e85 or stay with pump gas

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o1heavy

o1heavy

1974 dart sport
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looking for a decent reason to go with e85
Anyone have experience with switching to e85 , mine is or at least should ok with pump gas. 10.5 to 1 with iron heads (408)
Thanks guys
 
How much street driving and any long trips? E85 may be easy to come by where you live but what if your an hour away?
 
if your running any sort of fuel injection and the car will sit for long periods of time e85 can gum up the injectors. If you put boost in the picture i say definitely go e85, if not id say its a toss up for me.
 
o1heavy said:
looking for a decent reason to go with e85
Anyone have experience with switching to e85 , mine is or at least should ok with pump gas. 10.5 to 1 with iron heads (408)
Thanks guys
Click to expand...

I like it for my car. Converting it is not too bad, depending on what you have to begin with.
  • You need a fuel pump that can handle ~30% more fuel (I used a Holley black pump)
  • Get rid of any paper fuel filter (I switched to a 40 micron steel mesh)
  • Possibly larger fuel line depending on your setup (mine is 1/2 inch from cell to carb)
  • Convert the carb or buy an e85 carb (I got a kit from Rob Mix (ebay) and converted it myself).
That is all you "need", but I also would suggest getting a wideband and installing it in the exhaust to help you tune it (I got one through Summit for ~ $150 for the gauge and O2 sensor). e85 burns so clean that it is very difficult to read the plugs.

Reasons for doing it.
  1. My car runs much cooler, so it is easier to hot lap at the track.
  2. Car is more consistent at the track.
  3. If I recall correctly, it was a little more than 2 tenths quicker when I switched.
  4. Much cheaper than race gas.
Reasons for not:
  1. Harder to cold start if the temp is <45°F (I don't care because my car only goes out on nice days).
  2. Takes a little more maintenance (draining the fuel system in the winter for example).
  3. If you don't drive the car at least once a month it may get fussy (mine likes to have the little bullet shaped thingy under the squirters get stuck if it sits too long, but no biggie).
  4. If you drive far away from home it might be harder to find e85...but around my house it is plentiful.
 
The only thing that I have at the moment is the carb (950 ultra hp)
I have to put together the fuel and it's getting close enough to where I need to make a decision
I like cooler part and a little concerned about the tuning
 
You don't want it.

If you are N/A and driving on the street, it's a waste.
-it runs cooler because you are putting more fuel through the system, so that cooling comes with reduced MPG
-higher chance of contaminated fuel unless you are running it often, and keeping the tank fully topped off.
-higher chance of contaminated fuel since it sits in tanks much much longer at the gas station since it's not as popular.

I have two below ground MOGAS tanks where I work. For years the components have been basically rust free. With the military now using E10 for all our MOGAS, the rate of deterioration is outright FRIGHTENING. It's not even regular rust, it looks like the old black firework snakes, but made out of rust. It's a puffy rusty slag that is growing on everything around the probe well.
I would pass on it. If you are wanting a cooler engine and better MPG, I'd give FiTech a look.
 
Flyfish, did you change boosters in your carb when you did the conversion? All the E85 conversion guys say that needs to be done when converting.
 
JoeSBP said:
You don't want it.

If you are N/A and driving on the street, it's a waste.
-it runs cooler because you are putting more fuel through the system, so that cooling comes with reduced MPG The cooling effect comes from the ethanol (EtOH), not from using more fuel. Yes you use ~30% more fuel due to the lower heat energy of the EtOH.... but due to the stoichiometry of the combustion reaction, more fuel is able to be consumed per unit of air; thus, the combination of cooling + being able to burn more fuel = the potential for making more power if tuned properly.
-higher chance of contaminated fuel unless you are running it often, and keeping the tank fully topped off. This comment doesn't really explain what it happening the way it is written...what I think you were trying to say was.....the ethanol is hydroscopic, so it can absorb water out of the air. If the fuel is left sitting exposed to open air too long it will
deteriorate.
-higher chance of contaminated fuel since it sits in tanks much much longer at the gas station since it's not as popular. Possibly, but they adjust the alcohol/gasoline ratio the for the season...more gas in the winter, less in the summer. I always test my e85 due to these variations. I have seen as high as 90% EtOH, and as low as 75% EtOH.

I have two below ground MOGAS tanks where I work. For years the components have been basically rust free. With the military now using E10 for all our MOGAS, the rate of deterioration is outright FRIGHTENING. It's not even regular rust, it looks like the old black firework snakes, but made out of rust. It's a puffy rusty slag that is growing on everything around the probe well.
I would pass on it. If you are wanting a cooler engine and better MPG, I'd give FiTech a look.
Click to expand...
No offence meant by this, but just to mitigate any misinformation, I added my response in the quote above.
 
gtsdude said:
Flyfish, did you change boosters in your carb when you did the conversion? All the E85 conversion guys say that needs to be done when converting.
Click to expand...
I'm the guy that likes to run with scissors...so nope, I left mine as is while I experimented. After looking at the data from my air fuel meter, I believe "they" are correct about the boosters for the most part; however, my AF readings were good enough with the jetting I use.
 
If you are N/A and driving on the street, it's a waste.
-it runs cooler because you are putting more fuel through the system, so that cooling comes with reduced MPG The cooling effect comes from the ethanol (EtOH), not from using more fuel. Yes you use ~30% more fuel due to the lower heat energy of the EtOH.... but due to the stoichiometry of the combustion reaction, more fuel is able to be consumed per unit of air; thus, the combination of cooling + being able to burn more fuel = the potential for making more power if tuned properly.
The cooling effect comes from the increase in latent heat of vaporization attained with the alcohol, yes, but what happens if you DO NOT increase the fuel volume by that 30%? Yes you (can) make more power with E85, yes you (can) run cooler, but it comes with a drastic reduction in MPG.


-higher chance of contaminated fuel unless you are running it often, and keeping the tank fully topped off. This comment doesn't really explain what it happening the way it is written...what I think you were trying to say was.....the ethanol is hydroscopic, so it can absorb water out of the air. If the fuel is left sitting exposed to open air too long it will
deteriorate.
Ethanol blended fuels are hygroscopic, they will aggressivley absorb moisture out of the air. The more air in your fuel tank, the moisture they will absorb. The more moisture it absorbs, the more moisture it carries through your fuel system. The ethanol in the blend, will absorb far more water than the gasoline can, and phase shift occurs as the gasoline and ethanol actually separate in your fuel tank. It's not a good thing, and there are no additives you can put in to prevent it. All you can do is rotate the fuel often and alwasy keep the tank topped off. This won't be as much of an issue in a daily driver that tops off often, but can cause havok on a weekend cruiser or similar like boats, snow machines, motorcycles, chainsaws, etc.

-higher chance of contaminated fuel since it sits in tanks much much longer at the gas station since it's not as popular.
Possibly, but they adjust the alcohol/gasoline ratio the for the season...more gas in the winter, less in the summer. I always test my e85 due to these variations. I have seen as high as 90% EtOH, and as low as 75% EtOH.
The E85 is not being used as often. Gas stations are not turning it over regularly like E10. So a fuel that has a much shorter shelf life, a high tendancy for contamination as it absorbs water vs separating from it, and is used less often...not what I want to put in my car.

The only folks I would steer toward E85 are those running alot of boost, trying to make max power, with everything second, and access to good tuning resources.
If you are trying to cruise, and just have a little fun now and again, E85 is not the direction I would go.
No offense taken with your response, this is just my opinion, and it's good for the OP to see them all.

and for your viewing pleasure, microbial influenced corrosion on my tank thanks to E10





grate.JPG
 
JoeSBP said:
If you are N/A and driving on the street, it's a waste.
-it runs cooler because you are putting more fuel through the system, so that cooling comes with reduced MPG The cooling effect comes from the ethanol (EtOH), not from using more fuel. Yes you use ~30% more fuel due to the lower heat energy of the EtOH.... but due to the stoichiometry of the combustion reaction, more fuel is able to be consumed per unit of air; thus, the combination of cooling + being able to burn more fuel = the potential for making more power if tuned properly.
The cooling effect comes from the increase in latent heat of vaporization attained with the alcohol, yes, but what happens if you DO NOT increase the fuel volume by that 30%? Yes you (can) make more power with E85, yes you (can) run cooler, but it comes with a drastic reduction in MPG.


-higher chance of contaminated fuel unless you are running it often, and keeping the tank fully topped off. This comment doesn't really explain what it happening the way it is written...what I think you were trying to say was.....the ethanol is hydroscopic, so it can absorb water out of the air. If the fuel is left sitting exposed to open air too long it will
deteriorate.
Ethanol blended fuels are hygroscopic, they will aggressivley absorb moisture out of the air. The more air in your fuel tank, the moisture they will absorb. The more moisture it absorbs, the more moisture it carries through your fuel system. The ethanol in the blend, will absorb far more water than the gasoline can, and phase shift occurs as the gasoline and ethanol actually separate in your fuel tank. It's not a good thing, and there are no additives you can put in to prevent it. All you can do is rotate the fuel often and alwasy keep the tank topped off. This won't be as much of an issue in a daily driver that tops off often, but can cause havok on a weekend cruiser or similar like boats, snow machines, motorcycles, chainsaws, etc.

-higher chance of contaminated fuel since it sits in tanks much much longer at the gas station since it's not as popular.
Possibly, but they adjust the alcohol/gasoline ratio the for the season...more gas in the winter, less in the summer. I always test my e85 due to these variations. I have seen as high as 90% EtOH, and as low as 75% EtOH.
The E85 is not being used as often. Gas stations are not turning it over regularly like E10. So a fuel that has a much shorter shelf life, a high tendancy for contamination as it absorbs water vs separating from it, and is used less often...not what I want to put in my car.

The only folks I would steer toward E85 are those running alot of boost, trying to make max power, with everything second, and access to good tuning resources.
If you are trying to cruise, and just have a little fun now and again, E85 is not the direction I would go.
No offense taken with your response, this is just my opinion, and it's good for the OP to see them all.

and for your viewing pleasure, microbial influenced corrosion on my tank thanks to E10





View attachment 1715078384
Click to expand...
Well put, and I agree with what you are saying. One point to clarify from the top:
"The cooling effect comes from the increase in latent heat of vaporization attained with the alcohol, yes, but what happens if you DO NOT increase the fuel volume by that 30%? Yes you (can) make more power with E85, yes you (can) run cooler, but it comes with a drastic reduction in MPG."

If you don't increase the fuel volume by ~ 30% you will not only make less power, but you will also lean out your motor and hurt it. Yes, if run properly it will get much less MPG, but at a much lower cost you usually come out ahead...if you were running 87 octane pump gas in the first place then it is probably a wash...if you were running premium or race gas you will save $ at the pump.

Also good to point out, if you don't run your car often, e85 is not a good choice. If you are a racer, that races often, then it is a good option. This is why I like it...I race a lot.

By the way...what type of metal was underneath that nasty black corrosion, cast iron, steel? Just curious what might be going on there. :)


 
flyfish said:
I'm the guy that likes to run with scissors...so nope, I left mine as is while I experimented. After looking at the data from my air fuel meter, I believe "they" are correct about the boosters for the most part; however, my AF readings were good enough with the jetting I use.
Click to expand...

I've heard of a few guys getting away with it, I was thinking of trying it myself, good to know others have had success.
 
I'm no E85 fan. But it's difficult to blow up an engine by being too lean on E85. We took our 500" wedge with a single Dominator to another dyno before we got our own. The first pull on E85 it made 680 HP.

Could not believe my eyes. "What a piece of ****!" I said in a huff.

The dyno operator looked at me funny, "You just made 680 HP! Why are you calling it a piece of ****?"

"Because it should be making 800 HP," says I.

"Well you aren't going to tune another 120 HP out of it," he responds.

We needed about 8:1 Air Fuel Ratio. So the day went like this, as we forced more and more fuel through the carburetor.......

12:1 AFR, 680 HP, exhaust gas temperatures 800-900 degrees.
11:1 AFR, 760 HP, exhaust gas temperatures 1,000 degrees.
10:1 AFR, 845 HP, exhaust gas temperatures 1,100 degrees.
The intake manifold has ice forming on it.....and we're out of dyno time.

So I guess the dyno operator was correct. We didn't tune another 120 HP out of it.......We got another 165 HP out of it that day.
 
flyfish said:
If you don't increase the fuel volume by ~ 30% you will not only make less power, but you will also lean out your motor and hurt it. Yes, if run properly it will get much less MPG, but at a much lower cost you usually come out ahead...if you were running 87 octane pump gas in the first place then it is probably a wash...if you were running premium or race gas you will save $ at the pump.

By the way...what type of metal was underneath that nasty black corrosion, cast iron, steel? Just curious what might be going on there. :)
Click to expand...

I have seen many write ups where folks take the "Pepsi Challenge" on Flex fuel vehicles with E10 vs E85. The numbers I have seen thrown around is that E85, gallon for gallon, produces 25% less energy than E10, while costing 10% less (than regular) so you don't win with E85. But if you are running high compression or a boosted engine, I doubt hypermiling is in your 5-10yr plan in the first place :thumbsup:

IQ52 said:
I'm no E85 fan. But it's difficult to blow up an engine by being too lean on E85.
Click to expand...

you are making big numbers, very impressive, but detonation is detonation, doesn't matter if it's from E10 or E85, you can easily hurt the motor. Kind of like the old saying "Friendly Fire isn't"
 
oh the grate is cast iron. our fuel guy states it's from HUMbugs
 
o1heavy said:
It's pretty much at every fuel station
Click to expand...
I'm just commenting on my red X i put on your post. In the hole state of Wy, there is only two gas station that sell E85.
This is the main reason that E85 is not in my future.
 
flyfish said:
I like it for my car. Converting it is not too bad, depending on what you have to begin with.
  • You need a fuel pump that can handle ~30% more fuel (I used a Holley black pump)
  • Get rid of any paper fuel filter (I switched to a 40 micron steel mesh)
  • Possibly larger fuel line depending on your setup (mine is 1/2 inch from cell to carb)
  • Convert the carb or buy an e85 carb (I got a kit from Rob Mix (ebay) and converted it myself).
That is all you "need", but I also would suggest getting a wideband and installing it in the exhaust to help you tune it (I got one through Summit for ~ $150 for the gauge and O2 sensor). e85 burns so clean that it is very difficult to read the plugs.

Reasons for doing it.
  1. My car runs much cooler, so it is easier to hot lap at the track.
  2. Car is more consistent at the track.
  3. If I recall correctly, it was a little more than 2 tenths quicker when I switched.
  4. Much cheaper than race gas.
Reasons for not:
  1. Harder to cold start if the temp is <45°F (I don't care because my car only goes out on nice days).
  2. Takes a little more maintenance (draining the fuel system in the winter for example).
  3. If you don't drive the car at least once a month it may get fussy (mine likes to have the little bullet shaped thingy under the squirters get stuck if it sits too long, but no biggie).
  4. If you drive far away from home it might be harder to find e85...but around my house it is plentiful.
Click to expand...
U will burn more of it than gas, how big is ur tank ?
 
My engine builder asked if I wanted to "Go there" on my last engine. I declined. He did make a good argument for it. I was just not at that level. The car gets used a bit. I'm not sure I'd say often though. It is also aluminum headed at 10-1.

When I get to the heavy hitter for the Duster, I'm seriously considering it. Fully ported heads, cam duration in excess of [email protected], high stall, low gear, low car weight, etc....

Some of the things I like about it you can use more compression with the higher octane rating. More squeeze is more power. This would help offset the lower BTU return on the fuel.

At 10.5-1 ratio, you could use the fuel but I believe you could use another 2pts. of compression to really enjoy it. As well as get the most out of it. A helpful edge on the lower BTU fuel.

On the cooler running side of it, that's a win win in the heat of the day. Iceing can be an issue? I don't know how much. I don't remember hearing a lot of complaining about it. But a cooler running engine.....
 
JoeSBP said:
I have seen many write ups where folks take the "Pepsi Challenge" on Flex fuel vehicles with E10 vs E85. The numbers I have seen thrown around is that E85, gallon for gallon, produces 25% less energy than E10, while costing 10% less (than regular) so you don't win with E85. But if you are running high compression or a boosted engine, I doubt hypermiling is in your 5-10yr plan in the first place :thumbsup:



you are making big numbers, very impressive, but detonation is detonation, doesn't matter if it's from E10 or E85, you can easily hurt the motor. Kind of like the old saying "Friendly Fire isn't"
Click to expand...
So then you have personal experience with tuning E85? I wasn't experiencing detonation...........which could easily hurt an engine. I was experiencing a lack of horsepower due to a lean fuel condition.

Here is the car running E85 on the chassis dyno at the Dyno Max Power to the Wheels finals in Springfield, Mo. (2008)

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9QAGjFVs3IAOsksnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWc0dGJtBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMQ--?p=laroy+engines&vid=36150a004689b598f6228ef2e2b0ac8a&l=00:40&turl=http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=WN.%2flbK%2baG13uNAqK%2b6M0lUzw&pid=15.1&rurl=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbZ8jGq6x1c&tit=Jim+LaRoy+Pulls+696.48+horsepower&c=0&sigr=11bh82i34&sigt=111jb4obj&sigi=1258mchok&age=1221936213&fr2=p:s,v:v&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozilla&tt=b
 
famous bob said:
U will burn more of it than gas, how big is ur tank ?
Click to expand...
I have "12 gallon" fuel cell.....that only holds 10 gallons :realcrazy:. Each pass at the strip uses close to a gallon (warm up, pull to the lanes, run and return to the pits). I usually bring an extra 5 gallons with me. I really should get a bigger tank.
 
LOL! Naaaa, just adds weight! LMAO!
 
I'm just saying lean is lean. Maybe you weren't lean enough to detonate.
When going to E85, the main hurdle is to get enough fuel into the engine.
And no I don't have personal experience with tuning E85. I just put some thought and research into it when I went with FiTech since it's as "simple" as telling the system I have 30% more displacement.
 
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