Electric or not?
- Thread starter 67_Slimer
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Well if you're using parts that "might work" then that is a key problem right there. Just throwing parts at the situation is exactly why most people say electric fans aren't a good option, they're just buying **** and hoping it works. If you know the air flow requirements, use fans that meet those requirements, and use good relays and controllers you don't have to worry about parts that "might" work.
The biggest problem with electric fans has nothing to do with the fans themselves. It's that people think they're a cheap fix. They're not. To do it right you need to flow more CFM's than many off-the-shelf electric fans (even some really expensive aftermarket stuff), you need a good relay set up to handle the power the high CFM fans need, and you need a good controller. This shouldn't be surprising, that's what modern cars do when they design their cooling system around electric fans. They use fans that can put out enough airflow, they power them with a robust electric system and relays, and they control them with an ECU. If you follow that basic model you can have a better system than the factory mechanical set up.
My success is because I used proven parts that meet the cooling requirements of my car - fans that move enough CFM, a high output alternator with relays to handle the draw from the fans, and a good fan controller. Regardless, other people failing doesn't mean that electric fans are't a good choice, it just means they did it wrong.
If a thousand people buy cheap fans that don't put out enough air flow, run them off an anemic factory electric system barely capable of putting out what a proper electric fan will draw by itself, and control them with a toggle switch it just means they're morons, not that electric fans are bad.
Lol. Ok. Well that's a pretty big generalization, there are dozens of threads on here with people using mismatched factory pulleys, water pumps, and having various issues with stock systems. Hell those are just the ones I've commented in.
Even if there are more threads about people that have modified their cooling systems, well, that shouldn't be that surprising. The factory system is well engineered for what it was supposed to do, it can usually handle quite a bit of extra horsepower and still work decently as long as it's well cared for. But a lot of engineering went into the stock system, and that's more important than the fact that it uses a mechanical fan.
But your argument isn't a valid one, that'd be like saying there's more threads about Holley carburetor issues on here than Carter BBD's. Doesn't mean that Holley's aren't a better carburetor, just that more people on here use Holley's and/or can't tune them.
A pretty good example of the things you need to do to get an electric fan system to work well on these cars. Do you know the CFM rating on those fans?
Room for improvement as always, I personally prefer OE electric fans that have a built in shroud to get away from the cookie sheet flat plate that can restrict air flow. Plus you generally know that they were extensively tested to last at least as long as the factory warranty, with aftermarket how much actual testing gets done is a crapshoot. There are better OE electric fans that cost substantially less than some of the aftermarket offerings out there. A better fan controller could also switch the fans separately.
As far as a 4 row, most 4 rows are too thick to run a mechanical fan with a viscous drive. Also, more rows isn't always better. With the constraints of these cars a decent 2-3 row radiator should be plenty sufficient, in aluminum or a more factory brass type construction.
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I used the Engineered Cooling Products (1963 - 1969 Mopar 22" Radiator - Dual HP Fans - Aluminum Shroud) which now retails for $747 but I spent less than that when I got it a few years ago. Still, it would have been cheaper to go with the stock cast iron pump and the existing 4-core radiator. But keep in mind that having an old radiator doesn't mean it doesn't need a re-core which is also quite expensive now. I got my 4-core "Desert Cooler" radiator in the mid 1970's for about $35 (a real steal at that time). The goal was to eliminate the WP but still cool the 340. It worked well with a $20 Flex-a-lite electric fan. The 340 at that time had a 318 cam but the 10.25:1 pistons. With careful tuning, I got 24 MPG on the highway and drove the car from Irvine to Tucson with 117°F temps and no cooling problems the fan only came on pulling hills. With gas prices having more than doubled since I got the car (25₵/gal in 1969) vs over 50₵/gal in 1976. history of gas prices in the 1970's - Bing
Unfortunately, prices for anything now are much higher than they were in the past making many choices impractical or unaffordable.
Bob
Unfortunately, prices for anything now are much higher than they were in the past making many choices impractical or unaffordable.
Bob
Wow! That’s bunch of money.
I run a ‘95-2000 Ford Contour fan set up (dual fan, dual speed) and a 26” KKS 3 core aluminum radiator. Current price on those is $200 for the radiator and $120 for the Dorman reproduction of the fans (620-104) which is what I run. The fans pull 3k CFM on the low speed and allegedly 5k CFM on high speed. I’ve only had the high speed come on a couple times in the last decade I’ve been running that set up and it was only when stuck in stop and go traffic in 110° weather.
I run that with a Dakota Digital fan controller, the current version is up to $175 but it includes a 70 amp relay. With the addition of another relay that controller handles the activation of both fans and the dual speed. It also allows independent programming of the on/off temperatures for both high and low speeds, as well as programming the after shut down run time for the fans. The new one (not mine) is bluetooth controllable as well, probably has a few more programming features. I think even with my alternator I’m probably in the same ballpark as just that radiator and fan set up.
I’m also running a 340, it’s at 9.8:1 but with a larger cam and ported iron heads putting out over 400 hp. Never had an issue with keeping it cool with the Contour fans and a cheap aluminum radiator. And that’s one of the big things about running electric fans, there’s some really fancy aftermarket stuff that costs a ton that doesn’t perform as well as a $120 OE reproduction.
Woody500
Well-Known Member
IIRC, if Fan Clutch is good, it should spin free(some lite drag) when Cold & when hot should be harder to turn, if not 'locked up-, then much more drag.
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Woody500
Well-Known Member
Please, more details on this, as I'm in Florida!
BT67Dart
Well-Known Member
Lots of good information on this thread. I had a 68 Barracuda with a high HP output 340 years ago for a streeter. Space issue pushed to an electric system which I was never fully happy with. It worked, but it was marginal at the worst of times in Florida on a hot day. Dual fan setup, relays, HO alternator, etc. Would rather have stuck with mechanical setup......just my opinion.....
67_Slimer
Real Hot Rods don't shift themselves.
I appreciate everyone's input. I think I'll keep it as I currently have it set up. I guess 190 on a hot 90 degree day isn't so bad after all.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
Clutch fans generally free wheel over 4k rpm, hot or cold, not like a fixed fan that'll blow a hurricane or toss a blade at rpm, - think over 50mph, or "missed shift".
Yeah it really isn’t, IIRC the coldest thermostat the factory ran on these cars was a 180°, with 185° and 190° thermostats available depending on the year and model. So 190° is literally a normal factory operating temp and at the low end of the range.
If your car can maintain 190° on a hot day for your typical use it’s doing great.
That would be the PT Cruiser that had a series of cascading cooling system failures over two months that Chrysler was never able to fix, resulting in a blown head gasket and irreparable engine failure at 67,000 miles... my shortest lived vehicle in over 50 years of car ownership...Lol. So your daily driver doesn't have an electric fan? Your PT cruiser certainly did
My 1988 Daytona lost the electric fan resulting in blown head gasket and the necessary replacement of the engine, but that was after 210,000 miles, so I won't complain about that...
Right. So in other words, there's absolutely no reason an electric fan (or fans) can't be used on these cars as long at you - 1. get a fan that moves enough CFM to properly cool the engine 2. supply it with enough power 3. Control its operation properly
How about utilizing the design that actual automotive engineers designed to be used with THESE engines. There is a reason that so many on this thread had bad experiences with electric fans... we are NOT (generally) automotive engineers.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
True, but one thing to keep in mind is the hp level the actual automotive engineers designed these stock systems to cool. Who on this site runs stock engines? Not saying a stock system won't work, but just something to consider.
You don't need to be an automotive engineer, you just have to actually put some thought and effort into it. You're gonna need 3k CFM or better, a fan relay capable of at least 60 amps and the alternator to back it up, and a controller. That's not engineering. All of that info is right here on the this forum.
If you just start by knowing how many CFM the factory mechanical fan will actually pull you'd be far better off than most folks that just pick either the cheapest or most expensive fan they can get their hands on, neither of which is likely to pull enough CFM.
Exactly. Everyone modifies everything about the engine and doesn't think twice about the engineering that went into making it the way that it was, but suddenly if someone wants to use an electric fan you need to be an engineer.
What's winning? Convincing everyone that only a mechanical fan will work? Well, that's just not true.
I'm not saying everyone should run an electric fan set up. Not at all. It's not right for every application and it DOES require modifying other aspects of your car so it's not really appropriate if your plan is to keep your car in a somewhat factory appearance.
But saying you can't do an equivalent or even a better job than a mechanical fan with an electric fan set up is just factually untrue. You just have to do it right, and commit to making all of the necessary modifications. You can't just slap a giant cam in a low compression 318 and expect miracles, and you can't just slap any electric fan out of the catalog on your car and expect it to work right. Both require planning and specific additional modifications to be successful.
67_Slimer
Real Hot Rods don't shift themselves.
I agree but also , what on my engine is "stock" Bored .030 over , higher compression , bigger cam , Different heads , headers , Intake , carb , the list goes on. If all those mods are made on the engine the engineers designed , I'm thinking it makes sense to upgrade the cooling system as well? Again , my electric fan is a backup for slow moving situations at shows or stoplights etc.
Because no one wins with you, it's always your way or no way. You are like the Energizer Bunny, you just keep going.
Can't even agree with someone else without you coming after me! We've been through this before over in suspension, I don't even open that thread any longer, looks like cooling is next.
Can't even agree with someone else without you coming after me! We've been through this before over in suspension, I don't even open that thread any longer, looks like cooling is next.
Well sorry, but if you agree with a guy that thinks that electric fans shouldn't be on a street car they you're as wrong as he is. I mean he literally has a daily with an electric fan, they're more than capable of doing the job if you bother to set them up properly. Which is completely supported by the fact that I've used my Duster, with nothin but electric fans, as daily driver for YEARS without issue even in 110° weather and stop and go traffic.
I honestly don't care if anyone runs a mechanical fan or an electric one, I seriously couldn't care less. Which is literally why I told the OP he should just lose his pusher fan and use the factory set up he has already, while also telling him what would be required to run a stand alone electric fan successfully. Neither of you actually helped the OP at all, you just told him to run a mechanical fan without considering his set up at all. Heck you were straight up condescending about his consideration of the mechanical fan adding load to the water pump. Which, by the way, it does actually do. It's designed to handle it, but don't mock the guy because he thought of something that's never even occurred to you. You think the water pump won't last longer or work more efficiently without those fan loads?
What you're doing is WORSE. You absolutely think the OP should do it "your way" too, but you can't even explain why it is that "your way" works. You're just running the stock set up, riding the coat tails of the engineers that designed that system, and celebrating because their design was good enough to handle your modified engine. You just got lucky that the factory system was robust enough that you didn't have to think about it.
It's the same with the Gerst. All you know is that yours hasn't failed. You can't speak to the changes in geometry, you don't understand why what you've got actually has worse geometry than the factory components, and you defend a system that has multiple documented catastrophic failures and that had to be redesigned after being bought out. And I'm the bad guy?
67_Slimer
Real Hot Rods don't shift themselves.
Oh yeah , not to mention my 4.56 gears with a 27" tire. It revs just a little bit more than it did with the 3.23s from the factory.
67_Slimer
Real Hot Rods don't shift themselves.
I truly appreciate your responses. Thank you for your input.
Just my 2 cents here. I run the same Ford Contour setup as 72bluNblu in my 73 Sport. The fan, controller, and relays. I also added a larger alternator to handle the loads. Not an issue at all in the 3 years I've been running it. For reference, the engine is a 340 with Eagle forged crank and H beam rods, JE pistons, zero-deck block, Eddy heads, Comp Cams solid flat tappet at .550 lift, Holley carb, Eddy Air Gap, and Schumacher Tri-Y headers. Chevy 200-4R and a 3.91 Sure Grip. Has never run over 200 degrees and never had the second fan start up.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
What alternator are you running?
BT67Dart
Well-Known Member
I tend to look at things from a system perspective....meaning overall cost, performance perspective for the intended use case. Anything is possible with enough time, money, and research. It really depends on your specific use case and needs. Like anything, there are pros and cons to various solutions. Leverage what others have learned to suit your specific needs and go from there.
The good news is that there are multiple ways to make a good chocolate cookie, if you get my drift.
The good news is that there are multiple ways to make a good chocolate cookie, if you get my drift.
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