early a traction bars

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Not a can of worms......just a "warm discussion" that ended getting some very good info out there and the truth straight from Calvert.....I just wish I would have asked them sooner and not have had the smart *** tone.....but I am a smart *** so I guess it's natural. That's the goal of these boards is to have discussions and get out accurate info and share whaty works with others.
 
That is the cheapest for the time being......I think Just Suspensions carries one that is threaded with a jamb nut......they allows a much finer and better air-gap adjustment and the pin type that MP sells. I know I had to modify my MP one to get the gap right.
 
Duster and Ace, thanks for all the posts and info. Hopefully with time and experience I will be hashing out the specifics for a "technically challenged mopar person" somewhere on this site.

I have seen the threaded type and they definately look better as far as adjustability compared to the multiple hole type.

thanks again.
 
Wow, that was intense but interesting just the same. So, dartman, the end all be all is go with the snubber for now and see how she reacts and don't waist your money on the universal lakewood traction bars. There are better ways to skin the traction cat nowadays. :burnout:

And Duster, I'm impressed by your quick apology, shows the kind of person you are :thumbup:
 
Dusterb318 said:
Well here is the answer from the horses mouth.....and I have some crow to eat:

"No, they can be used with the SS Spring, We just see better results with a mono leaf spring due to a 50lb. weight saving and better weight transfer."

Travis @ Calvert Racing

I will be the first to admit I was wrong and I apologize.......I am an *** but not a big enough one to hide......I still do have a problem with you saying you have something that you don't......

The better weight transfer is because when you launch a car, dependent on traction of course, the weight of the vehicle is transfered to the rear suspension. Fact. By having a mono spring like the Caltrac's system recomends, the rear suspension is "softer" (and can be because the bars actually prevent the axle from trying to "wind up" on the springs, the bars are actually taking the place of the extra leaves in the SS pack, basicly a four link system using the leaf springs as one set of the links) and will allow the car to sit back harder than it would with a SS spring pack, which by design is made to prevent the car from squating onto the rear suspension, ie they push the tires down into the pavement, "so to speak", at launch (actually they raise the car rear up which, when all the weight is being shifted to the rear, is forcing the tires into the ground).

I have said it before and I will say it again, if your going to be involved in any form of racing get the book "How To Make Your Car Handle" by Fred Puhn, it is an excellent book that will help most anyone understand the basics of suspensions and the pro's and cons of many different suspension idea's and designs, it is slightly dated but gives the all important basics that the average joe dosn't know about and may have not even realized.

As far as Ace and his "homade cal-tracs wanna be's", you obviously didn't understand the design either or you wouldn't be running around with a full leaf pack and homade anti wrap bars that although they may "work" for you, they do not work as well or as the original designer designed the original system too. You will find that if you spent a few bucks to purchase the single heavier mono spring or did a little research and found a single leaf that will do the job and fit the same space (oh wait, someone already did that, Calvert Racing did it) you would find your car would react much better and perform better. Not knocking your efforts just stating the fact that it dosn't and can't perform as well by the very nature of how you have it set up.

Mind you before getting offended at my statement, realize that I personaly wouldn't waste the money for any of that, I run EHD leaf springs and for racing I install my own homade pinion snubber. I have ZERO traction or handling issues at the track. Total cost to me was uhmmmm, an hour of my time to build my snubber and 15 minutes a race day for install and removal (I drive my car to the trac when I go racing, no trailer queens for me).
 
krabysniper said:
The better weight transfer is because when you launch a car, dependent on traction of course, the weight of the vehicle is transfered to the rear suspension. Fact. By having a mono spring like the Caltrac's system recomends, the rear suspension is "softer" (and can be because the bars actually prevent the axle from trying to "wind up" on the springs, the bars are actually taking the place of the extra leaves in the SS pack, basicly a four link system using the leaf springs as one set of the links) and will allow the car to sit back harder than it would with a SS spring pack, which by design is made to prevent the car from squating onto the rear suspension, ie they push the tires down into the pavement, "so to speak", at launch (actually they raise the car rear up which, when all the weight is being shifted to the rear, is forcing the tires into the ground).

I have said it before and I will say it again, if your going to be involved in any form of racing get the book "How To Make Your Car Handle" by Fred Puhn, it is an excellent book that will help most anyone understand the basics of suspensions and the pro's and cons of many different suspension idea's and designs, it is slightly dated but gives the all important basics that the average joe dosn't know about and may have not even realized.

As far as Ace and his "homade cal-tracs wanna be's", you obviously didn't understand the design either or you wouldn't be running around with a full leaf pack and homade anti wrap bars that although they may "work" for you, they do not work as well or as the original designer designed the original system too. You will find that if you spent a few bucks to purchase the single heavier mono spring or did a little research and found a single leaf that will do the job and fit the same space (oh wait, someone already did that, Calvert Racing did it) you would find your car would react much better and perform better. Not knocking your efforts just stating the fact that it dosn't and can't perform as well by the very nature of how you have it set up.

Mind you before getting offended at my statement, realize that I personaly wouldn't waste the money for any of that, I run EHD leaf springs and for racing I install my own homade pinion snubber. I have ZERO traction or handling issues at the track. Total cost to me was uhmmmm, an hour of my time to build my snubber and 15 minutes a race day for install and removal (I drive my car to the trac when I go racing, no trailer queens for me).
What kind of ET's are you running? Whats your 60ft?
 
I can drive my car to the track too......but with the times I am running I can break very easy and I don't feel like waiting for someone to pick me up. Just because I trailer it to the track doesn't mean it's a trailer queen......you take your chances being an iron man and driving to the track......but once you start actually putting some power to the ground and running slicks you'll change your tune about driving to the track. Also Calvert has no problem with using full pack leaf spring with their system....yes they work better with the mono's because of the reduced weight and as you stated the softer rate but I run mine with the factory springs......yes next summer I hope to go to mono-leafs to help transfer weight but they will work with stock spring packs.
 
As usual, Kraby's the expert. Doesn't even use SS springs or Caltracs, but he sure knows all about them.

:notworth:
 
Ace said:
As usual, Kraby's the expert. Doesn't even use SS springs or Caltracs, but he sure knows all about them.

:notworth:
So based upon your "moronic" logic, nobody in this world knows anything about anything they do not "OWN" or use, eh??? Man your failure to comprehend reality really scares me when I realize there are more like you out there in the military, supposedly "protecting our country" (hopefully it is just air force peons though, as I do not believe someone who uses logic simialar to yourself would ever have made it in any of the other armed services.)

No, I don't own CalTracs or SS springs. Does that mean I do not know anything about suspension engineering?? How about chasis engineering??? I don't own a wire feed welder nor T.I.G. machine, so I must not have been certified or know anything in over 3 dozen different types of welding process??? I don't own a college, so I must not know anything about my engineering education, eh???

I wasn't trying to disrespect you or give you crap that you attempted to build something yourself rather than buy it, on the contrary I think it is excellent that you did, I do the same myself when I can if I can. I merely pointed out you COULD do better and would recieve better results. Maybe you will eventually. But since you insisted on being a jerk, again.......I certainly do not have a signature line that states I have something on my car that I really don't, but you sure seem to want the world to think you do eh, mister "Custom Caltrac System" as if that implies that what you fabbed, and use on your car, rates on the quality and engineering level of John Calverts System.

I build (hobby these days)/have built race cars for several years and grew up around them (roundy rounds and drag cars), I know a very fair share about them, I was a chasis builder for the most part, but was also involved in many different aspects of building a race car from the ground up, so actually, yes, I am a bit of a knowledgable person on the subject. I have also gone to school for engineering, and I was an AME in the Navy, worked on F-14's, F4's, and my mainstay, the A6 Intruder.

Use your head for more than growing hair Ace, your level of intelligence is showing again.


MikeDevore, I know where your going with that, and no I do not produce 550+ horsepower with my Dart's 360, so no I wont neccassarily suffer the same traction problems as say a 426 hemi'd Dart, but I do know they made it work with leaf springs and pinion snubbers behind four speeds and big blocks, back in the 70's and I know it still works, even for high horsepower cars, today. Solid engineering is lasting. I cannot find my slips at the moment so I honestly cannot even begin to tell you what my 60's were this summer and I only raced it the one day 1/8th mile this year since I got it together... ie untuned and is way more capable than what it has run, but when I do scrounge them up I will post what it was. I do make plenty enough horsepower to roast the tires off at will (posi, 26.5"t x 8"w tires, 3.23 rear gears, 3750lbs with driver, figured horsepower to be in the 275-325 range to the rear wheels), and as I stated, I had no traction problems at the last event I attended, even though NOBODY else could get their cars to hook up at all no matter how much or how little horsepower they had, although more than 600 horse and all you were was a JohnForce wanna be (was a race held on a runway at an airport, if any of you know anything about runways you know why you get zero traction on them.)


Dusterb318, the statement about trailer queens was not meant as a diss, just a statement that I like to be the guy who shows up driving his car to the track, (so few actually do) and be able to say that my street car is capable. It is a car after all right? Not just a weekend toy that has to be hauled (read $$$) to and from events. I am aware of the consequences if something breaks, thats why I have good friends with trailers as a back up plan. Have not had a need, yet. As far as when and if I make 550+ horsepower or what not and that causing me to need better susspension, naw it won't happen. I intend to keep my Dart as a real world daily driver for in the summer. I like to be able to load up the kids and wife and go to the park or the local DQ, and thats just not practical in something of the nature that you have. Although it would be fun to have another "all out" race car, I have far to much better to invest my cash in and I get to play with all of my buddies cars when I want my real "drag racing adrenaline fix" at no expense to me. Cars like the Fox body stang a close friend of mine and I built in my garage, runs low 10's and is capable of 9's and certified to 7.50's
1292227-4.jpg

1292232-6.jpg

1292235-9.jpg


or my other buddies blown vette
775512-vette%20and%20road%20runner.jpg
 
I believe mine are probably stronger than Calvert's. Actually, I'm sure they are. :thumbup:

Those look like pretty fast cars there. Too bad the only association you ever had with them was in your dreams. :tool:
 
This used to be my thread, I just asked a question about traction bars and look what happens. It kinda makes me feel reserved to ask questions on this site.( I will though) I know that there are many different ways to fix a problem. You give two different groups a problem and they will both fix the problem, maybe not in the same way but, It will get fixed.
I work for a company that deals with this on a daily basis. (engineers vs techs). The key to a sucsessful team is LISTENING and having respect for everyones comments, No matter how you feel about it.

I would never tell another member of this site that their ideas or thought process is "moronic". Also I would not "call out" another member if I thought they were posting less than true posts. I would maybe PM that member and hash it out on the side, no reason to drag the whole site into a personal arguement.


O.K. I'm done venting.....Early A's rule!
 
My apoligies to you 63dartman, I certainly didnt mean for it to be a hijack. Like I said, try an adjustable pinion snubber first, I think you will be impressed. If it isn't enough, you can always mod to a real CalTrac setup if you need.


As far as Ace goes. Whateva, but take note of the Mopar sign in the background behind that Vette when viewing this pic of my dart in my garage today and one from in front of the garage earlier this summer. Which if you note the background, corrosponds with the pics of the Stang.
1548982-dartingarage.jpg

1548979-Dartinfrontofgarage06.jpg


If those are just dreams, then I feel sorry for you because my dreams are far more real than your reality. :sad3:
 
Dusterb318 said:
Well here is the answer from the horses mouth.....and I have some crow to eat:

"No, they can be used with the SS Spring, We just see better results with a mono leaf spring due to a 50lb. weight saving and better weight transfer."

Travis @ Calvert Racing

I will be the first to admit I was wrong and I apologize.......I am an *** but not a big enough one to hide......I still do have a problem with you saying you have something that you don't......



I just got a very similiar EMail from Travis last night:

You can run the Cal-Tracs with SS Springs. The main thing we recommend doing is clamping the rear halves of the leafs together. We want to see two clamps on each rear segment. This will help reduce some of the rear body separation. We also highly recommend using a Rancho RS9000 truck shock on the rear to also help in reducing body separation. We do offer mono leaf spring to fit your car in which we can give you any ride height you want. Stock height or 1" above or 1" below stock. The mono leafs are also half the weight of the SS Springs. I'll drop a parts brochure in the mail for you.

The reason I got this, is my SS springs are a little different setup than most people have because they were set up by Bob Lambeck at BLE. I asked a more technical question which prompted the above response. I've decided to go with the mono spring and caltracs in January.

Its just my guess, but, I believe the clamping of rear halves prevent the lifting and make them "look" like a solid piece. I've heard of people clamping the front halves and using a snubber w/SS springs to gain better traction, I have no experience with this method, and do not know if this really works.

Before I order my mono springs, I need to figure out how much higher SS spring raise a '72 Duster. Then decide If I want 1" lower, stock, or 1" higher ride of the mono spring. I'd perfer a little lower than the stance that the SS springs give it now. Does anyone here know the average lift of SS springs on a Duster?
 
It'll raise around 2 or 3 inches. What I did was flip the front hangars, which brought it back down to around stock. I'm using truck shocks and pretty much demonstrate what you are describing on hard launch. The wheels just turn, no noticeable body movement up or down at all. It hooks hard if there's traction. I put one clamp and will add another to see if it does any better, tks...
 
Ace said:
It'll raise around 2 or 3 inches. What I did was flip the front hangars, which brought it back down to around stock. I'm using truck shocks and pretty much demonstrate what you are describing on hard launch. The wheels just turn, no noticeable body movement up or down at all. It hooks hard if there's traction. I put one clamp and will add another to see if it does any better, tks...

Thanks for the info on the SS springs raising 2 or 3 inches. I think I'll go with either stock or the 1 inch over stock. I have pretty extreme tire spin, I need to launch at around 3000rpm which is over 400 foot pounds of torque at that point. I'm hoping that with the MT's, frame connectors, and the Caltrac setup that it'll launch with out going up in smoke. Right now it gets loose during shifts at full power and isn't a lot of fun to drive.
 
SS springs do have an distinct advantage that often gets overlooked, which I've felt depending on what gears I have installed. The firmer, tighter arch on the passenger's side sits it about an inch higher on the right side. This compensates for launch torque in a different way. That torque also tends to roll the body to the right. People used to work that with air shocks pumped up higher on the pass side. SS springs solve the problem. I've noticed that when I have the open 3.23s in I cannot get the right rear to break loose unless I pull out by really yanking it up in a slow turn to the right. The driver's side will melt the tire all day long with no trouble at all.
 
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