Do shops still sabotage cars for profit?

[cudaspaz]

I have to agree with you. Every person is different and they all have their opinions and perspectives. That's why I work on the straight & narrow. Hard enough making money, no sense pissing off your bread & butter. But EVERY job has it's right & WRONG way of doing business. Ever watch that $7 an hour guy make sandwhichs in a fast-food place? They put on gloves, handle your food, then they take that wad of money that came from Gawd knows where, and handle it with that gloved hand that just made your sandwhich with! I've walked out of places after asking for my money back after watching that happen and I've never had a store manager argue with me yet on that point.....

Yeah, dealing with the public can be challenging. :-D

I have had that exact experience at a crystal restaurant.
Same scenario you described, but when I alerted the manager, she laughed at me.
I told her she will be getting a visit from the health inspector and she laughed again.
I was about an inch short of punching her in the freaking fat, face.

I think she and the rest of the crew were high on something.

 

[cudaspaz]

Wow..... Talk about a different approach! So what your saying is if a customer came into your shop for an oil change and two days later his brake sensor started touching the rotor, I'm sure he's going to return and ask: What did you do to my car?

He got the oil changed and now it's making a noise. Remember, the average consumer doesn't know much about cars and will suspect the shop did something wrong, and in the example you gave, you did. We go over EVERY CAR that comes into our shop. If I see drive belts starting to crack, I report it. If I see brake pads worn to within touching the sensor, I report on it. Even if the customer declines the repair, when that brake pad sensor starts squawking the next day, we can pull the file and remind the customer they were advised of the condition. Would you want a contractor coming to your house to hang sheet rock on rotting beams? Or would that be considered ripping off the customer too because your new sheet rock fell off of rotting beams that your weren't made aware of?

There's a difference between fixing cars and performing maintenance. Maintenance is being made aware you will need brakes within the next month as opposed to just bringing the car in for an oil change and having the "technican" miss the bad brakes. That's the QUICKEST way to loose a customer! That's when you have to "fix" the car with an angry and un-trusting consumer at your shop. IF they come back to your shop.

And as for a seasoned diag. tech swinging engines, well.... shop policy varies from place to place, as you pointed out.

Agreed.

This reminds me of the fact that you have to note virtually everything you find remotely questionable as everyone automatically assumes you messed up their car even if you only changed the oil but all of the sudden the check indian light is on after a trip from Atlanta to Savanna for instance.

I will be experiencing this exact complaint on Monday.

Just part of the job.

 

[FASTBACK340]

As for my professionality: PM bpwordman. Ask him what kind of professional I am. So don't even go there.

WHOA! I posted that I'm professional as a testament to my integrity at work. The thread started as questioning shop practices and mechanics being thieves in not so many words. In NO WAY was I inferring that you or your skills were at question. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me!

What I don't understand is people not wanting to know what's going on with their cars though..... I mean, would they feel better knowing they need just pads before it becomes pads & rotors...possibly a blown caliper too if neglected long enough?

This is an actual cell-phone picture of a car that came in with a low brake pedal. And no, she wasn't a regular customer.

That's a 2002 Infiniti G-20 that wore away the friction material, metal backing, and ate into the edge of the caliper before the piston popped out, causing her low pedal. This was such an incredible display of neglect, I can't help to think of why she kept driving even after the brakes started screeeeeaching and throwing sparks!

Now, tell me that a person who is stupid enough to get upset about being warned that they might kill themselves or someone else isn't capable of doing this? I bet THEN they'll be looking at someone to blame for not telling them. No one in this day and age wants to be held accountable for their actions. Sue...Sue...sue. That repair order is considered a LEGAL DOCUMENT that can be subpoenaed and if you warned the customer about an un-safe condition, which is the example given, then for the life of me I can't understand why you wouldn't (or shouldn't) cover your butt if the repair is declined and there's trouble. I'm not saying your right or wrong, I just don't see any benefit in not protecting yourself, and your shop, from legal complications. Where I live and work (unfortunately...) we have to worry about assholes passing the blame, which rolls downhill as we all know.

Again, I wasn't trying to discredit you. I know what you have to do for a living all too well. I was justifying my post stating that I personally work honest.

 

[ramenth]

WHOA! I posted that I'm professional as a testament to my integrity at work. The thread started as questioning shop practices and mechanics being thieves in not so many words. In NO WAY was I inferring that you or your skills were at question. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me!

What I don't understand is people not wanting to know what's going on with their cars though..... I mean, would they feel better knowing they need just pads before it becomes pads & rotors...possibly a blown caliper too if neglected long enough?

This is an actual cell-phone picture of a car that came in with a low brake pedal. And no, she wasn't a regular customer.

That's a 2002 Infiniti G-20 that wore away the friction material, metal backing, and ate into the edge of the caliper before the piston popped out, causing her low pedal. This was such an incredible display of neglect, I can't help to think of why she kept driving even after the brakes started screeeeeaching and throwing sparks!

Now, tell me that a person who is stupid enough to get upset about being warned that they might kill themselves or someone else isn't capable of doing this? I bet THEN they'll be looking at someone to blame for not telling them. No one in this day and age wants to be held accountable for their actions. Sue...Sue...sue. That repair order is considered a LEGAL DOCUMENT that can be subpoenaed and if you warned the customer about an un-safe condition, which is the example given, then for the life of me I can't understand why you wouldn't (or shouldn't) cover your butt if the repair is declined and there's trouble. I'm not saying your right or wrong, I just don't see any benefit in not protecting yourself, and your shop, from legal complications. Where I live and work (unfortunately...) we have to worry about assholes passing the blame, which rolls downhill as we all know.

Again, I wasn't trying to discredit you. I know what you have to do for a living all too well. I was justifying my post stating that I personally work honest.

If you go back to the thread you posted on this set of brakes when you posted it, you'll see that I agreed with you one hundred percent when you posted it. I'm not disagreeing with you, John, if you take a look at the examples I gave you in my previous post on how I've looked over the cars in the past, you'll see I've done a fairly good job of it. Without a courtesy check. To cover my *** and the customers ***. I'm less worried about my *** then the idea that if neglected something, someone might get hurt. Sometimes, though, like you say, that piece of paper can be what stands between us and the liability. Did the customer decline the courtesy check? If so, was it written that he did? Was a copy of the declined courtesy check given to the customer? You and I both know, working in NY, that the customer actually has to physically sign everything, from the original repair order allowing us to bring the car into the shop, to the the courtesy check at the time it's presented at the counter, to the estimate turning the needed repairs in to an RO. If the customer isn't present, then the writer has to sign the repair order on the behalf of the customer with something like "customer approved via phone 1:31 PM." That's actually what protects our liability. Personally, I really won't touch a car without the customers signature or representative signature without it, because of the liability. It's something the DMV has set in place to protect the shops from sue happy customers, and to protect the customers from shops who do unapproved work just to run up the bill.
The example of over hearing a service writer mumble that I look over a car too well. I'm actually proud of that one. It tells me something: that I'm looking the cars over for customer peace of mind, that the business I'm working for is showing an increase in sales because of me, and that I'm profitable to have around, and at the time, it proved the service writer was an idiot who couldn't do his freakin' job.
I can also say with pride that the second Ford dealership I worked with as a tech also saw their customer service survey ratings going up and the service writer loved me for it. That's something I can take pride in, too.

 

[cudaspaz]

To sum it up, we have established the fact that the car has to be looked over very well in order for the technician to cover his rear so the customer can't say he neglected to find an issue with the car, yet the customer is usually so sceptical that they think you are trying to sell them things they don't need although you are just alerting them of possible issues that may need adressed now or in the future.

The thing that sucks is when you get customers that ignore your stern recommendations of necessary repairs because they are too cheap to fork out a few bucks, then your warning becomes reality for them a couple days or weeks down the road and they come back crying for you to give them the deal of the century.

Man, I can't even begin to tell you how many different scenario's I have had regarding this, but YES, extensive documentation is the key to covering your arse, and also explaining to customers that you don't have a crystal ball to forsee problems down the road is sometimes next to impossible when dealing with idiots who want to drive a highline car yet can barely afford their mortgage payment.

 

[65 Dartman]

2 stories concerning my local Dodge/Chrysler dealer: My wife took our '07 Liberty in yesterday for its 21,000 oil change and while there the tech came out with a dirty air filter and told her to let me know the Jeep needed one. Picked one up today and replaced the OEM one (which was dirty). While looking up the air filter number at the store I noticed it seemed to be a Jeep-specific air filter (and the dealer doesn't sell and most likely stock Jeep specific parts). The dealer has always given me the choice of doing the work myself or having them (or anyplace else I chose) do the work.

2nd story - I had taken my RHD mail Jeep Cherokee in to the above dealer for state inspection and it failed because of lower ball joints. No problem, do the job since I didn't have time. Picked it up and used it on my route the next day. Got 12-14 miles up the road and kept hearing something really odd. Got to the sub-station post office and called my wife to come drive me the rest of the route cause something was wrong with my Jeep. I decided to deliver one more package right up the road from the sub PO and got less than a quarter mile when the left front wheel fell off and tore up the fender as well!! Called the dealer since they were the last ones to work on it. They had the towing guy come pick it up. They let me know that the right front wheel was somewhat loose as well although not like the left - the tech had not tightened the lugs up. They replaced not only all the front lugs/chrome nuts but the rears as well and replaced the fender, all no charge of course. Owner's son (the service manager) took responsibility and readily admitted the tech (and the service department) screwed up. We still take our vehicles there.

 

[Guitar Jones]

Everybody makes mistakes, it's all in how you handle them.

 

[avarageerod]

Everybody makes mistakes, it's all in how you handle them.

not me
I mean I,
ah crap

 

[lamont 71duster]

i got a story for ya.i have an 2004 dodge ram i bought it with19k miles on it.i dont drive it very much.well i noticed a noise coming from the rearend so i call the dealership i bought it from and tell them they tell me to bring it in.when i get there i talk to service manager explain what noise its making.he has an attitude like im bothering him.so i answer the normal questions like milage,yr ex!!!! well then he says did u check the fluid in the rear.i tell him no i didnt cause i didnt think that was normal maintenance.then he says well do u check your oil.and i say yes then he says well the rearend is no different.so then i get mad and tell him.if i wanted to crawl under a vehicle and work on it everyday then i wouldnt of bought a new truck.long story short they fixed the rearend.then 3k miles later it went again.so dealer #2 fixed it right without attitude

 

[RedFish]

Tis the season. Sad but true.
Very little work comes in between Thankgiving and New Year. Cash for cluc
nkers took a toll on the service departments as well. 'Shady Grady' will try to earn some money. The "take advamtage of ladies only" is a misconception too.

 

[ramenth]

To sum it up, we have established the fact that the car has to be looked over very well in order for the technician to cover his rear so the customer can't say he neglected to find an issue with the car, yet the customer is usually so sceptical that they think you are trying to sell them things they don't need although you are just alerting them of possible issues that may need adressed now or in the future.

The thing that sucks is when you get customers that ignore your stern recommendations of necessary repairs because they are too cheap to fork out a few bucks, then your warning becomes reality for them a couple days or weeks down the road and they come back crying for you to give them the deal of the century.

Man, I can't even begin to tell you how many different scenario's I have had regarding this, but YES, extensive documentation is the key to covering your arse, and also explaining to customers that you don't have a crystal ball to forsee problems down the road is sometimes next to impossible when dealing with idiots who want to drive a highline car yet can barely afford their mortgage payment.

Oh wow, 'spaz, for everytime I've heard, "well, my car was in here a little while ago and you fixed a headlight and now my check engine light is on..."
Hard to hold your tongue in a situation like that. For the life of me I want to look at the person and tell them that I'm not Harry Potter, I don't have a magic wand to wave over the car and cure every problem the car will ever have when you came in three months ago for a blown light. Now you have to take the time to explain to the customer that a blown headlight has nothing to do with an gross evap code. After you pull the paperwork you find out that it's been three months since the last time you saw her and that a lot can happen in three months. But she will always argue that it was just last week, even though the closed RO shows that a headlight was put in and paid for three months ago, it's all your fault because you had to have done something to the car! Even though the gas cap is broken and it's at the other end of the car from where you worked on it last time.
Or when the guy comes in and has an estimate you gave him a month ago and wants another estimate and then acts surprised that the exact same thing is wrong and it costs the exact same amount of money as a month before. Like he expected the car to some how have fixed itself and wouldn't need the same parts and labor. Or he expected the parts and labor to have gone down in that interval.

 

[FASTBACK340]

Oh wow, 'spaz, for everytime I've heard, "well, my car was in here a little while ago and you fixed a headlight and now my check engine light is on..." ......................

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that too....

Or when the guy comes in and has an estimate you gave him a month ago and wants another estimate and then acts surprised that the exact same thing is wrong and it costs the exact same amount of money as a month before. Like he expected the car to some how have fixed itself and wouldn't need the same parts and labor. Or he expected the parts and labor to have gone down in that interval.

That's why we document everything, including the repair order notations like you mentioned and the phone contact times. The car with the missing brake pad should have been looked at somewhere between when the noise started and the sparks started to fly.....

Bottom line is this: Automotive repair shops are notoriously shadey and it's so hard to shake that reputation. At times it seems like the customers are ready for a fight for no reason.I wear latex work gloves to keep my skin clean and prevent crap from entering my bloodstream through the skin. I had a customer taunt me if I thought I was a surgeon. I asked him when was the last time he saw a surgeon with blood on his hands at a dinner party?

Everyone wants cutting edge technology but no one wants to acknowledge the fact that auto repair is nothing what it used to be. But assholes who rip people off deserve all the bad press they can get. Leaving a wheel loose and owning up to it and doing the repairs is one thing. Mistakes happen, we all do something stupid from time to time. But thieves I have issues with.

Damn... and I have to work tomorrow. :angry7:

 

[ramenth]

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that too....



That's why we document everything, including the repair order notations like you mentioned and the phone contact times. The car with the missing brake pad should have been looked at somewhere between when the noise started and the sparks started to fly.....

Bottom line is this: Automotive repair shops are notoriously shadey and it's so hard to shake that reputation. At times it seems like the customers are ready for a fight for no reason.I wear latex work gloves to keep my skin clean and prevent crap from entering my bloodstream through the skin. I had a customer taunt me if I thought I was a surgeon. I asked him when was the last time he saw a surgeon with blood on his hands at a dinner party?

Everyone wants cutting edge technology but no one wants to acknowledge the fact that auto repair is nothing what it used to be. But assholes who rip people off deserve all the bad press they can get. Leaving a wheel loose and owning up to it and doing the repairs is one thing. Mistakes happen, we all do something stupid from time to time. But thieves I have issues with.

Damn... and I have to work tomorrow. :angry7:

And that's where being able to go back into the computer system to be able to pull out the closed RO or the open estimate helps. Yeah, sometimes the hard copy has to come out, especially if it carries hand written notations for codes and diag procedures from a previous tech who may have looked at it a month before and now it's up to you to fix it. (Hate it when that happens, but it happens.) Or it contains your own notes and procedures so you don't wind up having to repeat yourself. This way, too, you can verify the original problem still exists and no new ones have crept up in a month's time.

Unfortunately, you're all too right about the technology and things not being what they used to be. The serious shop owner these days, working on todays cars will make the scanner purchase, pricey as it may be, to keep up. The shady guy will buy a code reader and advertise check engine lights, then make the assumption that the part is bad. (On a side note, I don't how many times I've had a customer come into Ford with a lean code on a Windstar who had some other shop replace an 02 sensor because the code explanation was 02 1,1 was lean or 02 2,1 was lean.) Then have to explain that the O2 is fine, it's running lean because of a blown intake gasket and the intake gasket is blown because the valve cover is wrong.

It's given those of us who are honest in our jobs and seek to treat our customers right a bad reputation. Unfortunately, though, just like all trades, we just have to keep trying that much harder to win back the trust they've punted.

 

[inkjunkie]

just the title to this is scary. i used to do all the repair work on my sisters car but due to the weather we were having took it to the local guy. he hit her up for a complete 4 wheel brake job. i went with her to pick it up, should have seen the look on the shop owners face when my sister threw my creeper on the ground so she could take a look, she could at least identify new vs old brake parts. he did not replace a single part on her car....

 

[cudaspaz]

Yes it seems that when someone brings you their severely neglected piece of crap to you for a repair, you automatically become married to every single problem the car has ever had and will have for the rest of it's miserable life.

Luckily, I have a pretty good ability for weeding these types of idiots out before I even agree to see the car, but I also have seen the Jeckyl/hyde customers that I never saw comin.

I have to share this one guys as it's just too good to let go.

A few years ago I got called to put some brakes on a 1996 mercedes S-500 right.
So I go armed with all the right parts, but before i work on the car, the customer wants me to drive her in her car to Starbucks down the street so she can get her morning coffee fix.
Okay ,no problem, I will do it, so we go get her coffee and she is all sweet like a little old, Granny should be all full of niceties and warm conversation.

So...I get back to her house and put the front brake pads, rotors and sensors on the car, torques the wheel bolts, and tell her I'm going to test drive it to seat the pads, and this is when her head spins around and her eyes get wide and she say's "NO!, I am going with you to make sure it's done right and I'm driving it."

I say "That's fine, let's go."

Well, right ouside of her driveway was a main street with a red light and a line of traffic.

She immediately started yelling F@@k you you sonof a bi#@H to other drivers that were stopped at the red light and could not go anywhere to let her in line and she flew off the freaking handle and told me that she's lucky she did not carry a gun otherwise she would be shooting people in traffic.

I was like "WTF?" to myself and said something like "There is no way they can let you in without ramming the guy in front of them off the road."

She ignored me and finally began going down a side street and a big down hill slope.

She all of the sudden slams on the brakes and all of these glass and plastic bottles, books, and other items slide off of the rear seat and onto the floor and seatbacks of the front seats and she say's "What was that noise!"

I said "It was all the bottles careening off of the rear seat."

And she lets off the brake and hits them again and say's, "NO, that noise!"
I was like "WTF?" LOL.

I said, "I don't know what you are hearing, but I don't hear it."

I told her to do a gradual stop and finally I heard what she was talking about, it was the normal brake chatter you get right before you come to a stop when the pads are just about to stop the wheel and I explained the theory behind this and why it does it with the motion of the brake friction, vs rubber front end bushings etc, and she made such a big freaking stink about it, but finally calmed down and accepted that her car was fine, but it took alot of patience on my part to keep this freaking spycho from flipping out and running someone off the road.

I can't tell you how glad I was to get the check and never do business with this freaking psycho ever again.

I should have known better when I saw a John Kerry bumper sticker on her car.

 

[ramenth]

The customer from hell...

Since this thread has seemed to taken a slide sideways: don't you like those mystery noises? Here's the RO, take the car for a ride, the customer's complaining about a noise in the rear.

Okay, no problem, grab the seat bag and the floor mat, hit the parking lot, take the car out. Only to hear five hundred noises coming from the rear. Pull over to take a look, because it's obviously in the car, not with the car and soccer mom has all five kids' sporting equipment rolling around in the back of the SUV. The shin guards, the football helmets, the soccer balls, all hitting each other. Throw in little Marcia's batton's from marching band practice and you have yourself a varitable symphony going on in the back of the car. And you can't hear one damned noise the car might be making because of it.

I love how the customers assume we drive their vehicles enough to know which one of the millions of noises it's making is the new noise, and then leave all their s*** in the car for us to have to unload in our bays to have to try to figure out what the vehicle is doing that it's not supposed to. Oh, and we haven't seen this customer since the car went off warranty fifty friggin' million miles ago. They've been told by another shop "it's a manufacturer thing, take it to the dealership, they'll know what to do."

 

[1wild&crazyguy]

shops... ha I used to work for goodyear express tire as a tech and let me tell ya..
1st the tire guys would smoke weed in the used tire shed next to the shop.
I test drove a geo metro for the same tire geeks 1 time and the wheels began to fall off so I pulled off the freeway, called, and waited for the manager to bring me a star wrench, luckily they tightened up fine.

2nd A guy came in for an AT drain/fill on a toyota, but the lame brain 'tire guy turned tech' drained the front axle instead and when he checked the dip and saw it full, he assumed someone filled it for him.....that car came back.

3rd The tire guy did an oil change one time, double gasket'd the filter and it leaked down the pan rail on a dodge mini van, salesman without consulting one of us decided it was a rear mail seal leak and sold the job 1,150 or so, this was an all wheel ptu setup where ya had to drop the k mem,axles,trans and basically end up with the engine held by a jack, anyhow I found what had happened yet the manager and salesman would refund the customer and decided to go through with the rear main seal. Now here's where it gets real fk'd... I take it all down and as I'm about to do the rear plate for the main seal, the 'head tech' comes over and says 'let me do the seal and apply the sealer and such' 'these are easy to screw up' huh??? guess what? it leaked and came back for another round.....

4th
this cute chick comes in for her 65k service or whatever and has wheel locks, so we look in the usual places..center console, glove box, etc.. and what in the glove box? a stack of pics of that same girl ''speaking into the microphone'' if U know what I mean...well the salesman standing there grabs'em and the pics go around the shop faster than you can blink an eye, they get grease on'em....dumb asses....cause she see's the grease and is mortified, comes back with her boyfriend and throws a fit, everyone laughed at them and the asst manager told him he was 'hung like a light switch' of all things...

That was only 1 months worth.

holy sht... I never felt better about quitting a job, thats fo sho

 

[Randy WM]

It still goes on and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. And if you're going to do this, why make it hard on yourself, like, taking an ice pick to a heater core like one shop I know of? Seriously, why would anyone sabotage one of the most difficult parts to replace on a car? A heater core. Not smart, not very smart at all.

 

[ramenth]

It still goes on and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. And if you're going to do this, why make it hard on yourself, like, taking an ice pick to a heater core like one shop I know of? Seriously, why would anyone sabotage one of the most difficult parts to replace on a car? A heater core. Not smart, not very smart at all.

Wow. A really, really dumb saboteur right there!

 

[mullinax95]

Have you ever got a price for a heater core install?

I can't say from personal experience but it's not very cheap. Labor is what costs not the part.

 

[Randy WM]

Have you ever got a price for a heater core install?

I can't say from personal experience but it's not very cheap. Labor is what costs not the part.

They're not cheap, but they are a lot of work and i don't think the payoff is worth the amount of work that has to go into it. Ford trucks for instance; you have to remove the entire dash along with the steering column. It's like they built the entire truck around the heater core.

Most dishonest people aren't too bright.

 

[mullinax95]

They're not cheap, but they are a lot of work and i don't think the payoff is worth the amount of work that has to go into it. Ford trucks for instance; you have to remove the entire dash along with the steering column. It's like they built the entire truck around the heater core.

Most dishonest people aren't too bright.

I agree with you that.

 

[BigHook]

I tend to think a little of that still goes on these days unfortunately. Not long ago, my GF took her Olds Intrigue in for a routine tire rotation at the local Goodyear Tire "big shop". She was already a returning customer. I dropped her off so she could drive it home. The Olds is ready to go in the parking lot. I notice that both front tires look a little low on air. I snap a tire gauge on them and they have around 20 lbs in them. Slightly miffed, I go in and tell the guy at the desk that they're a bit low on air. He takes care of it but I'm thinking, hec, I could see maybe one tire's pressure overlooked but both? The guy that did the rotation was either the stoner of the day, or made on honest mistake, or hoping she comes right back as a result of the car driving funny.

 

[ramenth]

They're not cheap, but they are a lot of work and i don't think the payoff is worth the amount of work that has to go into it. Ford trucks for instance; you have to remove the entire dash along with the steering column. It's like they built the entire truck around the heater core.

Most dishonest people aren't too bright.

That's what I was thinking of, too. Loose a mechanic or your bay for a day on changing out a heater core in a Taurus when in the same amount of time you could have a day of brakes lined up, honestly, making better money and quicker to boot.