External oiling question

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this got interesting while i was gone...

external oiling, is it needed? seems to be a matter of opinion and for some experience. on a wedge, its probably not a necessary item. i would never bother on a iron headed 440 or anything. On a big money motor i look at it as insurance, your running a -12AN hose, basically providing a 3/4" suction. i have a indy headed 440 in my RR and i just run a 1/2 pick up and it goes 7grand on occasion. bearing clearence is also something to consider, a loose engine will require more volume, you need a bad *** pump to supply the oil and that pump needs a big suction. Hemi's are a whole other story, you have valve covers that trap over a quart each side on a pass, you need lots of oil. So you need a big pump, that pump needs alot of suction. look at any SS hemi in the pits, they will all have external oiling. those guys aren't running anything they don't need.

as for running big horse power motor on the dyno with questionable oiling (IMO), you can't compare that to being in a car that does wheel stands and pulls g force. when i worked at Livernois we did engine masters a few times. did pretty good with our BB ford. that motor was set up with a very marginal oil system, even drained out the oil a little at a time till we found how many quarts were needed just to squeak out a dyno pull. would i have stuck it in my car like that, NO...

i run my hemi 7200 all the time, even on the street. the tell tale has been on 7800 a few different time when i blew up the hemi four speeds. this car gets driven 1000's of miles every summer. i run a single line set up and a 10qt pan. last time i had the motor out for inspection the bearings looked so good i just plunked them right back in. if i ran it 8500 to 9500 like the SS guys then i'd add another suction line. but when i relentlessly hammer this engine and it looks like the day i assembled it, thats proof enough for me that my oil system is doing its job. can i say look at my oil pump, don't need to when i can say look at my valve covers :D

 
Thanks. Much appreciated for your trouble. You pretty much nailed it down for me. If I thought my ramblings were going to be viewed as "off topic" I would never have included them here. Again, much appreciated. External oiling is simply something I am not familiar with. I mean, I have seen it and I can certainly build a good system. Putting parts together is the easy part. Knowing when they are needed. That's entirely different. Seems you're the only one with sense enough to know what I was getting at. Thanks again. I thanked you for your post with the thanks button. I think some of the rest of these guys took an asshole pill or something. I am done helping people on forum though. Just not worth it. I thank you again.


68 HEMI GTS said:
this got interesting while i was gone...

external oiling, is it needed? seems to be a matter of opinion and for some experience. on a wedge, its probably not a necessary item. i would never bother on a iron headed 440 or anything. On a big money motor i look at it as insurance, your running a -12AN hose, basically providing a 3/4" suction. i have a indy headed 440 in my RR and i just run a 1/2 pick up and it goes 7grand on occasion. bearing clearence is also something to consider, a loose engine will require more volume, you need a bad *** pump to supply the oil and that pump needs a big suction. Hemi's are a whole other story, you have valve covers that trap over a quart each side on a pass, you need lots of oil. So you need a big pump, that pump needs alot of suction. look at any SS hemi in the pits, they will all have external oiling. those guys aren't running anything they don't need.

as for running big horse power motor on the dyno with questionable oiling (IMO), you can't compare that to being in a car that does wheel stands and pulls g force. when i worked at Livernois we did engine masters a few times. did pretty good with our BB ford. that motor was set up with a very marginal oil system, even drained out the oil a little at a time till we found how many quarts were needed just to squeak out a dyno pull. would i have stuck it in my car like that, NO...

i run my hemi 7200 all the time, even on the street. the tell tale has been on 7800 a few different time when i blew up the hemi four speeds. this car gets driven 1000's of miles every summer. i run a single line set up and a 10qt pan. last time i had the motor out for inspection the bearings looked so good i just plunked them right back in. if i ran it 8500 to 9500 like the SS guys then i'd add another suction line. but when i relentlessly hammer this engine and it looks like the day i assembled it, thats proof enough for me that my oil system is doing its job. can i say look at my oil pump, don't need to when i can say look at my valve covers :D

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You are welcome..As far as I know that system will fit a stock K member.I bought the dual line system and was going to use it in my car with the stock K member.I'm not sure it's been awhile when I was going that direction. I ended up buying a alter K but the single was for tight spaces. good luck and let me know.I am starting a project for a guy and he wants a exturnal system and has a stock K frame. Mark
nitrojunkee said:
Hey buddy, I appreciate your post! I spent a good amount of time on the phone with Milodon, and I know there is validity to their claims. My biggest concern was clearing the K-member in my Dart. I will just have to wait and see. Shouldn't need much if any, and I'll update this thread with my own personal findings, so if anyone else ever does this exact same deal, it may give them some piece of mind!

Thanks again, Dartcuda!
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RustyRatRod said:
Thanks. Much appreciated for your trouble. You pretty much nailed it down for me. If I thought my ramblings were going to be viewed as "off topic" I would never have included them here. Again, much appreciated. External oiling is simply something I am not familiar with. I mean, I have seen it and I can certainly build a good system. Putting parts together is the easy part. Knowing when they are needed. That's entirely different. Seems you're the only one with sense enough to know what I was getting at. Thanks again. I thanked you for your post with the thanks button. I think some of the rest of these guys took an asshole pill or something. I am done helping people on forum though. Just not worth it. I thank you again.
Click to expand...

glad i could clarify :thumblef:

 
I have one. I have the direct connection book. I have a hustle stuff book. They explain the systems well, but are still somewhat vague about when the need arises. Like inkjunkie said, I've seen slow cars with them and really fast cars without, so that made me wonder.
 
What about an Accumulator? I get the volume issue for Hemis' or high end motors. To me this would be good insurance, adding extra quarts and covering on front end lift for a moderate build?

and Hemi and Dusty - great QA, very much enjoyed this read from your two points of view/experience.
 
As far as need - it'a combination of things that determines whether or not it's needed. Going 8s in a slingshot doesn't take a ton of horsepower. They're light. I've got two teams I'm familiar with locally - one runs in the low 11s with a carbureted V6 Buick from the mid 70s - totally stock with 4bbl, a cam, and home made zoomie headers. The other runs mid 8s with a N/A/ small block Chevy and mechanical methanol injection. It makes about 500hp. So would a digger need it? Probably not unless they were really spinning it.
The suction side restriction is NOT the pickup ID. It's the passage between the pickup and the pump boss. Shine a light down there and you'll see why. The two passages intersect at about a 60° angle and the interior corner is a knife edge. Not good for fluid flow or flow redirection especially on a "pull through" scenario. That's where the additional external suction line comes into play. Because no matter what you do in the pick up boss - if the clearances are wide (as in high rpm expectation) or as referenced by the Hemi head comment the drainback is poor - the pump has to move a lot of oil and the bigger volume pumps can't suck hard enough. It will cavitate and put foamy oil into the bearings. Part of my standard big block oil system mods is to smooth out and round off the intersection point of the intake side above the boss. This was one of the mods addressed in a book I've had since 1986 - One of the HP books on Mopar Wedge V-8 engines. Seems like a lot of the books coming out now may mention the modifications but fail to note what the cause for it's re-engineering was. In this case it says it's a circle track/road race modification - but big blocks were starting to be regulated out of circle track at that point so I think the info started to be left out. The only other reason would be a larger stroke crank -anything beyond 4.25 (and some 4.15s) may need the external line(s) because the rotating assembly will not clear.

Edit - to the OP - whether it clears of not depends a lot on the Kframe and mounts your car has, and how the external line is plumbed. If it were me I'd mock it up without the line in the chassis, see what you can do, and then do it.
 
Thanks moper. I do have another question or two, but I'll find the answers elsewhere. I don't want to get the thread anymore "off topic".
 
Stock big blocks actually did have a designed-in-by-Mopar lube system deficiency created by a combination of the 187 pan and the total volume of oil available for the system. It didn't normally show up in regular driving, but it was there. The system used enough oil in normal operation including whatever was up under the valve covers to uncover the pickup under acceleration when oil pushed to the rear of the pan. If you were running it hard a quart low they could easily suffer some damage.

It was addressed in the HP engines with windage trays and they started putting baffles in the pans at some point, but even so it didn't help much. Overfilling them was the best approach.
RustyRatRod said:
I want proof.
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I saw it on an oil pressure gauge - all the proof I needed.
 
Yeah, but who in their right mind would use a 187 stock oil pan on a hot big block? Somebody cheapin by to put one in an A body maybe. Any fool building a real high performance engine would put a high capacity pan on.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Yeah, but who in their right mind would use a 187 stock oil pan on a hot big block?
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Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth cranked them off the assembly line in large numbers, mass-produced.

But then again, their state of mind has been questioned from time-to-time.

And it did not matter, hot or not. It was a design deficiency present in every single one of them.
 
I know but they were C body only pans on slow land yachts.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I know but they were C body only pans on slow land yachts.
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Ever heard of the Chrysler TnT? Hurst package?

They were many things, but slow was not one of them.

And again, I am not talking about just C-bods. Every RB engine, regardless of what it was installed in. The pan was slightly different due to idler clearance on the C, but not much different in design on any other engine/chassis combo. 187 was actually an improvement...

http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/oilpans.html
 
Well sure, but yes, they were slow in comparison.
 
Well as long as we got this thread hijacked now...
RustyRatRod said:
Well sure, but yes, they were slow in comparison.
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Slow in comparison to anything that is faster and faster than the vast majority of a-bodies that came off the assembly line with /6's, 273's and 318's. 383's were standard in the fuesy C's. Pound for pound, car for car, engine for engine, they were on average, faster than a-bodies.
 
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