CNC-Dude
Well-Known Member
Winston Cup teams have used both Metalax and Cryo processes for over 25 years now. There are several places over in NASCAR country that do both. One is/was called 300 Below if they are still around....
Cryo treating blocks?
- Thread starter gagembassett
- Start date
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I've had parts Cryo treated for at least 15 years. I live close to Indianapolis, IN, so I use Circle City Cryo, which is part of Circle City Heat Treat. It doesn't make the parts stronger, but it does release the stress from the manufacturing of metals and the stresses that occur from the casting process. I always use cryo for springs, retainers, valve keeper, and rocker arms on any engine I build at bare minimum. I also have an Edelbrock Victor 440 intake that's on my 499" that I had cryo treated to remove the stresses. I wanted to heavily port it and didn't want it cracking after I spent all that effort. There is a minimum charge of like $105 for the first 15 pounds and then $6 a pound additionally. They cut me a deal on blocks and heads, but it gets really expensive on those items. It's not in everyone's budget, but it does yield results in longevity of the parts.
Tom
Tom
StreetSleeper
Active Member
That shop did ALLOT. of CUSTOM. W O R K ! ! ! It is in the article. Best bet would be to have that exact shop repeat the build for you $$$$$$$ because that shop owner would emotionally remember what it took to build that engine build.
The moment he starts pointing you down a different path.., is the moment you will have to accept that you do not have deep enough pockets to make him repeat all of that work-but if he agrees with you on price, more power to you!
Oh I understand what you mean but I don't want even close to 730 hp. That's pushing it way too much for me. 600 to 650 would be my happy area for sure.
Dave999
Well-Known Member
works because the metal is a mixture i.e an alloy and becasue it has a crystaline structure of atoms that vibrate around a point. and their vibration is dependent on the temperaure of the metal. a smaller vibration of each atom allows it to fit through spaces it couldn't when vibrateing wildly.
if it was pure iron all the iron atoms align into neat rows like a grain over resonable distance, and sit there buzzing away at a level dependent on heat energy, occasionally you come across a boundary where the grain changes direction.
Any in neat rows can move slightly, like popping marbles around each other in the palm of your hand. Which is why cast stuff kinda moves, over a period of years after casting and first machining. The whole concept of a seasoned block is dependent on this idea
If you hammer, machine or heat the block you promote movement. It changes shape slightly. and the more movement there is, the more likley atoms move to positions where they get stuck, the boundaries between the grain move and tangle up, and the block esentially gets stiffer.
Basically you increase the instances of dislocations in the sturcture, the structure is less likely to move but many of the atoms in it, are not where they'd actually like to be, blocked from moving by a grain boundary or some foreign atom. Internal stresses increase but the benefit is a harder stiffer casting. Think pre stressed concrete....!
if you make the iron an alloy, by adding in atoms of a different size they act like dowels in the structure they reduce movement but becasue the iron atoms can't slide past the foreign atom as easily, any working of the block makes it get stiffer faster. which is why blocks n heads are made from a specific version of cast iron or aluminium which is an alloy, not pure iron not pure aluminium. you have the stiffness from day 1
with your iron atoms all pined into position by the introduction of the foreign atoms in the alloy, anything that is stuck at a grain boundary or by another atom by its nature would rather be somewhere else. so there are internal stresses
if you freeze it you make all of the atoms move closer, its like filling a jar with rice and then tapping it until all the rice settles, and then you can get another 1/2 inch in at the top.
the atoms all slip into a resting place that they could not achive at room or operating temperature
they do this becasue they never sit still at room temperature, they vibrate about a position quite wildly
when cooled to near absolute zero they have less energy becasue we sucked out the heat energy that made them vibrate they vibrate a lot less and can hence slip through gaps in the structure or past the foreign atoms to reach that place of rest that they could not reach before.
It is easier to shoot the bulls eye when standing still. much harder if you are jumping and running about.
If you went to absolute zero all vibration stops and all movement stops so they don't go that far
when the metal is warmed again they vibrate much more again, and can't move back to where they were, but don't particularly want to, now they have got to the best most natural resting place, something that was unachiavble at room temperature. becasue they were buzzing about way too much to hit the target
Its another way of untangling and re tangling the structure so it gains the appropriate level of stiffness with the least internal stress, so its less likely to move in use.. i.e the block will "move" less as it ages. it achieves by other means that status of "seasoned" . A stable structure that will not change shape as much as a fresh new casting that has only known casting, room and eventually operating temperatures.
next time you see an old but high end record player/turntable with cast aluminium platter.. notice it has a slight wiggle...it didn't when made, but 50 years later that platter has moved, the kids really didn't drop something on it to bend the spindle...natural ageing caused that. if the platter had been cryo treated it would more than likley not have gained a slight variation in its 50 years existance.
i belive a race team will often dig out a well used block on a virgin bore to build a max effort race motor over a brand new casting... they know the new casting will move in use.
or they may spend money on getting it heated and cooled or they may get it cryo treated when they probably woudn't on the old block that has done its "movmenet stuff" whilst working for a living in a car or truck.
Dave
if it was pure iron all the iron atoms align into neat rows like a grain over resonable distance, and sit there buzzing away at a level dependent on heat energy, occasionally you come across a boundary where the grain changes direction.
Any in neat rows can move slightly, like popping marbles around each other in the palm of your hand. Which is why cast stuff kinda moves, over a period of years after casting and first machining. The whole concept of a seasoned block is dependent on this idea
If you hammer, machine or heat the block you promote movement. It changes shape slightly. and the more movement there is, the more likley atoms move to positions where they get stuck, the boundaries between the grain move and tangle up, and the block esentially gets stiffer.
Basically you increase the instances of dislocations in the sturcture, the structure is less likely to move but many of the atoms in it, are not where they'd actually like to be, blocked from moving by a grain boundary or some foreign atom. Internal stresses increase but the benefit is a harder stiffer casting. Think pre stressed concrete....!
if you make the iron an alloy, by adding in atoms of a different size they act like dowels in the structure they reduce movement but becasue the iron atoms can't slide past the foreign atom as easily, any working of the block makes it get stiffer faster. which is why blocks n heads are made from a specific version of cast iron or aluminium which is an alloy, not pure iron not pure aluminium. you have the stiffness from day 1
with your iron atoms all pined into position by the introduction of the foreign atoms in the alloy, anything that is stuck at a grain boundary or by another atom by its nature would rather be somewhere else. so there are internal stresses
if you freeze it you make all of the atoms move closer, its like filling a jar with rice and then tapping it until all the rice settles, and then you can get another 1/2 inch in at the top.
the atoms all slip into a resting place that they could not achive at room or operating temperature
they do this becasue they never sit still at room temperature, they vibrate about a position quite wildly
when cooled to near absolute zero they have less energy becasue we sucked out the heat energy that made them vibrate they vibrate a lot less and can hence slip through gaps in the structure or past the foreign atoms to reach that place of rest that they could not reach before.
It is easier to shoot the bulls eye when standing still. much harder if you are jumping and running about.
If you went to absolute zero all vibration stops and all movement stops so they don't go that far
when the metal is warmed again they vibrate much more again, and can't move back to where they were, but don't particularly want to, now they have got to the best most natural resting place, something that was unachiavble at room temperature. becasue they were buzzing about way too much to hit the target
Its another way of untangling and re tangling the structure so it gains the appropriate level of stiffness with the least internal stress, so its less likely to move in use.. i.e the block will "move" less as it ages. it achieves by other means that status of "seasoned" . A stable structure that will not change shape as much as a fresh new casting that has only known casting, room and eventually operating temperatures.
next time you see an old but high end record player/turntable with cast aluminium platter.. notice it has a slight wiggle...it didn't when made, but 50 years later that platter has moved, the kids really didn't drop something on it to bend the spindle...natural ageing caused that. if the platter had been cryo treated it would more than likley not have gained a slight variation in its 50 years existance.
i belive a race team will often dig out a well used block on a virgin bore to build a max effort race motor over a brand new casting... they know the new casting will move in use.
or they may spend money on getting it heated and cooled or they may get it cryo treated when they probably woudn't on the old block that has done its "movmenet stuff" whilst working for a living in a car or truck.
Dave
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Dave999
Well-Known Member
i'm nuts enough to type it all out, if i'd copied it, the spelling and grammar would be so much better, and way fewer words would have been used. year 10/11 school materials science...
chrystaline solids, dislocations in chrystaline structure why alloying works in respect to changeing properties, work hardening etc etc hopefully enough to give the gist...mind its 25 years since i had to stand on ceremony and get the eager minds to engage in something more than personal stereos, gangsta rap, extra long home rolled smokes, and who they were going thump next.
I'm a bit rusty
Dave
chrystaline solids, dislocations in chrystaline structure why alloying works in respect to changeing properties, work hardening etc etc hopefully enough to give the gist...mind its 25 years since i had to stand on ceremony and get the eager minds to engage in something more than personal stereos, gangsta rap, extra long home rolled smokes, and who they were going thump next.
I'm a bit rusty
Dave
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Back in the 90's a customer of mine had a 300 Below shop here in phx.
He used to carry 2 rubber bands with him
One had been cryoed, it stretched twice as far as the other from the same batch.
He was into firearms accuracy & bench rest competition shooting.
He Cryoed lots of gun barrels/parts.
I'm sure it would have it's benefits
For Engine parts as well
I'm not sure if he's still in business.
CNC-Dude
Well-Known Member
A lot of people are very skeptical of it, but it definitely works. It may not work or benefit every single component that gets treated as much as other parts, but it does work!
Dave999
Well-Known Member
they even do it to radio/guitar amp/hifi valves......another place where consistent long lasting properties of the component metal parts is a desireable characteristic
I'd definitely understand why it has benefits. I'm not 100% understanding in the science behind it but I can understand the basic concept of it. I'd think it would make the block considerably stronger for the long haul. Goal is to make it really resilient to the wear of the 600 hp area for a few years at least. Block prep (i.e. shaving casting flash, rounding hard edges etc.) will be done before it is sent our for cryo so I think that would also have benefits to have it strengthened in its prepped state
anitrowarrior9
Well-Known Member
Alot of people argue what benefits you actually get from cryo. I've been told it only affects the surface and if you finish machine after the process you're defeating the purpose. I was researching this to have my sft cam and lifters cryo'd, I ended up having the REM finished instead.
stroked340
Well-Known Member
Give this guy a shout he'll tell you everything you'll need to know about cryo treating he has his own company along with building high dollar engines does a lot of work for NHRA teams Hekimianracing.com
Dave999
Well-Known Member
i would suggest it isn't just a surface treatment and given that the whole block is exposed to the mighty low temperaure it should have an effect on the whole structure.
chemical treatements..gases, liquid pickling nitriding etc and shot peaning are surface only
working, machining, hitting metal, work hardens it, It causes dislocations in the grain and tangles up the grain structure that tha atoms follow. makes me think the "working" should be done before treatment.
Cryogenic processing doesn't work harden it relives streses and it just makes it tougher realigns all the atoms in a nice structure of what I guess is their position of "best fit".
sounds like cryo last to me.
well felt nervouse about posting what i just said so went looking
The BIG chill - Cryogenic Metal Treatment Benefits May Not Be Visible But Are Real - Engine Builder Magazine.
you can't blieve evrything you read on the internet but this kind fits with my high school physics thinking... and i now know a bit more about it
Dave
chemical treatements..gases, liquid pickling nitriding etc and shot peaning are surface only
working, machining, hitting metal, work hardens it, It causes dislocations in the grain and tangles up the grain structure that tha atoms follow. makes me think the "working" should be done before treatment.
Cryogenic processing doesn't work harden it relives streses and it just makes it tougher realigns all the atoms in a nice structure of what I guess is their position of "best fit".
sounds like cryo last to me.
well felt nervouse about posting what i just said so went looking
The BIG chill - Cryogenic Metal Treatment Benefits May Not Be Visible But Are Real - Engine Builder Magazine.
you can't blieve evrything you read on the internet but this kind fits with my high school physics thinking... and i now know a bit more about it
Dave
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MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Sounds like your education system is much better over in the UK than here in the USA at least pertaining to these subjects. I didn't learn about materials science to this level until I started pursuing my engineering degree at university. It's a damn shame, so much time in American grade school is wasted on busy work or useless subjects no one cares about, and they wonder why students don't stay engaged and end up losing interest. Hell I hated school myself until I went to university, it was a frickin joke. The grade schools I went to were even considered better-than-average! But when the average is almost 30th in the world... oof I'm not looking forward to figuring out what I'm going to do for education when I have children.
The articles linked in here also give excellent explanations of how and why the cryo process works. The NitroFreeze one is perfect.
famous bob
mopar misfit
Sadly I cant remember the guys name , or where I ran across the article , but it was written by a nasa engineer , (rocket science) , his description didnt match any of the above posts , but he said it does work ....was written quite awhile back ...
stroked340
Well-Known Member
The gentleman I recommended above has a PHd in Quantum physics and mechanical engineering from M.I.T. so I think he knows what he's talking about,and what he's doing give him a call I'll bet he'll enlighten all of you 
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