in had they bought it, lol.
 
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