Front suspension options

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Furious65

C-body Guy
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Ok, what front suspension options are possible (not necessarily available) for our A-bodies? I know there is various forms of the factory suspension from bone stock to tubular control arms w/coilover conversions. Then, there is Magnum Force and the HDK bolt-in K-members with their aftermarket suspension.

I would love more room for headers, oil pan, and starter RnR by ditching the torsion bars and rear steer linkage but I don't have an extra $2500+ for the HDK option. Are there any other options? Anyone tried something from another vehicle adapted to work on an A-body?
 
Gerst Suspensions is another option

Gerstsuspensions.com
 
What year A-body?

What are you intentions for the car? What specific type off perfomance and to what realistic level that you will actually utulize?

Is header clearance the main standout goal?
 
Being that A bodies are unibodies adapting another
cars chassis is much more difficult than overcoming
the header clearance or cost of the available kits for most builders.
Then there is the bucks down hands on type guys that prove everybody wrong.
If I was to have a go at sidestepping the cost and
header space issues normally accociated with an early A I would be looking for a low cost donor A100 straight axle leaf setup. Guys have done it this way
since the early 60s. Problem solved. Information is
out there if you dig a bit.
 
Gerst Suspensions is another option

Gerstsuspensions.com
Still in the way too expensive category but, thanks, I didn't know about them.

What year A-body?

What are you intentions for the car? What specific type off perfomance and to what realistic level that you will actually utulize?

Is header clearance the main standout goal?
Standard '67-'72 A-body. In particular, my '68 Cuda. I have no problem cutting, welding, and modifying anything on this car. True daily driver. Just looking for affordable options for a car that would get blasted down the 1/8 or 1/4 once or twice a year, do a lot of car shows and cruises, and maybe even try an auto x at some point. No, I'm not looking for whats best to do drag racing or auto x but something that could handle both just like the stock suspension can yet have better ground clearance and easier to work on.

We all know than a standard A-body with a SB sucks header-wise with horrible ground clearance, almost or completely captured starters, and clearance issues with P/S gearbox and steering linkage. Plus, gearboxes are no match for modern R&P steering. Then there is the weight of all that old torsion bar/gearbox stuff.

I've even been looking at possibly adapting the front suspension from something else to work. One I have been interested in is the '03-'04 Ford Crown Vic front suspension. It is used by a lot of the custom truck/hot rod guys and has proven pretty reliable, has huge brakes, shares the Mopar 4.5" bolt pattern, has power R&P steering all mounted on an aluminum crossmember, and can be had fairly cheap from just about any junkyard. For an A-body it would need to be shortened some but that isn't as hard to do as some think.

Eh, like I said, looking for options and just spitballing right now.
 
Still in the way too expensive category but, thanks, I didn't know about them.


Standard '67-'72 A-body. In particular, my '68 Cuda. I have no problem cutting, welding, and modifying anything on this car. True daily driver. Just looking for affordable options for a car that would get blasted down the 1/8 or 1/4 once or twice a year, do a lot of car shows and cruises, and maybe even try an auto x at some point. No, I'm not looking for whats best to do drag racing or auto x but something that could handle both just like the stock suspension can yet have better ground clearance and easier to work on.

We all know than a standard A-body with a SB sucks header-wise with horrible ground clearance, almost or completely captured starters, and clearance issues with P/S gearbox and steering linkage. Plus, gearboxes are no match for modern R&P steering. Then there is the weight of all that old torsion bar/gearbox stuff.

I've even been looking at possibly adapting the front suspension from something else to work. One I have been interested in is the '03-'04 Ford Crown Vic front suspension. It is used by a lot of the custom truck/hot rod guys and has proven pretty reliable, has huge brakes, shares the Mopar 4.5" bolt pattern, has power R&P steering all mounted on an aluminum crossmember, and can be had fairly cheap from just about any junkyard. For an A-body it would need to be shortened some but that isn't as hard to do as some think.

Eh, like I said, looking for options and just spitballing right now.


Honestly, for what you're wanting, torsion bars truly are the only way to go.

Trying to swap in a suspension from another car is going to result in a lot money and you're not gonna have the correct geometry. There's a lot more involved than simply cutting out from a crown vic and then welding it into an A body. The reason kits like HDK, Gerst, RMS cost what they do is in part due to the time and research and ultimately trial and error. I looked into building my own and cost in materials alone was going be over 1200 bucks.

For the purposes you've laid out, the best way is the Torion bars. Upgrade the control arms, shocks, bushings and even the bars and it'll handle just fine. You're not gonna have a rack and pinion but you can get a good steering box and be good enough.

I'm gonna tell you this, no matter which way you go, youre gonna be flirting with 2 grand or more, there's no way around it. Which is why I went GTS, because it was only a couple hundred more by the time I got done adding up th costs for stock replacement stuff and upgrades.
 
Rebuilding the stock a body suspension with 73 up parts is about as cheap as it gets.
Will work well for street, autocross or drag racing to some degree. But best if you choose one of the three and tailor pick the parts to suit. There really is no such thing as one size fits all without taking from one to improve in another venue.
 
Honestly, for what you're wanting, torsion bars truly are the only way to go.

Trying to swap in a suspension from another car is going to result in a lot money and you're not gonna have the correct geometry. There's a lot more involved than simply cutting out from a crown vic and then welding it into an A body. The reason kits like HDK, Gerst, RMS cost what they do is in part due to the time and research and ultimately trial and error. I looked into building my own and cost in materials alone was going be over 1200 bucks.

For the purposes you've laid out, the best way is the Torion bars. Upgrade the control arms, shocks, bushings and even the bars and it'll handle just fine. You're not gonna have a rack and pinion but you can get a good steering box and be good enough.

I'm gonna tell you this, no matter which way you go, youre gonna be flirting with 2 grand or more, there's no way around it. Which is why I went GTS, because it was only a couple hundred more by the time I got done adding up th costs for stock replacement stuff and upgrades.
I take it you're not familiar with the '03-'04 Crown Vic front suspension? It would almost be like bolting in a HDK, Magnum Force, or other aftermarket suspension. Yes, some mods would need to be made but nothing that's going to cost more than $1000-1200 for the whole thing. Steering geometry wouldn't be an issue as the crossmember maintains all the critical points except the upper control arm mounts. However, that is easy enough to make right. Pic below of the '03 Crown Vic type front suspension.

CrownVic002.jpg


BTW, the car currently has a full rebuild kit, heavier T-bars, and a SSBC front disc conversion but I want better.
 
Have you compared the track width between the two.
A crown Vic engine should bolt right over that.
 
If you could section the Crown Vic to get your track width right, and use a shorter rack, that might be your cheapest option. I'm using the HDK Coilover conversion for stock steering and k frame. I understand how that may not be a good option for you if you want rid of the rear steer. If I ever find the right 57 Dodge pickup.....the Crown Vic WILL be my front suspension choice! Good luck.
 
If you would buy a quality pair of headers, you would have NONE of the concerns you have.
 
Have you compared the track width between the two.
A crown Vic engine should bolt right over that.
Track width is too wide in it's stock form. Like JD mentions below, sectioning the crossmember, and shortening the rack, would both be necessary along with minimum 17" wheels. No Ford engine going in. However, a 200R4 trans probably will eventually!

If you could section the Crown Vic to get your track width right, and use a shorter rack, that might be your cheapest option. I'm using the HDK Coilover conversion for stock steering and k frame. I understand how that may not be a good option for you if you want rid of the rear steer. If I ever find the right 57 Dodge pickup.....the Crown Vic WILL be my front suspension choice! Good luck.
Sectioning and shortening. That was what I was thinking. Someone over at the Jalopy Journal has done it with success so I know it can be done. BTW, thanks for the positive response!
 
Could a rear sump truck pan clear the cross member without moving the engine into the firewall?
 
I take it you're not familiar with the '03-'04 Crown Vic front suspension? It would almost be like bolting in a HDK, Magnum Force, or other aftermarket suspension. Yes, some mods would need to be made but nothing that's going to cost more than $1000-1200 for the whole thing. Steering geometry wouldn't be an issue as the crossmember maintains all the critical points except the upper control arm mounts. However, that is easy enough to make right. Pic below of the '03 Crown Vic type front suspension.

CrownVic002.jpg


BTW, the car currently has a full rebuild kit, heavier T-bars, and a SSBC front disc conversion but I want better.
I am familiar with it. But admittedly I've not tried stuffing one into an A body. Will it fit, yeah probably with some work. Will it improve on what you have? That's the biggest question. If you do try this, I wish you luck and will follow as my curiousity is intrigued
 
Could a rear sump truck pan clear the cross member without moving the engine into the firewall?
Not sure at this point. Need to pick one up and do some measuring.

I am familiar with it. But admittedly I've not tried stuffing one into an A body. Will it fit, yeah probably with some work. Will it improve on what you have? That's the biggest question. If you do try this, I wish you luck and will follow as my curiousity is intrigued
Thank you. If I do decide to proceed I will update the forum.
 
Simple, use the stock suspension and don't use headers. Unless you are making well over 450hp I would not bother with any headers except shorties ..., spend the money you save on something worth while like EFI or better cylinder heads.
 
Not sure at this point. Need to pick one up and do some measuring.


Thank you. If I do decide to proceed I will update the forum.


Also....keep in mind that cutting and shortening the crown vic one will alter the geometry.
 
The transverse torsion bar frt suspensions were a popular streetrod type suspension graft in the past.
They came in different widths also. The f body should be close.
Not sure it would be worth the effort but....
I have seen them put under vintage pickups and
50s and older cars.
Probably won't handle any better than a stock a body though.
 
Also....keep in mind that cutting and shortening the crown vic one will alter the geometry.
How so? All ackermann angles and such would remain unchanged.

The transverse torsion bar frt suspensions were a popular streetrod type suspension graft in the past.
They came in different widths also. The f body should be close.
Not sure it would be worth the effort but....
I have seen them put under vintage pickups and
50s and older cars.
Probably won't handle any better than a stock a body though.
Yeah, I knew of that setup and agree, not worth it for no gain.
 
How so? All ackermann angles and such would remain unchanged.


Yeah, I knew of that setup and agree, not worth it for no gain.


You're gonna have to alter the rack as well or find a shorter one.
 
There's a reason no one has put a Crown Vic front end in an A-body. Yes, the swap has been around for awhile with hot rods and trucks. Typically, those applications all leave the Crown Vic suspension cradle intact. The reason for that is the crown vic cradle is aluminum. Cast aluminum. Sectioning and narrowing it is not something that the home welder should take on. Yes, it can be done, there are places that repair cast aluminum rims and motorcycle frames. But it's not an "enthusiast" level project. You should enlist an expert welder for that. As someone that has successfully TIG welded cast aluminum before, I wouldn't want to make that particular modification because of the loads involved. Obviously there's a first time for everything, but the Crown Vic suspension cradle swap has been around for a pretty long time. Long enough that guys like Denny and Gerst would have definitely had that option available to them. It wouldn't be a bad business model to take Crown Vic cradles, modify them, and sell them for use on Mopars. It would be a pretty simple gig once you had the jig set up and a welder that wanted to do it. And yet, multiple different company's have instead chosen to completely fabricate their own suspension.

Narrowing the track width will effect how the suspension handles. By narrowing the track you're decreasing the suspensions roll stability, you'll get more weight transfer during cornering. That will require stiffer springs and larger roll bars than a standard set up. The geometry remains pretty much intact, but it won't handle exactly the same as an unmodified set up.

And again, you're adding a crossmember that loads all of the suspension forces into the chassis vertically, just like the coilover conversions currently out there. The Mopar unibody chassis was not intended to be loaded that way, it carries all of its suspension loads horizontally in the K frame and torsion bar crossmember. There's very little vertical stiffness in the front end, even cars with the stock torsion bar set up have a ton of flex in the front. You would still need to significantly stiffen the front end of the car to run the Crown Vic suspension. And, how much better are the suspension numbers for the Crown Vic? Does it have better camber gain or less bump steer than a properly set up torsion bar system? Or is it just another way to convert to a rack and coilovers? Stock Crown Vic brakes are only 12", you can bolt on a set of 11.75" rotors using 73+ A or FMJ spindles and a set of the larger caliper brackets, which Dr. Diff sells for $90. If you go bigger, then you're buying an aftermarket brake kit anyway. Yeah maybe the Crown Vic aftermarket kits are a little cheaper, but you have to completely change over the suspension with significant custom modifications to even make it possible.

By the time you buy the crown vic suspension, modify the cradle, modify the A-body chassis to accept the crown vic cradle, re-work the steering column, sort out what to do for a steering rack, fabricate new engine mounts, figure out what fits for headers and oil pans (or if you'll have to go custom), and get the thing generally sorted you'll have at least as much money into it as properly setting up a torsion bar system, or buying an HDK or GST set up. Not to mention the time it will take to do all of that. Even if you did all the work yourself and came upon the Crown Vic suspension for super cheap I don't think you'd end up money ahead.
 
There's a reason no one has put a Crown Vic front end in an A-body. Yes, the swap has been around for awhile with hot rods and trucks. Typically, those applications all leave the Crown Vic suspension cradle intact. The reason for that is the crown vic cradle is aluminum. Cast aluminum. Sectioning and narrowing it is not something that the home welder should take on. Yes, it can be done, there are places that repair cast aluminum rims and motorcycle frames. But it's not an "enthusiast" level project. You should enlist an expert welder for that. As someone that has successfully TIG welded cast aluminum before, I wouldn't want to make that particular modification because of the loads involved. Obviously there's a first time for everything, but the Crown Vic suspension cradle swap has been around for a pretty long time. Long enough that guys like Denny and Gerst would have definitely had that option available to them. It wouldn't be a bad business model to take Crown Vic cradles, modify them, and sell them for use on Mopars. It would be a pretty simple gig once you had the jig set up and a welder that wanted to do it. And yet, multiple different company's have instead chosen to completely fabricate their own suspension.

Narrowing the track width will effect how the suspension handles. By narrowing the track you're decreasing the suspensions roll stability, you'll get more weight transfer during cornering. That will require stiffer springs and larger roll bars than a standard set up. The geometry remains pretty much intact, but it won't handle exactly the same as an unmodified set up.

And again, you're adding a crossmember that loads all of the suspension forces into the chassis vertically, just like the coilover conversions currently out there. The Mopar unibody chassis was not intended to be loaded that way, it carries all of its suspension loads horizontally in the K frame and torsion bar crossmember. There's very little vertical stiffness in the front end, even cars with the stock torsion bar set up have a ton of flex in the front. You would still need to significantly stiffen the front end of the car to run the Crown Vic suspension. And, how much better are the suspension numbers for the Crown Vic? Does it have better camber gain or less bump steer than a properly set up torsion bar system? Or is it just another way to convert to a rack and coilovers? Stock Crown Vic brakes are only 12", you can bolt on a set of 11.75" rotors using 73+ A or FMJ spindles and a set of the larger caliper brackets, which Dr. Diff sells for $90. If you go bigger, then you're buying an aftermarket brake kit anyway. Yeah maybe the Crown Vic aftermarket kits are a little cheaper, but you have to completely change over the suspension with significant custom modifications to even make it possible.

By the time you buy the crown vic suspension, modify the cradle, modify the A-body chassis to accept the crown vic cradle, re-work the steering column, sort out what to do for a steering rack, fabricate new engine mounts, figure out what fits for headers and oil pans (or if you'll have to go custom), and get the thing generally sorted you'll have at least as much money into it as properly setting up a torsion bar system, or buying an HDK or GST set up. Not to mention the time it will take to do all of that. Even if you did all the work yourself and came upon the Crown Vic suspension for super cheap I don't think you'd end up money ahead.
I agree with every word of this post 100 percent.
 
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