Engine swap and Automatic conversion 1965 Valiant

[Fredrik.]

Hi Experts!
The engine in my 1965 Valiant 3-speed man is beyond repair, wich means I need a swap.
Also, I hate manual gears and found a 1963 904 wire with pushbutton panel.

My questions;
is the 904 swap a simple remove-install, and wich 225:s will fit bolt on?

Thanks in advance, and sorry bout my 90% correct english, since I am a swede =)

//Fredrik

 

[StrokerMcG]

Hi Experts!
The engine in my 1965 Valiant 3-speed man is beyond repair, wich means I need a swap.
Also, I hate manual gears and found a 1963 904 wire with pushbutton panel.

My questions;
is the 904 swap a simple remove-install, and wich 225:s will fit bolt on?

Thanks in advance, and sorry bout my 90% correct english, since I am a swede =)

//Fredrik

Fredrik-
All slant sixes will bolt in. Very simple exchange. Of course the pedal assembly is different for automatic transmissions. Are you going ti use the pushbutton shift mechanism or something else? I don't know if the drive shaft is the same length. I would recommend that you convert the front excuse for a u-joint to a standard u-joint.

I'm doing the opposite conversion: s/6 with automatic to v8 (273) with 4-speed.

Good luck!
Stroker a Dane from a couple generations back

 

[BillGrissom]

You need to match the engine and transmission. A "correct" engine would be 1963-1967. The matching and "correct" transmission would be 1963-1965. Around 1968 (experts can correct), the crankshaft's pilot hole was made larger, as was the matching snout on the transmission's torque converter. You can buy a ~$25 adapter ring to fit a later engine. In 1966, the transmission and driveshaft changed to a "sliding yoke". Check Google Images to insure a 1963 pushbutton panel will fit your 1965 dash. My 1964 has dash pushbuttons, whereas my 1965 has a floor shifter. I recall that no 1965's had dash pushbuttons and the whole dash layout changed. But, they used the same cable-shift transmission. If you install a floor-shifter, you also need the small weld-on bracket to secure it.

As mentioned, the driveshaft may need to be shorter for an automatic, but many shops can shorten one and balance inexpensively. The front "ball and trunnion" (aka "Detroit") "sliding U-joint" is strong and reliable, but parts are getting rare. I have enough to keep my 64 & 65 A's running for life. I posted all PN's several times, and you occasionally get lucky on ebay (I did). You can also have a custom sliding yoke fab'ed. Jeep Cherokee owners used the same PN and deal and pioneered that. I have seen one for them on ebay ~$150 for any custom length. You could use a 1966-1967 transmission to get a sliding yoke output. Can even use a later one if you get a custom torque converter or a later one and change the input shaft to later style.

There are many other options, if you don't care about "correct". A Magnum 5.2 or 5.9L V-8 will bolt-up to a later 904 (or 999) transmission. That gives cheap MPFI and roller lifters. You can even use the better Magnum transmission (overdrive), but need to rework the transmission tunnel. A V-8 also requires a different steering cross-link, and denting in the oil pan unless you get a 1964-66 oil pan.

 

[slantsixdan]

You need to match the engine and transmission.

Not really, you just need to be aware that a '68-up engine used with a '67-down transmission requires a filler ring to take up the space between the early small-diameter torque converter nose and the late large-diameter crankshaft rear flange bore, and that a '68-up transmission cannot be used behind a '67-down engine without a custom torque converter. Also, if you use an engine out of something other than a '60-'66 A-body car (Valiant, Lancer, Barracuda, Dart), you need to swap on an oil pan and pickup pipe/screen from a '60-'66 A-body engine (such as the one already in the car).

A "correct" engine would be 1963-1967.

If by "correct" we mean it will mate up with a pre-1968 automatic transmission without any adaptation required, then there is no reason to exclude '62, and '61 engines from this list. '60 engines, too, though there are a few minor differences (placement of alternator bracket) that will have to be accounted for.

The matching and "correct" transmission would be 1963-1965

Here again, if "correct" means "no adaptation", then the transmission needed depends on what we're doing for a shifter. If we're using pushbuttons, then it's '60-'64 for the transmission, the pushbutton control assembly, and the cables. If we're using a lever shifter (either on the floor or on the steering column) then it's either got to be a '65 transmission and a '65 shifter and cables, or a '66-'67 transmission and linkage rods with a '66 or later shifter—this, as you note, would also require a driveshaft change.

no 1965's had dash pushbuttons and the whole dash layout changed. But, they used the same cable-shift transmission

…with valve body differences that make '65 transmissions incompatible with pushbutton shifters and '60-'64 transmissions incompatible with lever shifters, unless you swap valve bodies or component parts to match the type of shifter you're using.

the driveshaft may need to be shorter for an automatic

Nope, same length driveshaft for 3-speed manual, 4-speed manual, and automatic.

The front "ball and trunnion" (aka "Detroit") "sliding U-joint" is strong and reliable, but parts are getting rare.

Parts are still readily available, just not in every auto parts store. Andy Bernbaum has boot kits, rebuild kits, and complete assemblies.

You can also have a custom sliding yoke fab'ed.

This is the smart way to proceed if the front universal joint needs anything beyond a new boot. Full writeup is here.

 

[cosgig]

Remember people, he's in Sweden!!

 

[slantsixdan]

Yep, he's in Sweden. A lot of Slant-6 A-bodies were sold there, but they're just as old and at least as mostly-gone over there as they are over here, so it's most helpful to the OP if we don't artificially reduce his options.

 

[Fredrik.]

The Gods has spoken!! ;)
Thanks everyone, now I feel like I know what to look for.

Are you going ti use the pushbutton shift mechanism or something else? (...) I would recommend that you convert the front excuse for a u-joint to a standard u-joint.

I'm too lazy and cheap to get a steering column from an automatic so I will try to fit a pushbutton or fabricate something out of the pushbutton console. Allergic to floor shifters...
worst case scenario is an auto steering column..

Around 1968 (experts can correct), the crankshaft's pilot hole was made larger, as was the matching snout on the transmission's torque converter. You can buy a ~$25 adapter ring to fit a later engine
The front "ball and trunnion" (aka "Detroit") "sliding U-joint" is strong and reliable, but parts are getting rare.

The apapter ring is good to know about! The U-joint will be inspected and hopefully able to be left as is..

'68-up engine used with a '67-down transmission requires a filler ring (...) and that a '68-up transmission cannot be used behind a '67-down engine without a custom torque converter
(...)

Nope, same length driveshaft for 3-speed manual, 4-speed manual, and automatic.

Same length driveshaft with the -64 and older autos means less work = "buy a wire trans"
Of course, it all comes down to what I find at reasonable prices..

How "new" engine is a good idea to buy? As I understand they lost 40hp to pass emission tests in the 70's, And that truck engines are slower? The reason I ask this is because I might have found a NOS late model truck engine at an affordable price...

Thank you all guys, you've been extremely helpful!
Now it's time to go part hunting..

And Dan: You're right - there was a lot of slant cars sold in Sweden. There was even an assembly plant in Nyköping, Sweden for the swedish Valiants!

 

[BillGrissom]

One guy here has a slant six convertible in Malaysia, w/ right-hand drive and all the changes that required. The Aussies took the slant to its highest level and sell some cool after-market parts. They even have a Chrysler "hemi" straight six, though different than a slant.

Ignore the horsepower drops in the 1970's. A little of that was real, due to emissions additions, but most was due to the way the U.S. changed the testing rules. Previously, engines could be tested on a dyno w/ external components supplying the engine. In the 1970's, they had to test them w/ the water pump, alternator, power steering, (and AC compressor?) connected and drawing their normal loads.

The latest slant engines (~1977+ or so) had different heads, termed "peanut". The spark plugs tubes went away, termed "drool-tube" and changed to lifter hydraulics. It might be hard to get performance camshafts for those. The biggest drawback is probably that the head must come off to remove the lifters (also true in my 2002 Chrysler 3.8L V-6).

If you do get a later engine, investigate transmissions. There were later derivatives of the 904 (999, ...) that might be better for fuel economy (lock-up torque converter, gearing).

 

[slantsixdan]

How "new" engine is a good idea to buy?

As new as you happen to find will be fine.

As I understand they lost 40hp to pass emission tests in the 70's

No, not really. See here. Also, Swedish emissions regulations in the Slant-6 era were much looser than American regs.

And that truck engines are slower?

No, they are not.

The reason I ask this is because I might have found a NOS late model truck engine at an affordable price...

Neat! Pounce on it!

 

[slantsixdan]

The latest slant engines (~1977+ or so) had different heads, termed "peanut"

1975 was the first year for the peanut-plug head.

The spark plugs tubes went away, termed "drool-tube" and changed to lifter hydraulics.

1981 was the first year for hydraulic lifters (except for a small-quantity production test run in 1978).

Solid-lifter engines can be converted to hydraulic and vice versa, but you have to use all the parts: camshaft, lifters, pushrods, rocker arms-and-shaft assembly, and if you're converting to hydraulic either the rear cam journal or the rear cam bearing must be grooved to provide adequate oil to operate the hydro lifters.

If you do get a later engine, investigate transmissions. There were later derivatives of the 904 (999, ...) that might be better for fuel economy (lock-up torque converter, gearing).

There is no A998 or A999 for the Slant-6, only for the A/LA V8.

Lockup torque converter came to the A904 in 1978—this increases highway fuel economy about 6% at the cost of decreased transmission reliability and durability. A wide-ratio gearset came in 1980, to make the cars' acceleration slightly less dangerously inadequate with the 2.45 and 2.26 rear axle ratios being installed at that time. The wide-ratio gearset, which is noisier, is also not well suited to the 2.93-3.23 rear axle ratios of the earlier cars.

And again, any '66-up transmission will require either a column or floor lever-type shifter and complete '66-'67 linkage. The money and hassle involved in hacking those items into a '65 car will nullify the minor fuel cost savings.

 

[Fredrik.]

Small update on my project!

I don't know what it's like in the USA, but in Sweden it seems like there is some kind of law that says "If you sell used american car parts you must be a) a complete idiot b) compulsive liar or c) tell the customer that you'll call back next week never to be heard again.
Most common is all of the above. Quite common syndrome for the buyers too i've heard.

In the end I bought a 1966 A904 in excellent condition, a 1966 225 and a 1966 auto steering column. And a brake pedal.
The trans got new oil and filter and is in place.
The engine will be de- and reassembled with new piston rings, gaskets and all parts from the dead engine that I know are better than the ones on the "new" one

This means that many of my questions here were unnecessary, but at least I've learnt a lot =)

And since sellers and buyers by law in Sweden are a pain in the ***, and i found a good seller he gave me a really nice price since he classified me as "not idiot"
904+225+all oilpipes and levers, a really good carb, auto choke, starter, alternator, brake pedal, steering column and a box of mixed gadgets - 400$
He told me that the price for not nice and friendly and reliable customers was $300 for the 904

AND he filled my truck with other parts for customers in my part of sweden = the trip actually gave me a profit

So what have i learned?
It never goes according to plans and it pays off to be nice and reliable.

//Fredrik

 

[BillGrissom]

Great result. We can get slant engines & transmissions free in the U.S. since so many change to a V-8 and can't sell the slant, but shipping to Sweden would be more than the $400 you paid, plus the other goodies you got. In a M-B diesel forum I visit, people go the other way, shipping their injection pumps to Sweden where they get reworked for higher flow.

 

[Valiant63]

Hopefully you got the drive shaft out of the 66 car if it was a 65 Valiant. If it was a Dodge Dart, it won't work (too long) and if it was any other body, it will be too long, but you can have it shortened to fit if it is too long.

 

[Fredrik.]

Hopefully you got the drive shaft out of the 66 car if it was a 65 Valiant. If it was a Dodge Dart, it won't work (too long) and if it was any other body, it will be too long, but you can have it shortened to fit if it is too long.

I already had a later shaft on the car from an earlier rebuild, the tranny is in place and fits like a glove,

New problem occured when I changed piston rings. I understand that the engine gets harder to crank since the new rings makes it tighter. However after 5 and 6 piston installed it's pretty much impossible to crank it by hand. Used lots of oil, and as I see it I did it by the book.

Distributor nylon gear broke since I sometimes do stupid things.. Not looking forward to remove the oil pan tomorrow again.

Great result. We can get slant engines & transmissions free in the U.S. since so many change to a V-8 and can't sell the slant, but shipping to Sweden would be more than the $400 you paid, plus the other goodies you got. In a M-B diesel forum I visit, people go the other way, shipping their injection pumps to Sweden where they get reworked for higher flow.

All the slants from V8 conversions here went straight to the junkpiles...

 

[64_Barracuda]

…with valve body differences that make '65 transmissions incompatible with pushbutton shifters and '60-'64 transmissions incompatible with lever shifters, unless you swap valve bodies or component parts to match the type of shifter you're using.

Hey Dan! Hope your well buddy. So I did a couple of different things that worked. I took a 65 floor shift once, with the cables and put it into a 63 and it worked great.

Next one was a strange one.... I took a 64 pushbuttons and mounted it horizontal under the Radio on a 65 (yeah don't ask)

Both were many years ago and I don't have and pictures but I wish I did..... My question is I didn't think there was a difference in the valve body. Granted I haven't put my parts books side by side, but what are the differences?

 

[Oldschoolcuda]

The 904 valve body internals between a lever shift 65 and 64 & earlier push button are different.
The 65 manual valve has a second neutral position. NRND21.
Push button valve body has only one neutral position. RND21.
Park lock is seperate on both.
Sure Dan can elaborate but think the 65 needs its lever shifter and earlier ones push buttons to function correctly.

 

[64_Barracuda]

I have never seen a Lever shift 65 only cable shifts. Interesting....

 

[slantsixdan]

The lever shifters in all the '65 cars (and in the Sport Fury and maybe one or two other '64 models) operate two cables, a shift cable and a park cable. The change from cables to linkage occurred for '66.Oldschoolcuda is exactly right about the differences between a valve body configured for pushbuttons and one configured for a lever shifter.