drag racing induction sys

-

hemifish69

Dain bramaged Hemi freak
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
163
Reaction score
3
Location
Saint Louis
Took the 472 Hemi 1969 barracuda to test n tune at Gateway in Illinois Wednesday.

1st time ever for me or the car.

Apparently a Holley 830 cfm double Pumper on a mopar dual plane isn't enough for this motor.

I was topped out by the 1/8 mile, went 14.5 sec, 94 MPH.

I think it needs more carbuerators

What's going to be better? I want a cross ram setup, my Chevy friend sez single dominator.

I really, really want the cross ram, but he sez its too old school.
 
I have seen a Holley 830 dp carry a 500+ cubic inch engine to high 10s. In fact, it's my old 830 that hasn't been rebuilt in 25 years. It's on my friends 502.

That 830 should take you well beyond a 14.5. I'm not saying it's exactly the right carb for you but what I am saying is that, if the carb is good, you have something else wrong.
 
If your car topped out in the 1/8, it isn't your carb. It sounds like you have 6.30 gears or something. A slant six 1bbl will do over 95 mph (not in a 1/4, of course), so I'm sure an 830 dp wouldn't stop you at 94.
 
Tell a about your gears tires and converter.
 
you have something else wrong.

Yes, i have to believe there's a fuel delivery issue or serious ignition problem for it to completely fall off early and run that pathetic time.

Info, info, info, can really help us try and diagnose the problem. I can't wait to see your car run close to it's potential. :thumbrig:
 
Rear end: HD Dana 60 from a 1 ton Chevy, 35 spline axles, Yukon spool, 4:10 gears. Disc brakes, super stock springs. 15x10 rims w/ Mickey Thompson street slicks. Hooking wasn't a problem.

Transmission : built 727, STD pattern, billet 3000 stall.

Engine: 472 Hemi. 9.5 compression, iron heads, mild port job. Stroked crank, STD bore.
Mopar dual plane single Carb intake, 830 Holley
 
I forgot: 27" tall tire.

No problems doing burnout, but couldn't get engine to go above 5300 rpm at top end.

Also: Holley blue pump, non return regulator, 3/8 fuel line, #8 fittings at fuel cell, Carb.

Hydraulic can. Don't remember specs, at work, cam card at home. As are the time slips.
 
Ignition is mopar electronic.

Going down track, car just felt like a go cart with a governor on it.
 
Rear end: HD Dana 60 from a 1 ton Chevy, 35 spline axles, Yukon spool, 4:10 gears. Disc brakes, super stock springs. 15x10 rims w/ Mickey Thompson street slicks. Hooking wasn't a problem.

Transmission : built 727, STD pattern, billet 3000 stall.

Engine: 472 Hemi. 9.5 compression, iron heads, mild port job. Stroked crank, STD bore.
Mopar dual plane single Carb intake, 830 Holley

OK. I'm sticking by my first post. That carb, if it's in proper working condition, correctly jetted, and tuned should not have a problem on that engine.

You are barking up the wrong tree thinking about a carb replacement at this point.
 
Something I didn't consider. This engine sits higher than it should, due to an engine plate I used. My air cleaner may be too small, for Hood clearance . That's where ill start.

Can't get back to Gateway for two weeks. So I'm not going to be able to find out until then.
 
Something I didn't consider. This engine sits higher than it should, due to an engine plate I used. My air cleaner may be too small, for Hood clearance . That's where ill start.

Can't get back to Gateway for two weeks. So I'm not going to be able to find out until then.

you didn`t give a lot of specifics on the hemi engine. having owned 2 of them myself, that is not enough carb to feed it if it`s healthy. my bone stock one went 12.90`s at tulsa when tuned right, on the old -slick track.(had 2" headers on it tho) fuel delivery is big, and u may be on to something w/ the air cleaner deal. just sayin that is awful for an elephant motor .--------------------bob:coffee2:
 
you didn`t give a lot of specifics on the hemi engine. having owned 2 of them myself, that is not enough carb to feed it if it`s healthy. my bone stock one went 12.90`s at tulsa when tuned right, on the old -slick track.(had 2" headers on it tho) fuel delivery is big, and u may be on to something w/ the air cleaner deal. just sayin that is awful for an elephant motor .--------------------bob:coffee2:

I'm getting some conflicting advice here.

I was starting to think a cross ram with the two 4 bbls was a step in the right direction, but I have several people (here and in meatspace) telling me an 830 double pumper would be fine.

I understand that's a big carb for other engines (like wedges) but the size of my intake ports makes me think multiple carbs are the way to go.

Seriously, the cross ram wouldn't have lasted if it didn't work.

And yes, 2" headers, cam specs are out in the garage, I'll post later.
 
Also: Holley blue pump, non return regulator, 3/8 fuel line, #8 fittings at fuel cell, Carb.

It could stand to have a better fuel system. Holly blue pumps and for me personally their regulators are not know for being consistent no matter how new they are.

The 830 isn't holding you back to the point a bigger carb is going to put you in the 11's. But if the cars purpose is drag racing I would research a single plane intake and maybe a bigger carb.

Heres my questions:

How are you launching the car? Foot brake/Trans brake What's the RPM?
What rpm are you shifting at?
What is the 60ft and 330ft times?
Are the secondary's opening?
Any idea what the fuel pressure is during the run?
Have you checked the fuel pressure drop across the fuel filter?
Engine Timing? Advance?
What are the valve spring pressures?
Car weight?
Dragging brakes E-Brake?
Does the car have 2 or 3 1/2 inch exhaust with mufflers?


......Perform this test and compare it to your expectations.....

Barry Grant Fuel Systems Fuel Can Test
Author: Barry Grant Fuel Systems

The Fuel Can Test

There's been no shortage of well-researched and well-written articles and books explaining the workings of the fuel system. However, many racers, both novice and experienced alike do not fully understand the physics of fuel flow and horsepower. To produce torque and horsepower requires a mixture of air and fuel. To produce 1-horsepower for 1-hour requires approximately .5-lbs of gasoline. If you ran a single-cylinder engine, like the one in your lawnmower, under a load of 1-horsepower for 1-hour and weighed the fuel tank before and after, the tank would weigh approximately .5-lb (five-tenths of a pound) lighter. Therefore the equation for fuel flow is 1-H.P. = .5-lb of fuel, per hour.

This is expressed on a dyno sheet as B.S.F.C. (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption). Highly-tuned racing engines can sometimes by more efficient, yielding B.S.F.C. figures of around #.40 which means 4-tenths of a lb of fuel, per h.p., per hour. Incidentally, the formula for Alcohol is approximately 1-lb of fuel, per h.p. per hour which, as a consequence, necessitates the running of a belt-drive pump, but that's another story.

Typically, a 600-HP engine will require 300-lbs of gasoline per hour and, by the same formula, an 800-HP engine needs 400-lbs per hour. Remember, these quantities of fuel have to be delivered past the needles and seats and the fuel pressure regulator. Consider also, the fuel delivery system has to combat 'G' Forces: loadings that are so formidable they can threaten to stall the fuel in the line (this may also give a clue as to why a fuel line that is too large in diameter can be as harmful as one that is too small). This leads us to the area that is least understood.

When you have only one carburetor it should be easier to feed than two, right? Wrong, in an engine with a tunnel-ram layout, both the needle and seat area and the float bowl capacity have doubled! Whereas the single four-barrel car that is most prevalent today, has a much harder task in keeping the fuel bowls full! A 700-HP tunnel-ram engine needs 350-lbs of fuel per hour which equates to a little over 85-lbs per float bowl. A 700-HP engine running a single four-barrel (not so uncommon these days) needs 175-lbs per float bowl, compared to a 1200-HP Pro Stock engine with demands of 600-lbs max, 150-lbs per bowl.

So what happens if fuel delivery is weak? Your engine may not miss or "burn-up" parts. It may just not perform to expectations. The new camshaft, racing-carburetor, or flowed-heads that didn't pick-you-up may have overstressed an already taxed fuel delivery system. Carburetors cannot disperse the optimum air/fuel mixture unless the fuel system has the ability to maintain correct float bowl levels. Fuel levels that are two low may not cause the motor to miss or "burn" a piston, but they will reduce fuel flow and performance will suffer. It is not uncommon after upgrading a fuel system with a single four-barrel carburetor to pick up 1- to 4-tenths of a second. In extreme cases, E.T.s have been known to decrease by as much as 1 second!

Can a fuel system that is too large hurt performance? No, it assures your combination will reach its full potential: the needles and seats will shut when the float bowls are full. Conversely, if your fuel system is marginal, fluctuations in battery voltage will cause fuel flow changes from run-to-run which affects the float levels in the carburetors and out-the-window goes your consistency! So how do you know if your volume is adequate?

Test your fuel system by obtaining a 1-gallon gas-can (do not use a moulded-plactic gas container, or marked super-jug, or antifreeze-jug as you will not get accurate readings). Open up the top of the tin-can and insert the two or four carburetor fuel lines from your regulator, switch on the system and carefully measure the time it takes to fill it. High 10-second cars will need to pump 1-gallon in 25-seconds or less. A 9-second car should fill the can in 20-seconds or less, 15-seconds is all it takes for an 8-second car and under 12-seconds for 7-second vehicles. Important Note: It's essential to observe two strict rules during the test. One, keep a fire extinguisher handy and two, do not carry-out the test by yourself.


1/4 Mile E.T. Time to fill a
1-Gallon Gas Can
7 sec under 12 seconds
8 sec 15 seconds
9 sec 20 seconds
10 sec 25 seconds
11 sec 30 seconds
12 sec 35 seconds


How do you know you're getting all of the performance from your car? Perform the gas-can test even if your car is running well - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain: including the prospects of improving your E.T. and gaining increased consistency.

When your car isn't performing, always carry out the gas-can test first - it's one of the least-expensive diagnostic aids you'll encounter. Keep in mind that valve springs, ignitions systems, torque converters, even engines have been changed, when all the time the fuel system was at fault.

So, my car has failed the test - now what do I do? Call us at BG Fuel Systems: we have the correct fuel pumps, regulators and plumbing for your particular H.P. level. Rely on The BG Powerfuel Advantage to help put you in the winners circle.
 
the fuel pump if in good shape should be plenty for it to run faster then it did. we have gone low 8's @ 145mph 1 one blue pump and the regulator that comes with it.

I would check to make sure your carb is getting full open when peddal is put to the floor.
 
The carb is too small for a maximum effort , but should certainly get that car into the low 12's.
Take a peek at which stock eliminator cars are restricted to an 830 cfm carb and where they E.T.
Apples to bananas comparison , but it makes the point.
You have other problems.
If you have a tiny air cleaner , I would take that off for a pass and see what you think.
I bet you have a surprise coming.
 
OK. I'm sticking by my first post. That carb, if it's in proper working condition, correctly jetted, and tuned should not have a problem on that engine.

You are barking up the wrong tree thinking about a carb replacement at this point.
TOTALLY AGREE!!! Yes, you have room for improvement perhaps by adding more cfm's, however, mid 14's and 94 mph??????????? You have a SERIOUS issue in that car, and you are not going to drop 3 seconds by going from 830 cfm's to 1000 cfm's. As mentioned in another post, perhaps your linkage is only allowing the carb to come part way open. I've seen 600 cfm carbs get into the 12's. If your engine was pulling all 830 cfm's that carb has to offer, you certainly would NOT be in the mid 14's.
 
Here's a oldie,but goodie: Have you visually verified, ACTUAL FULL THROTTLE mechanically? Are all 4 barrels actually opening up,when controlled by the gas pedal? It's free,usually a first step check,on something like this.
 
Car should be a lot quicker than that EVEN WITH a 2bbl. Hell I've seen a 318 poly with a big bore 2bbl click of thirteen oh's
 
Check that carb to make sure you are getting WOT(easy and cheap to check)
 
I really appreciate all the suggestions and constructive criticisms from everyone who has replied to this thread.

It's quite obvious that I've got SOMETHING, and maybe multiple somethings holding this car down.

It's back to square one, and once I get off this streak of working mids, I'm going to spend some time in the garage and use every lead I've gotten from this thread. Thanks folks!
 
You didn't say what cam it has, but even if it is comparable to the 472 crate Hemi cam, it should be an easy 11 second combination. I would sort out what you have first.
 
-
Back
Top