Then You're not really ready for the alignment.
FRONT END ALIGNMENT QUESTIONS
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With rear height and ride height set at it's current weight, should I not be able to align it based on that? I planned on revisiting it again once it is complete and settled (everything is new). What is concerning me is the difference between left side and right side camber when the control arms are set the same.
Put Your weight on the Dr. Side frt. floor & recheck Your camber readings.
I'll give that a try......But I'm 132 lbs so not sure how much of a difference it will make. I may have to hire a chubby chauffeur for cruise nights
Are you sure you have your camber definition correct?
The camber gain on these cars is negative. So, as the car is lowered, the camber gets more negative. You can see that in the chart from Bill Reilly's old article. This car is lowered already by about 1", and has about 1.5" of rake. As you can see, as the suspension is compressed the camber gets more and more negative. As it droops you initially get positive camber gain, then it goes negative again. However, at the factory ride height you'd get positive camber gain for longer than this chart suggests.
I'll mess with this this weekend. I have spare parts so I will try the control arm first, then the spindle. The car is just being put together and I'm in the home stretch. LOL....I'm thinking if a frame shop needs to get involved I will cut my losses and part it out.
You haven't checked nearly enough things yet to even be considering a frame shop, let alone parting the car.
The car has to be at its final ride height to set the alignment. If you've set the ride height where you want it to be when the car is fully loaded, you CAN align the car. But keep in mind, once the car is fully assembled, your torsion bar adjustment will be completely different to put the car at the same ride height.
Is the car level side to side? How high is it sitting? If you did the measurements by the FSM, you should be at the proper ride height (although your torsion bar adjuster settings will change completely when the car is assembled). The FSM ride height method sets the angle of the lower control arm, so if you keep the lower control arm in the same place the alignment mostly stays the same. The issue you'll have is that you'll need to weight the back end of the car, because if the rake is different than it will be loaded then your caster settings will be different.
I plan on digging this weekend. I will take pics as I go. Basically, what I want to do is set the alignment in it's current state to see that I can get things correct. I realize that once the car is at full weight and the suspension components have a chance to settle in that I will have to reset the alignment. I just didn't want to keep working on this thing if something is F'd up.Are you sure you have your camber definition correct?
View attachment 1716362765
The camber gain on these cars is negative. So, as the car is lowered, the camber gets more negative. You can see that in the chart from Bill Reilly's old article. This car is lowered already by about 1", and has about 1.5" of rake. As you can see, as the suspension is compressed the camber gets more and more negative. As it droops you initially get positive camber gain, then it goes negative again. However, at the factory ride height you'd get positive camber gain for longer than this chart suggests.
You haven't checked nearly enough things yet to even be considering a frame shop, let alone parting the car.
The car has to be at its final ride height to set the alignment. If you've set the ride height where you want it to be when the car is fully loaded, you CAN align the car. But keep in mind, once the car is fully assembled, your torsion bar adjustment will be completely different to put the car at the same ride height.
Is the car level side to side? How high is it sitting? If you did the measurements by the FSM, you should be at the proper ride height (although your torsion bar adjuster settings will change completely when the car is assembled). The FSM ride height method sets the angle of the lower control arm, so if you keep the lower control arm in the same place the alignment mostly stays the same. The issue you'll have is that you'll need to weight the back end of the car, because if the rake is different than it will be loaded then your caster settings will be different.
When I jack the front of the car, as the upper control arm swings downward in an arc towards the bump stop does that not pull the top of the knuckle in?......Giving more negative camber? LOL.....Geometry is not one of my better personal attributes.
Here are a couple of pics. First one is 1 5/8 ride height. The next 2 are after a few successive pumps of the jack under the k frame. You are looking at the negative camber scale. At around 1/4 degree neg Camber, it is visibly noticeable. On a 14 inch rim with a framing square, there is 1/4 inch difference between the top and the bottom of the rim towards negative.Are you sure you have your camber definition correct?
View attachment 1716362765
The camber gain on these cars is negative. So, as the car is lowered, the camber gets more negative. You can see that in the chart from Bill Reilly's old article. This car is lowered already by about 1", and has about 1.5" of rake. As you can see, as the suspension is compressed the camber gets more and more negative. As it droops you initially get positive camber gain, then it goes negative again. However, at the factory ride height you'd get positive camber gain for longer than this chart suggests.
You haven't checked nearly enough things yet to even be considering a frame shop, let alone parting the car.
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The car has to be at its final ride height to set the alignment. If you've set the ride height where you want it to be when the car is fully loaded, you CAN align the car. But keep in mind, once the car is fully assembled, your torsion bar adjustment will be completely different to put the car at the same ride height.
Is the car level side to side? How high is it sitting? If you did the measurements by the FSM, you should be at the proper ride height (although your torsion bar adjuster settings will change completely when the car is assembled). The FSM ride height method sets the angle of the lower control arm, so if you keep the lower control arm in the same place the alignment mostly stays the same. The issue you'll have is that you'll need to weight the back end of the car, because if the rake is different than it will be loaded then your caster settings will be different.
I do have some rake in this car (back is high). A level on the sill shows about 5/8 of an inch over 2 feet. But again, trying to figure out why both sides are different.
I plan on digging this weekend. I will take pics as I go. Basically, what I want to do is set the alignment in it's current state to see that I can get things correct. I realize that once the car is at full weight and the suspension components have a chance to settle in that I will have to reset the alignment. I just didn't want to keep working on this thing if something is F'd up.
When I jack the front of the car, as the upper control arm swings downward in an arc towards the bump stop does that not pull the top of the knuckle in?......Giving more negative camber? LOL.....Geometry is not one of my better personal attributes.
So look, here's the deal. If you set the front ride height with the FSM directions, it is at ride height. The problem is, the rear of the car IS NOT. The procedure in the FSM doesn't care about the weight of the car, it only controls the angle of the LCA. Adjusting blade and lower ball joint. That's it. You can set that angle with the car loaded, unloaded, whatever.
But if the front suspension is at ride height, but the car is unloaded, then the rake on the car will be severe because the ride height on the rear of the car depends entirely on how much the car weighs. Unlike the front the leaf springs in the back absolutely depend on the weight of the car to determine the ride height.
Positive caster means the top of the spindle is tipped backward, toward the rear of the car. If the rear of the car is high, you lose caster. You have positive camber, and you have to trade camber for caster with the adjusters. But your caster number isn't anywhere near what it will actually be when the car is loaded. The camber number won't change, but the caster may change dramatically when the car is loaded. If you want to even attempt to get realistic numbers, you're going to have to weight the back of the car to load the rear springs.
Sure, it's not great that the car isn't the same side to side. But have you even measured the ride height from the floor to the fender lips? Is the car sitting flat side to side? If it's not then the difference in the alignment numbers may be reflecting the car not sitting level side to side.
If you want the alignment numbers to mean absolutely anything, the entire car has to be sitting at the final ride height- front to back and side to side. Otherwise the numbers you're getting don't mean much.
What gauge are you using? All the ones I've seen use a single bubble gauge for the camber, which has both positive and negative camber on the same bubble.
Thanks for the reply. I'll spend some time with it this weekend, make some notes, and report back.
I have 200 lbs plus a spare tire in the trunk to simulate a weighted car. My gauge is a metal Longacre unit that threads onto the spindle and has 2 separate camber vials.
I have 200 lbs plus a spare tire in the trunk to simulate a weighted car. My gauge is a metal Longacre unit that threads onto the spindle and has 2 separate camber vials.
That gauge will serve you well. I use one probably made by the same company but mine is branded "Joe's Racing" and is magnetic to the spindle.
Most circle track gauges use two vials for camber. This allows an extended range of measurement without having a single vial that is very long and cumbersome. Circle track cars can have extreme camber settings when compared to street driven cars.
I subbed in a few parts today hoping to make a difference.....
With everything the held consistent, I went from +1 3/4 to +1 1/8 camber by subbing in a loaded control arm with off set bushings installed for max caster.
Then, I subbed in another knuckle and went from + 1 1/8 to +1 camber.
The minute changes, in my opinion, are not indicative of damaged components.
Any attempt to gain neg camber resulted in pos caster dropping to near zero.
I will drop the rear 1 inch to see how that affects caster.
Dropping the rear 1 inch had negligible effect on caster. Maybe 1/8 degree at most.
With everything the held consistent, I went from +1 3/4 to +1 1/8 camber by subbing in a loaded control arm with off set bushings installed for max caster.
Then, I subbed in another knuckle and went from + 1 1/8 to +1 camber.
The minute changes, in my opinion, are not indicative of damaged components.
Any attempt to gain neg camber resulted in pos caster dropping to near zero.
I will drop the rear 1 inch to see how that affects caster.
Dropping the rear 1 inch had negligible effect on caster. Maybe 1/8 degree at most.
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How was your lower ball joint side to side measurement?
I couldn't figure out how to get a central measurement to compare the distances. Would I measure frame rail to frame rail and divide by 2?
If I drop a plumb line from the frame rail on each side to get a reference mark on the floor. Then measure the distance between the 2 to get a center point on the floor. Then, measure each ball joint to that point on the floor.
OR
Same plumb lines from that frame rail to get a point directly below the rail, then measure the distance from the BJ to that point. That would tell me the relationship between the rail (where the top mounts are) and it's respective BJ.
Spent the day subbing in parts. Ruled out damaged components. Best I could get on the DS with ride height set to FSM was - 3/8 camber and +1 caster....That's with no shims.
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Set ride high equal on both sides. Car is sitting level in the front as far as the rails go. The pass fender lip is 1/4 inch higher than the pass side, but the aprons are AMD so the panels may be reflecting that.
Also, right rear of the car is sitting 3/8 higher than the left, sitting on it's suspension....New springs and shocks.
Here are a few pics that you asked for......The car with it's ride height set.
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That's helpful!
So the good news is, all of your UCA mounts look good.
The bad news is, that's not ride height. You've got several inches of air above the front wheels and probably 6 or more above the rears. Is that first picture of the UCA at ride height? Because it's sitting on the upper bump stop there.
I seriously doubt that's where you want the car at final ride height. And realistically, that's not where it's going to be fully assembled either.
The pic of the car is how it sits after adjusting ride height as per FSM (bottom of BJ 8 3/4 from floor and bottom of blade 10 3/8 from floor). The car does have small wheels 205 70 14's and 245 60 14's and 200lbs plus a spare in the trunk.
The pic of the control arm is at full drop with the car on the hoist. I'll take a pic of control arm at riding height.
I just don't understands why both sides have such different camber measurements.
If you have a frame shop that is local you may be able to beg, borrow or buy a copy of the measuring specs for your car. Or possibly someone has them on this site or somewhere else on the net.
You need to establish a datum line down the center of the car front to back. I would use more than just the frame rails at one point of reference to establish this. Then measure from the datum line out to the lower ball joint.
I found this in a quick search. Not sure what year your car is. This should give you the idea anyway.
Google Image Result for https://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachments/fb_img_1533391331895-jpg.1715207114/
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