FiTech EFI System??

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Sounds promising-maybe I'll slap this on my 383 when it comes time--if it's still on the market.
 
Early Bosch injectors with protruding pintle are, annular injectors dispensing fuel in the shape of a ring. Nothing new about that, Both the 1969 VW T3 and Porsche 914 used annular injectors.

Port injection gets around wet fuel distribution issues. OEM EFI systems retried TBI in the 90's in favor of port injection. The simplicity of installation from carb conversion is only advantage I see.

The system has fairly crude tuning capabilities based on my experience. A 3 x 3 matrix for ignition timing would be similar to a standard mechanical advance distributor. For optimal tuning more points are needed. Fuel tuning is also crude in comparison to other systems.
 
So does that mean you've installed and used it and are not impressed with it's capabilities?
 
cdavis said:
Looks like throttle body injection. It says near the beginning it comes with either 4 or 8 injectors for 400 to 800 hp.
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I guess the injectors are inside the throttle body. In my mind, I was picturing injectors similar to multi-port EFI plugged into the sides of the throttle body with fuel rails.

67Dart273 said:
It's known as annular. Supposed to create better fuel distribution.
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Ah, I see. I watched the video at work with the sound down. I'll have to watch it again with the sound up.

67Dart273 said:
No but he knows what he's talking about. Dave you think this might be Arduino based LOL
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That seriously made me laugh! LOL I have a few Arduino's around here actually. I have an Uno board an a few micro boards that plug directly in a breadboard. I used them for Halloween prop control. Worked decently well, but that was due to my creative sketches. ;) Maybe with some creativity, chewing gum, and luck I can build an EFI too! Not likely! LOL I'm totally kidding by the way! :)
 
67Dart273 said:
No but he knows what he's talking about. Dave you think this might be Arduino based LOL
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And that's cool--I just wanted a slightly more elaborate answer. I have some experience with older piggyback systems that used similar "crude" anchor points...they were more like 4x5 resolution, but that system also used the same interpolation of data input by the programmer, then the adaptive strategies in the base programming modified the calculations from those input anchor points by multipliers to make fine tuning adjustments that were transparent to the user. On the timing control, does it not adjust the timing based on load v rpm? That's what it looks like based on the description, and probably does do that. The system I mentioned above had similar anchor points for timing as well, but just because I input, say 24*, at 2600 rpm for increased load, the computer would still fine tune that number based on load tables, and sometimes the handheld would display as much as 44* at low load and cruising RPMs...I don't think I would consider that an analog of straight mechanical advance. Just trying to glean a better perspective of his statement.

As much as I agree that TBI is a primitive version of EFI, and multiport is an improvement, anything that makes cold start drive-away easier, and can "self tune" without having to change out air bleeds or squirters or some other modification to a metering plate, it may bear some scrutiny. Multi port on an engine like, say--the 383 I'll finally be able build after I retire from the AF--will require either a special manifold, or one modified to use those injectors, and an electronics suite to run it...one of the MS systems was on my mind, but if I buy that system new, I'm still out several hundred dollars (if not over a grand) just for all the hardware, then I'll need to download a base program and modify it to my needs, then constantly tweak it as needs arise to fine tune. While I'm not opposed to that approach, I'd prefer a system I can just install, make some initial adjustments, start, drive around for a little bit, establish some baselines and then be done with it.

Or did I completely miss something...?
 
All of this discussion begs the question how much better really is TBI than a carburetor?

I still don't see enough of a difference to spend 1K on something to replace my beautiful running 100 buck carburetor. Not yet.
 
RustyRatRod said:
All of this discussion begs the question how much better really is TBI than a carburetor? I still don't see enough of a difference to spend 1K on something to replace my beautiful running 100 buck carburetor. Not yet.
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Only real way to tell that would be to compare empirical values...
 
A TBI system if well tuned both with intake port balance and fuel controls may have some improvements over carb. The improvements would mainly be due to temperature compensations and O2 closed loop control. If TBI not properly tuned, a carb wins for simplicity, cost and the ability to drive around problems, using careful foot on the pedal control.

My observation of crude capability is not based on trying the system, but looking at the available tune settings via the programming interface. I compared those with features I developed, and have applied on many engines. There is a huge difference between getting an engine to run, and getting optimal performance for both power and economy. Settings need to be refined in a way to make adjustments based on more table points. Tuning tables need to follow engine dynamics of volumetric efficiency for fuel, and flame travel speed on ignition. The tables are surfaces with valleys, slopes and peaks.

To put this in perspective, the Fi system tunes ignition with a 3 x 3 matrix. I use a 16 x 10, this is RPM x MAP. Comparing 9 cells to 160, suggest a huge difference, modern OEM systems are more than double what I use.

I can go on about much more, but do not want to hijack the thread.
 
Watching this discussion with interest, so I did some more checking. Some of the other aftermarket EFI's have injectors below the throttle blades (FAST, Edelbrock). Edelbrock even has a remote sump fuel pump kit. MSD makes a big deal about injecting through annular boosters above the throttle blades, and also has an integral ECU. Holley injects below the throttle blades but makes a big deal about using annular rings similar to this one. Who knows which one is best? EFI is definitely on my wish list, and this one could be the answer, if it works well. If it works well, it may also drive the price down on some of the others.
 
qkcuda said:
............ Some of the other aftermarket EFI's have injectors below the throttle blades (FAST, Edelbrock). ............. MSD makes a big deal about injecting through annular boosters above the throttle blades,.................. Holley injects below the throttle blades but makes a big deal about using annular rings similar to this one. Who knows which one is best? ..............
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Even individual cylinder injection is controverted. Some of the ITB stuff has injectors above the trumpets more like TBI with the injectors up on top

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwG7ppkvyIA"]Kinsler Top Feed Injection - YouTube[/ame]
 
I was surprised to see some old Formula 1 engines in a museum that were the same way.
 
I don't see it as hijacking...it's parsing out the OP's question by addressing the advertised system's perceived lack of fine tuning resolution/capability to help him make an educated choice as to whether or not he might be interested in buying it.

Otherwise, what I gleaned out of this is that you believe if the OP wants to truly pursue EFI, he should go with an MPFI setup and buy a near infinitely tunable system like MS3 or similar...and that this system is no better than a well tuned carb and dizzy.

I hate to make it sound so...final, but if we don't speak in concise terms on here, it can come across sometimes as just talking around a question as opposed to actually answering it...I hope that makes sense.

KitCarlson said:
A TBI system if well tuned both with intake port balance and fuel controls may have some improvements over carb. The improvements would mainly be due to temperature compensations and O2 closed loop control. If TBI not properly tuned, a carb wins for simplicity, cost and the ability to drive around problems, using careful foot on the pedal control.

My observation of crude capability is not based on trying the system, but looking at the available tune settings via the programming interface. I compared those with features I developed, and have applied on many engines. There is a huge difference between getting an engine to run, and getting optimal performance for both power and economy. Settings need to be refined in a way to make adjustments based on more table points. Tuning tables need to follow engine dynamics of volumetric efficiency for fuel, and flame travel speed on ignition. The tables are surfaces with valleys, slopes and peaks.

To put this in perspective, the Fi system tunes ignition with a 3 x 3 matrix. I use a 16 x 10, this is RPM x MAP. Comparing 9 cells to 160, suggest a huge difference, modern OEM systems are more than double what I use.

I can go on about much more, but do not want to hijack the thread.
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Frankly, at the cost of NEW carburetors, not something you found at a yard sale, this system seems pretty attractive to me. Only time will tell whether it holds up.

There's been others.......some of which I never heard of until after they went bankrupt LOL
 
67Dart273 said:
Frankly, at the cost of NEW carburetors, not something you found at a yard sale, this system seems pretty attractive to me. Only time will tell whether it holds up. There's been others.......some of which I never heard of until after they went bankrupt LOL
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Good point. I've looked at the systems from Affordable EFI more than once...they use either new or reconditioned computers from factory GM TBI/TPI systems and couple that with a new harness custom made to your needs. And you can include the hard parts like intake distributor and throttle body units and such too. It may not be technologically on par with newer systems but, they were mass produced until about 1995 or so and the vehicles that used those systems are still on the road...everywhere, and replacement parts are readily available at almost any parts store.

I don't know what sensors this system uses, but if they're common off the shelf OE style, the sustainability is there. If they're one offs only available from the vendor, that's a problem.
 
Somewhere (their FAQ?) they stated they are GM sensors
 
txstang84 said:
I don't see it as hijacking...it's parsing out the OP's question by addressing the advertised system's perceived lack of fine tuning resolution/capability to help him make an educated choice as to whether or not he might be interested in buying it.

Otherwise, what I gleaned out of this is that you believe if the OP wants to truly pursue EFI, he should go with an MPFI setup and buy a near infinitely tunable system like MS3 or similar...and that this system is no better than a well tuned carb and dizzy.

I hate to make it sound so...final, but if we don't speak in concise terms on here, it can come across sometimes as just talking around a question as opposed to actually answering it...I hope that makes sense.
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I am only giving my opinion the best I can based on information at hand. It is up to the OP to make his own decision.
 
I would be concerned about my factory air cleaner appears to be fairly tall my bad just read where they say stock air cleaner is no problem
 
I don;t know about the efi setup but if their sump system is as good as they claim I'm in for one of those . The only other offering out there I have found is the Edelbrock unit for 500 bucks and it only claims to support about 500hp , not enough for my current motor and definitely not enough for the upgrades I am planning , this unit is claiming enough flow and pressure for 800hp . If this is true screw the throttle body I'll be piecing together a multiport setup with multiple O2 sensors .

PS I don't know what sort of carb you guys get for 100 bucks but up here a new HP950 Ultra is more than a 1000 bucks so these sort of systems a quickly becoming apples to apples price wise for us .
 
One thing everyone is overlooking is the fact that you can plug a laptop into the handheld and pro tune this efi. The 3x3 matrix is for the guy who only wants basic tuning.
I talking to the tech guy about this system for about an hour and he could've kept going but it was getting over my head.
He was said a Mpfi is coming in a couple months.
 
wireweld said:
One thing everyone is overlooking is the fact that you can plug a laptop into the handheld and pro tune this efi. The 3x3 matrix is for the guy who only wants basic tuning. I talking to the tech guy about this system for about an hour and he could've kept going but it was getting over my head. He was said a Mpfi is coming in a couple months.
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Oh rearry? Even better.
 
I still don't see enough of a difference to spend 1K on something to replace my beautiful running 100 buck carburetor. Not yet
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I've had $100 carbs all my life and a few that ran really well. But I have yet to find any carb that runs better than even the basic tbi. I know what you're saying Rusty, but if it works as well as they say, they'll have my $1000 before the end of the year. I've been looking at it pretty hard all day since I saw the post. All I want is basic efi that can self adjust to cold, hot, and yes I like the quick fuel, msd, and fast the best but for the life of me I can't understand why it cost so much. It's just thottles body
 
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