340_dart_power
Well-Known Member
Here is a piece I had alot of involvement with (welding/fitting/fabricating):
That is one beautiful creation. Reminds me of a musical instrument.
FABO Small Block header IDEA*
- Thread starter Prine
- Start date
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That is one beautiful creation. Reminds me of a musical instrument.
More Developements....
Talked to the SPD supplier for the Head Flanges....looking at $160/pr for the Mild Steel and $320/pr for the T304 Stainless.....talked to a couple of other Online Manufacturers and found prices from $100/pr Mild Steel, and $200/pr T304 Stainless.
So far everything has been an estimate....and its looking like we might price this concept out of existance before (1) header is ever fabbed.
Knowing the frustrations of lower priced headers, I would still personally prefer to spend the money on something that was designed with all of our frustration eliminating features in mind....
Well....I am still doing behind the scenes materials research...so keep the questions/comments coming.
Prine
Talked to the SPD supplier for the Head Flanges....looking at $160/pr for the Mild Steel and $320/pr for the T304 Stainless.....talked to a couple of other Online Manufacturers and found prices from $100/pr Mild Steel, and $200/pr T304 Stainless.
So far everything has been an estimate....and its looking like we might price this concept out of existance before (1) header is ever fabbed.
Knowing the frustrations of lower priced headers, I would still personally prefer to spend the money on something that was designed with all of our frustration eliminating features in mind....
Well....I am still doing behind the scenes materials research...so keep the questions/comments coming.
Prine
Small Block
Well-Known Member
Prine: No one would be better capable to test fit up the header in a car than you. Then you will be able to see what is happening and where aditional effort is needed. Is there an A body in your area, running or not, that you would be able to use for such a trial fit. This is something you need to do rather than have someone try and explain what is needed where. Sort a remove a link from the chain. I'll have plenty of R&D money when we get the preliminaries worked out. Look in your area for a suitable unit to do a mock up on. As long as it has a small block in it your good to go. No need for it to run at this time, right? Maybe rent it for a spell. Too bad i'm not closer, we'd have a field full of mock up units to work with. Looks like you will need a car with all components in place prior to startup? PM me a phone # so we can talk. I'll do the same. I can call you as it don't cost me anything.
Small Block
Small Block
I'm guessing that this concept would be applicable for the 67-76 models. Us early A guys left out again :sad:
You will need a test bed. There is no way to judge brake booster clearance and such without one.
If I were to attempt such as this I couldn't invest much capital in the idea.
I suppose I would buy some rusty old sets of Headmans in various types and cut them up.
There may be heat and / or noise issues that can't be resolved.
Good luck.
If I were to attempt such as this I couldn't invest much capital in the idea.
I suppose I would buy some rusty old sets of Headmans in various types and cut them up.
There may be heat and / or noise issues that can't be resolved.
Good luck.
I understand what you are saying about needing a vehicle on the premises to mock up and test fit on....although I know it would be better, I have a set of 318 Dart Manifolds I intended to get preliminary mock-up placement from....The variables that come into play with pipe placement is (1) the Standard....Motor Mounts..(99% "most" in the exact same location across the year span) (2) Power or Manual Steering boxs'
(only a Size/Length Difference), (3) Starter Location and (4) Oil filter.
I gazed at my 70 Dart many a minute, looking at it and thinking "if only the manifolds were not so restrictive...they fit perfectly".
I want to keep the concept in just about the same exterior dimensions as a V8 Manifold, with as close as possible to the factory Outlet Location as a factory manifold.
The V-Band Exhuast flange setup, will completely eliminate the need for any special tools or contorsionist positions to get loose....just a 1/2" deep socket on a 1/4" drive rachet...with a 2" extension....everyone gets that combo of tools in the basic craftsman tool kit.
I know a couple of hardcore mopar guys here in town, and know one of the guys' has a 73 Duster 318 that could be bought for cheap and used...probably without any conflict whatsoever.
I am finding out:
There is alot of information to think about and look into before jumping off on a venture such as this....I am still very enthusiastic, and motivated, But you guys surely know what I am talking about.
(only a Size/Length Difference), (3) Starter Location and (4) Oil filter.
I gazed at my 70 Dart many a minute, looking at it and thinking "if only the manifolds were not so restrictive...they fit perfectly".
I want to keep the concept in just about the same exterior dimensions as a V8 Manifold, with as close as possible to the factory Outlet Location as a factory manifold.
The V-Band Exhuast flange setup, will completely eliminate the need for any special tools or contorsionist positions to get loose....just a 1/2" deep socket on a 1/4" drive rachet...with a 2" extension....everyone gets that combo of tools in the basic craftsman tool kit.
I know a couple of hardcore mopar guys here in town, and know one of the guys' has a 73 Duster 318 that could be bought for cheap and used...probably without any conflict whatsoever.
I am finding out:
There is alot of information to think about and look into before jumping off on a venture such as this....I am still very enthusiastic, and motivated, But you guys surely know what I am talking about.
Small Block
Well-Known Member
I'm with ya Prine. Keep it up. Rome wasn't built in a day. If it were easy, everyone would do it. The idea with the 318 duster is agiven. Maybe you could rent it for mock up unless it was CHEAP, i mean real cheap. I PM'd you a phone # and i need your when your ready to converse.
Small Block
Small Block
Nice talking with you on the phone Small Block....
more developements:
Everywhere I look T304 Stainless is 2x to 2.5x the price of Mild Steel of the flange/same diameter....Guess its one of things you can't get around.
I have spoken with some metal retailers about specifications and prices, but forgot to ask about ordering in more than 1-10 piece volumes....I know you can get price breaks for ordering more thana couple of pieces at a time.
Small Block and I have spoken and decided to give -0001 a go...but some specifics are still undecided...and we are working them....In the next few weeks I am going to source a mockup 67-76 engine bay to dive into...and more developements will be posted as they occur.
Don't worry Early A guys....I would love to serve your intrests as well...but I have never installed a set of headers on a pre-67 A to know what the heart-aches are....I am guessing the Standard A-Body header doesn't fit...or there is serious modification...or what...someone lay out the pre-67 fitment issues. I am aware the inner fenders are closer..is there any other fitment hurdles?
Stay Tuned......
more developements:
Everywhere I look T304 Stainless is 2x to 2.5x the price of Mild Steel of the flange/same diameter....Guess its one of things you can't get around.
I have spoken with some metal retailers about specifications and prices, but forgot to ask about ordering in more than 1-10 piece volumes....I know you can get price breaks for ordering more thana couple of pieces at a time.
Small Block and I have spoken and decided to give -0001 a go...but some specifics are still undecided...and we are working them....In the next few weeks I am going to source a mockup 67-76 engine bay to dive into...and more developements will be posted as they occur.
Don't worry Early A guys....I would love to serve your intrests as well...but I have never installed a set of headers on a pre-67 A to know what the heart-aches are....I am guessing the Standard A-Body header doesn't fit...or there is serious modification...or what...someone lay out the pre-67 fitment issues. I am aware the inner fenders are closer..is there any other fitment hurdles?
Stay Tuned......
Small Block
Well-Known Member
Things that Kelly and I discussed were the possibility of exploring a slant six dual header. There are many possibilties here that can benefit alot of people so hang on and we'll see what happens. I've thrown money at worse projects so this cant be any worse. May have something in the works as early as the end of the month. Kelly will keep us posted as things develope. Any ideas please post your thoughts.
Small Block
Small Block
clairday modtop
there's no car like mopar
this may be a dumb ?. but why cant you cut and fab up your own Exhuast flanges. i meen is there a speical way of doing it?
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
Prine, How about I ask my pal if he can water jet cut the flanges for a reasonable amount? Should not be too tough if you have the file in a usable format.
Tom
Tom
Good stuff guys...I'll dig up my Flange Blueprint and provide me with a email address and I'll forward it to ya.
I would like to source the Exhaust Head Flange for under $100 a pair to keep the material costs in line.
Prine
I would like to source the Exhaust Head Flange for under $100 a pair to keep the material costs in line.
Prine
Small Block
Well-Known Member
Anyone wanting a piece of the big pie should be able to do the flanges for $50 a pr going in. Gota screw em down. I'm checking in my area also. I'm with VOETOM. Put in a program and turn it on.
Small Block
Small Block
Here is the blueprint drawing...although I don't think it contains all the details....a Fel-Pro Exhaust Manifold Gasket would work, and is usually readily accessible to Mopar Nuts....if all else fails carry one of those with you.
I'll be in the chat room for a bit if anyone wants to chat.
Prine
I'll be in the chat room for a bit if anyone wants to chat.
Prine
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
Send it to me in a DWG or DXF file (I think) and I can send it to Tim my water jet friend; 3/8" steel right?
Tom
[email protected]
Tom
[email protected]
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
Here are some I built for Pontiac. Real ones look way cool ceramic coated. Will get photos up soon.
I think you need to re-angle the tubes going into the log and here is why. I took a set of 340 manifolds and “fixed” the drivers side so the airflow really screamed from the last cylinder. I put them on and consistently lost 1.5 tenths when running them. We had taken the section out that redirected the last cylinder and curved it into the outlet; this same section also redirected the flow from the front three and kept them from going straight into the rear port. I learned that any time you have one firing into the others, it is way bad and that is what the log will do unless you isolate cylinders like the later (1991) 360 and 318 Jeep manifolds do. The “ guppy” ones come to mind. You know what I am saying Prine?
I think you need to re-angle the tubes going into the log and here is why. I took a set of 340 manifolds and “fixed” the drivers side so the airflow really screamed from the last cylinder. I put them on and consistently lost 1.5 tenths when running them. We had taken the section out that redirected the last cylinder and curved it into the outlet; this same section also redirected the flow from the front three and kept them from going straight into the rear port. I learned that any time you have one firing into the others, it is way bad and that is what the log will do unless you isolate cylinders like the later (1991) 360 and 318 Jeep manifolds do. The “ guppy” ones come to mind. You know what I am saying Prine?
Most likely a R12 dxf will get the job done. Some of the industrial machines/software have issues with newer version dxf files. I think something in the file header freaks them out.
Back in the day I was considering this prospect as well. Making headers is one of those things that appeals to my nature. It's like solving a puzzle. My problem is I have too much ADD to keep myself occupied with one idea. I've created a lot of little inventions that I always have big ideas to market, but then it gets replaced by the next thing I come up with. LOL
When I made the headers for my '66 Cuda, I couldn't find anything available to work with power steering, and absolutely noting available with thick flanges. If there would have been something available that is more of a shorty header that I didn't have to take a second on my house to buy, I would have probably just gone bought them instead. I did have a lot of fun making them though, so glad I did it.
I had built a few sets by then, and I started thinking I could start making headers to fill the void of quality product out there. But then I started working on other projects and I just blew it off. #-o
Started a hot rod shop instead, that was fun while it lasted.8)
When I made the headers for my '66 Cuda, I couldn't find anything available to work with power steering, and absolutely noting available with thick flanges. If there would have been something available that is more of a shorty header that I didn't have to take a second on my house to buy, I would have probably just gone bought them instead. I did have a lot of fun making them though, so glad I did it.
I had built a few sets by then, and I started thinking I could start making headers to fill the void of quality product out there. But then I started working on other projects and I just blew it off. #-o
Started a hot rod shop instead, that was fun while it lasted.8)
Im pretty new to the site, but im actually a professional header fabricator, been doing it all my life. I started my buisness Performance Welding Racing Headers in 1999, every year it gets better and the last few years have been a turing point and im now very succesful. I commend you young man Prine, with the hopes of buidling headers for these cars at a fair price. A body Mopars are a lot of work to build headers on. I have a Competition Header for Small Block A bodys but not at a reasonable price at $1700 in mild steel and $2700 in Stainless Steel, but remember these are a true competition race header with merge collectors, wide radius bends, and equal length, serious race car stuff. On my Street Car, which is a 68 Notchback, when I put the 340 in it, my hopes are to build a header with a similar look to the Stock cast manifolds, but much better, sounds similar to your idea, but this is just for myself, I have no goal in the future to market these, im too busy building competition headers at this time. I also wanted to make a nice header to sort of duplicate the tall ram style manifold on the max wedge cars, but lost the opertunity as my buddies car was sold. Anyways keep at it. To make it simple use 1 5/8" or 1 3/4" tubing, 16 ga. mild steel would work well, and its inexpensive. Try and find someone to lazer cut the flanges for you out of 3 /8" cold rolled steel, there cheap if you have them done in quantity. Go with a 2 1/2" collector as thats more then big enough for 300 - 450 hp applications, and probably the most common size exhaust anyone is going to use with the headers your gonna build. Good luck and have fun. Oh by the way I wake up with dreams about building headers, well they used to be dreams now there more like nightmares. Actually I get some of my best ideas while dreaming.
Thanks
Mark Lelchook
Thanks
Mark Lelchook
Small Block
Well-Known Member
Welcome Mark, Glad to have some real brain cells on board here. Sounds like you've been n the thick of the header stuff. I'm impressed with any work that looks like the piece Kelly posted for us. That's not a piece you'd want to bolt on an old car. That's art.
FISHBREATH
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I continue to be impressed by the talent on this site. Between Pat and his radical intake and you guys with the exhaust technology, there are some brain cells at work here. Remember, the Wright brothers also had an idea.
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
Prine, let me post series of shots and you will see what I meant by cutting out the redirecting divider.
See where it dips way in back by 5 and 7? We cut that out and made it straight across like a log manifold will be. It hated it, very much. Each and every run was 1.5 tenths slower and about 1.5 MPH off.
I swapped the manifold at the strip and for sure, it was the manifold that caused the huge loss in power. Those factory engineering guys know what they are doing, even back in 1967!
Tom
See where it dips way in back by 5 and 7? We cut that out and made it straight across like a log manifold will be. It hated it, very much. Each and every run was 1.5 tenths slower and about 1.5 MPH off.
I swapped the manifold at the strip and for sure, it was the manifold that caused the huge loss in power. Those factory engineering guys know what they are doing, even back in 1967!
Tom
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
And here is what you need to try to do, keep the center ports and all the others in fact, split for a ways before the merge. See the line I drew to show where the as cast divider is in the manifold now?
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