Front suspension options

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IMO, learning how to fab your own headers and buy a Borgeson P/S box is way cheaper than what I'm all seeing here.
 
I like the tubular k-members a lot, and will probably go that route one day. But I don't see any reason to completely convert the front end. I have Dougs headers that took a little massaging to give me more clearance, am running a mini starter, shorty oil filter, and ujoint steering coupler, and feel fine with everything. Eventually I will go the tubular aarm route, but am not sure why you feel the need to do so much for such small issues.

More power too you, but reinventing the wheel is rarely pragmatic.

Now, the rear suspension is another topic all together...
 
dukeboy_318 said:
You're gonna have to alter the rack as well or find a shorter one.
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Had already figured that as I mentioned many times already.

72bluNblu said:
There's a reason no one has put a Crown Vic front end in an A-body. Yes, the swap has been around for awhile with hot rods and trucks. Typically, those applications all leave the Crown Vic suspension cradle intact. The reason for that is the crown vic cradle is aluminum. Cast aluminum. Sectioning and narrowing it is not something that the home welder should take on. Yes, it can be done, there are places that repair cast aluminum rims and motorcycle frames. But it's not an "enthusiast" level project. You should enlist an expert welder for that. As someone that has successfully TIG welded cast aluminum before, I wouldn't want to make that particular modification because of the loads involved. Obviously there's a first time for everything, but the Crown Vic suspension cradle swap has been around for a pretty long time. Long enough that guys like Denny and Gerst would have definitely had that option available to them. It wouldn't be a bad business model to take Crown Vic cradles, modify them, and sell them for use on Mopars. It would be a pretty simple gig once you had the jig set up and a welder that wanted to do it. And yet, multiple different company's have instead chosen to completely fabricate their own suspension.
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Like I said earlier, it has been done successfully before. As for welding it, of course I would have a pro do it as I have zero TIG experience. As for why I believe Gerst and Denny wouldn't even consider the Crown Vic cradle is the fact there is no way to make it a bolt in deal without some pretty significant alterations to the A-body chassis. I mean, seriously, how many of you would cut their A-bodys frame and inner fenders along with welding in the necessary reinforcements?

72bluNblu said:
Narrowing the track width will effect how the suspension handles. By narrowing the track you're decreasing the suspensions roll stability, you'll get more weight transfer during cornering. That will require stiffer springs and larger roll bars than a standard set up. The geometry remains pretty much intact, but it won't handle exactly the same as an unmodified set up.
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Track width would be narrowed down to match the stock A-body spec. That's 1.9" per side (3.8" total). While it would have less roll stability than a stock width CF suspension, can you say it would be less than the Mopar suspension it would be replacing? Stiffer springs shouldn't be a problem. I think the stock springs would at least get it in the ball park considering they're meant for a 4000+ lb CV and not a 3000-3500 lb A-body.

72bluNblu said:
And again, you're adding a crossmember that loads all of the suspension forces into the chassis vertically, just like the coilover conversions currently out there. The Mopar unibody chassis was not intended to be loaded that way, it carries all of its suspension loads horizontally in the K frame and torsion bar crossmember. There's very little vertical stiffness in the front end, even cars with the stock torsion bar set up have a ton of flex in the front. You would still need to significantly stiffen the front end of the car to run the Crown Vic suspension. And, how much better are the suspension numbers for the Crown Vic? Does it have better camber gain or less bump steer than a properly set up torsion bar system? Or is it just another way to convert to a rack and coilovers? Stock Crown Vic brakes are only 12", you can bolt on a set of 11.75" rotors using 73+ A or FMJ spindles and a set of the larger caliper brackets, which Dr. Diff sells for $90. If you go bigger, then you're buying an aftermarket brake kit anyway. Yeah maybe the Crown Vic aftermarket kits are a little cheaper, but you have to completely change over the suspension with significant custom modifications to even make it possible.
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I'm not seeing how the load changes that much from horizontal to vertical. With the same spring rates (torsion vs coil), and the same fulcrum point, and plane of motion, the front end should see the same loads as long as the coil spring is not being directly supported by the inner fender itself. The CV suspension loads everything right on the frame rail and not the inner fenders. I really would like to see some actual mathematical calculations that show there is a difference. Regardless, I was already planning to stiffen the entire chassis no matter what suspension I run so I guess it's a moot point.

The big advantage to the CV brakes (and the rest of the front end) is that I can literally go to any auto parts store and find replacement parts in stock locally. In addition, there are quite a few more rotor and pad options available for it over anything Mopar. BTW, I already have SSBC disc conversion for it but the replacement parts for it cannot be sourced locally at all. Remember, this would be a daily driver so parts availability is a concern.

72bluNblu said:
By the time you buy the crown vic suspension, modify the cradle, modify the A-body chassis to accept the crown vic cradle, re-work the steering column, sort out what to do for a steering rack, fabricate new engine mounts, figure out what fits for headers and oil pans (or if you'll have to go custom), and get the thing generally sorted you'll have at least as much money into it as properly setting up a torsion bar system, or buying an HDK or GST set up. Not to mention the time it will take to do all of that. Even if you did all the work yourself and came upon the Crown Vic suspension for super cheap I don't think you'd end up money ahead.
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Already have a properly setup torsion bar suspension with heavier bars, rebuilt front end, Addco 1-1/8" sway bar, and SSBC disc conversion. It could be better but it is decent.

Now, for the cost side, there is no way it would cost anywhere near $3000 or more. That's just ridiculous to even think it would be near the cost of a HDK or Gerst setup. I can see that you're doing your best to discourage me from this path. That's cool. Never said I was going this way. It was just something I was spitballing and is purely academic at this point. While I do think the CV suspension does fit the bill in some respects, a lot more research in to it would be necessary before I would actually move forward with it. I was really hoping this thread would enlighten me to some other possibilities. I guess there really isn't any unless I come up with something on my own.

72Valiant4Door said:
I like the tubular k-members a lot, and will probably go that route one day. But I don't see any reason to completely convert the front end. I have Dougs headers that took a little massaging to give me more clearance, am running a mini starter, shorty oil filter, and ujoint steering coupler, and feel fine with everything. Eventually I will go the tubular aarm route, but am not sure why you feel the need to do so much for such small issues.

More power too you, but reinventing the wheel is rarely pragmatic.
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Eh, just would like things to be better. That's all. What's wrong with that? If the stock suspension was so great people like Denny, Gerst, etc. wouldn't be in business selling complete upgrades for it now would they? Lastly, I just like to think outside the box and of other possibilities. There is no harm in that!
 
Furious65 said:
Had already figured that as I mentioned many times already.


Like I said earlier, it has been done successfully before. As for welding it, of course I would have a pro do it as I have zero TIG experience. As for why I believe Gerst and Denny wouldn't even consider the Crown Vic cradle is the fact there is no way to make it a bolt in deal without some pretty significant alterations to the A-body chassis. I mean, seriously, how many of you would cut their A-bodys frame and inner fenders along with welding in the necessary reinforcements?


Track width would be narrowed down to match the stock A-body spec. That's 1.9" per side (3.8" total). While it would have less roll stability than a stock width CF suspension, can you say it would be less than the Mopar suspension it would be replacing? Stiffer springs shouldn't be a problem. I think the stock springs would at least get it in the ball park considering they're meant for a 4000+ lb CV and not a 3000-3500 lb A-body.


I'm not seeing how the load changes that much from horizontal to vertical. With the same spring rates (torsion vs coil), and the same fulcrum point, and plane of motion, the front end should see the same loads as long as the coil spring is not being directly supported by the inner fender itself. The CV suspension loads everything right on the frame rail and not the inner fenders. I really would like to see some actual mathematical calculations that show there is a difference. Regardless, I was already planning to stiffen the entire chassis no matter what suspension I run so I guess it's a moot point.

The big advantage to the CV brakes (and the rest of the front end) is that I can literally go to any auto parts store and find replacement parts in stock locally. In addition, there are quite a few more rotor and pad options available for it over anything Mopar. BTW, I already have SSBC disc conversion for it but the replacement parts for it cannot be sourced locally at all. Remember, this would be a daily driver so parts availability is a concern.


Already have a properly setup torsion bar suspension with heavier bars, rebuilt front end, Addco 1-1/8" sway bar, and SSBC disc conversion. It could be better but it is decent.

Now, for the cost side, there is no way it would cost anywhere near $3000 or more. That's just ridiculous to even think it would be near the cost of a HDK or Gerst setup. I can see that you're doing your best to discourage me from this path. That's cool. Never said I was going this way. It was just something I was spitballing and is purely academic at this point. While I do think the CV suspension does fit the bill in some respects, a lot more research in to it would be necessary before I would actually move forward with it. I was really hoping this thread would enlighten me to some other possibilities. I guess there really isn't any unless I come up with something on my own.


Eh, just would like things to be better. That's all. What's wrong with that? If the stock suspension was so great people like Denny, Gerst, etc. wouldn't be in business selling complete upgrades for it now would they? Lastly, I just like to think outside the box and of other possibilities. There is no harm in that!
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Here's the thing......is a crown vic front suspension truly a better handling suspension or are you just guessing?

Do you know how much a welder is going to charge you to TIG weld that up? I was quoted over a grand to have my 4 link welded in professionally by 4 different shops here in town. Aluminum would cost even more I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box. Nobody is saying that. But sometimes outside the box isn't better. And sometimes it's even worse.

Here's a few questions I haven't seen an answer too. What shocks are you running, what tires, and lastly, what's your rear suspension set up?

Also, let's say you did this, let's add up the cost

You said 1200 for a CV front suspension

1200
Say 500 to 1000 to cut and weld it professionally

Now we're at

1700 to 2200

Now you have to source a rack, powersteering racks are bout 300 new roughly

So now we're at 2000 to 2500

Now assuming you need new or stiffer springs, not entirely sure what aftermarket springs for a vic run, but most are around a 150 a pop, so there's 300.

Now we're at 2300 to 2800.

Add in another hundred for the custom length steering column to rack shaft,

Now 2400 to 2900.

And that's not counting new brake stuff or the time, labor or materials to cut your A Body.

A base gts is right at 3k and installs in under an hour......

No one is trying to tell you you're wrong for outside the box thinking. There's just several of us who've tried numerous things like this or thought of them. I , and apparently a few others agree, don't think you realize the sheer cost this is going to be.
 
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dukeboy_318 said:
Here's the thing......is a crown vic front suspension truly a better handling suspension or are you just guessing?

Do you know how much a welder is going to charge you to TIG weld that up? I was quoted over a grand to have my 4 link welded in professionally by 4 different shops here in town. Aluminum would cost even more I'm sure.

Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box. Nobody is saying that. But sometimes outside the box isn't better. And sometimes it's even worse.

Here's a few questions I haven't seen an answer too. What shocks are you running, what tires, and lastly, what's your rear suspension set up?
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No, have never even thought about whether the CV suspension is better or worse. Like I said, just throwing it out there, thinking out loud so to speak!

I guess it probably helps that I know a few professional TIG guys! :D

Shocks currently are Edelbrock IAS front and rear. Tires are crappy BFG's on 15" steel rims. Plan on moving up to 17" or 18" with better quality rubber. Rear has Mopar XHD leaf springs, Strange Engineering S60 Dana w/3.73 Trac Loc, and Addco 7/8" sway bar.
 
Furious65 said:
No, have never even thought about whether the CV suspension is better or worse. Like I said, just throwing it out there, thinking out loud so to speak!

I guess it probably helps that I know a few professional TIG guys! :D

Shocks currently are Edelbrock IAS front and rear. Tires are crappy BFG's on 15" steel rims. Plan on moving up to 17" or 18" with better quality rubber. Rear has Mopar XHD leaf springs, Strange Engineering S60 Dana w/3.73 Trac Loc, and Addco 7/8" sway bar.
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I'd ditch those shocks and get you some that are dual adjustable or go Bilsteins. Also, tire compound matters a TON. Before you go butchering a car, try different tires
 
I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just trying to realistic. If you want to do all of that custom fabrication, I would actually love to see it. Seriously, if it worked better I'd be willing to look into it myself. All I'm trying to do is point out that the amount of work necessary to make a Crown Vic suspension fit and work properly on an A-body will far exceed what I think you've planned for. If it was an easy, low cost affair people would already be doing it. The welder alone will charge you over $500, and that's if he's in a BIG hurry and you did all of the jig work. If the welder has to, or insists on, jigging the cradle (as he should if he's worth his salt) I bet the welding costs will easily be over $1k. Welders are not cheap, TIG welding is not fast, and welding cast aluminum is not something you want to trust to just anyone.

As for the stock suspension, it is great. The fastest, track proven handling mopars around right now all run torsion bars. The Hotchkis Taxi, a freaking 4 door Satellite, laps faster than the 2012 3 series BMW's on Tire Rack's test course when both are driven by Tire Rack's test driver. So, how is the stock system inadequate?

Why are there so many coilover conversions being made? There's a few reasons. First, until the last 3 or 4 years, there has been very little in the way of aftermarket support for upgrading the torsion bar suspension. That's not the case anymore, with Hotchkis and QA1 making all kinds of stuff, in addition to the parts that were available before from places like Firm Feel, not to mention all the newer start ups making great stuff like Bergman Auto Craft. Second, most people don't understand how a torsion bar suspension works. It's really that simple, people don't get it, so they replace it. Torsion bars are just springs, so are coilovers, there's no magic. Third, folks assume that it's easier to just bolt on a complete replacement than fix the stock system, which usually is abysmal because of 40+ years of wear and being set up for bias plys to begin with. They assume if it's that bad it's not worth saving, when in truth it just needs a few relatively minor upgrades. Fourth, there's enough late model engine conversions and such being done now that in some cases the torsion bars really are a problem in the real estate department, and if you can buy a new crossmember already set up for a GenIII hemi it starts to make sense. And finally, there's enough people that own these cars who have no mechanical inclination at all, but posses large wallets, that just go out and buy the shiniest all in one conversion that money can buy because it "must be better".

As for the chassis, you're not considering how the stock suspension really carries and loads the chassis. All of the vertical suspension motion is translated into rotational force by the lower control arm, which carries all of the load. Yes, the suspension moves up and down, but the force is not carried vertically. It's translated into rotational force, and that's what the crossmember and K frame "see". The coilover suspension and crown vic suspension translates the suspension force into vertical force. It puts the load on the LCA and the upper coilover mount. Even if those are included in the package, like with the Crown vic and a the better coilover conversions, that still stresses the frame rails differently than the rotational force applied by the torsion bars. Even with the torsion bars, the front frame rails flap about and should be reinforced. With the crown vic or coilover set ups, it MUST be reinforced.

As for actual math, good luck. To actually produce something that would mean something you'd need a full structural analysis of the chassis, and then do it again for each system including your one off Crown Vic set up. I've done them before, but the software and computing power necessary would require someone that's actually in the engineering industry.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
I'd ditch those shocks and get you some that are dual adjustable or go Bilsteins. Also, tire compound matters a TON. Before you go butchering a car, try different tires
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Oh, I know they aren't the best shocks but they're ok for a daily driver. Will definitely upgrade them when they are ready for replacement. Remember, I'm not out to build a full drag or auto x car. Just a really nice driver. I'm sure probably just going to some 18's and some Nitto 555's would totally change things.

The only thing I really don't like on the Mopar front end is the steering gear. IMO, standard or quick ratio, power or manual, they suck, period. Eh, guess I'll just live with it. However, thanks for the awesome feedback and discussion!
 
Furious65 said:
Oh, I know they aren't the best shocks but they're ok for a daily driver. Will definitely upgrade them when they are ready for replacement. Remember, I'm not out to build a full drag or auto x car. Just a really nice driver. I'm sure probably just going to some 18's and some Nitto 555's would totally change things.

The only thing I really don't like on the Mopar front end is the steering gear. IMO, standard or quick ratio, power or manual, they suck, period. Eh, guess I'll just live with it. However, thanks for the awesome feedback and discussion!
Click to expand...


Put a cheap Mustang II front clip in it if you want something different, you can get them for $1500 from places like Fab Quest and you could sell the stock front clip and get some money back....I would do that before the CV front.
 
67autocross said:
Put a cheap Mustang II front clip in it if you want something different, you can get them for $1500 from places like Fab Quest and you could sell the stock front clip and get some money back....I would do that before the CV front.
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I thought the aftermarket Mustang II suspensions weren't that good on a daily driver? I've been out of car scene for quite a few years so maybe things have changed?
 
Furious65 said:
I thought the aftermarket Mustang II suspensions weren't that good on a daily driver? I've been out of car scene for quite a few years so maybe things have changed?
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Depends on who's kit you're talking bout
 
Furious65 said:
Oh, I know they aren't the best shocks but they're ok for a daily driver. Will definitely upgrade them when they are ready for replacement. Remember, I'm not out to build a full drag or auto x car. Just a really nice driver. I'm sure probably just going to some 18's and some Nitto 555's would totally change things.

The only thing I really don't like on the Mopar front end is the steering gear. IMO, standard or quick ratio, power or manual, they suck, period. Eh, guess I'll just live with it. However, thanks for the awesome feedback and discussion!
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In this case, if that's all you're after, it'd be a complete waste to try the cv set up.

Have you actually tried one of the fast ratio boxes or the Borgeson unit?
 
Furious65 said:
Had already figured that as I mentioned many times already.


Like I said earlier, it has been done successfully before. As for welding it, of course I would have a pro do it as I have zero TIG experience. As for why I believe Gerst and Denny wouldn't even consider the Crown Vic cradle is the fact there is no way to make it a bolt in deal without some pretty significant alterations to the A-body chassis. I mean, seriously, how many of you would cut their A-bodys frame and inner fenders along with welding in the necessary reinforcements?


Track width would be narrowed down to match the stock A-body spec. That's 1.9" per side (3.8" total). While it would have less roll stability than a stock width CF suspension, can you say it would be less than the Mopar suspension it would be replacing? Stiffer springs shouldn't be a problem. I think the stock springs would at least get it in the ball park considering they're meant for a 4000+ lb CV and not a 3000-3500 lb A-body.


I'm not seeing how the load changes that much from horizontal to vertical. With the same spring rates (torsion vs coil), and the same fulcrum point, and plane of motion, the front end should see the same loads as long as the coil spring is not being directly supported by the inner fender itself. The CV suspension loads everything right on the frame rail and not the inner fenders. I really would like to see some actual mathematical calculations that show there is a difference. Regardless, I was already planning to stiffen the entire chassis no matter what suspension I run so I guess it's a moot point.

The big advantage to the CV brakes (and the rest of the front end) is that I can literally go to any auto parts store and find replacement parts in stock locally. In addition, there are quite a few more rotor and pad options available for it over anything Mopar. BTW, I already have SSBC disc conversion for it but the replacement parts for it cannot be sourced locally at all. Remember, this would be a daily driver so parts availability is a concern.


Already have a properly setup torsion bar suspension with heavier bars, rebuilt front end, Addco 1-1/8" sway bar, and SSBC disc conversion. It could be better but it is decent.

Now, for the cost side, there is no way it would cost anywhere near $3000 or more. That's just ridiculous to even think it would be near the cost of a HDK or Gerst setup. I can see that you're doing your best to discourage me from this path. That's cool. Never said I was going this way. It was just something I was spitballing and is purely academic at this point. While I do think the CV suspension does fit the bill in some respects, a lot more research in to it would be necessary before I would actually move forward with it. I was really hoping this thread would enlighten me to some other possibilities. I guess there really isn't any unless I come up with something on my own.


Eh, just would like things to be better. That's all. What's wrong with that? If the stock suspension was so great people like Denny, Gerst, etc. wouldn't be in business selling complete upgrades for it now would they? Lastly, I just like to think outside the box and of other possibilities. There is no harm in that!
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BUSINESSES like denny are following money not perfection

you own a mopar abody, if you want to play dress up, put your body on a corvette frame or something else. you can do whatever you want, money and talent is the limit.
 
dukeboy_318 said:
In this case, if that's all you're after, it'd be a complete waste to try the cv set up.

Have you actually tried one of the fast ratio boxes or the Borgeson unit?
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Haven't tried a fast ratio P/S box. Not familiar with the Borgeson unit. I've tried the manual fast ratio and that sucked in city driving.
 
Furious65 said:
Haven't tried a fast ratio P/S box. Not familiar with the Borgeson unit. I've tried the manual fast ratio and that sucked in city driving.
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Well I'd try the Borgeson unit before doing anything else. I've yet to hear anyone not like it.
 
Furious65 said:
I've tried the manual fast ratio and that sucked in city driving.
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Get bigger arm muscles. :D

I run a Flaming River 16:1 manual box with 275/35/18's up front on my Duster. It's not fun to parallel park, but it definitely doesn't suck.
 
ssba said:
Being that A bodies are unibodies adapting another
cars chassis is much more difficult than overcoming
the header clearance or cost of the available kits for most builders.
Then there is the bucks down hands on type guys that prove everybody wrong.
If I was to have a go at sidestepping the cost and
header space issues normally accociated with an early A I would be looking for a low cost donor A100 straight axle leaf setup. Guys have done it this way
since the early 60s. Problem solved. Information is
out there if you dig a bit.
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I now see where you are coming from.....
The Real Angry Grandpa? This 1974 Dodge Dart Is A Straight-Axle Freak Show!
 
Yeah.... but.... I believe the stock CV IFS cradle is 35 3/4" between the shock towers. If 4 3/4" is cut from the center (from the website), that makes it around 31" between the towers. isn't that TOO narrow to fit the A body without surgery on the front frame rails?

Greg

Crown_Vic4.jpg
 
Greg55_99 said:
Yeah.... but.... I believe the stock CV IFS cradle is 35 3/4" between the shock towers. If 4 3/4" is cut from the center (from the website), that makes it around 31" between the towers. isn't that TOO narrow to fit the A body without surgery on the front frame rails?
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Yes, the one they offer is too narrow.
 
I see you live in Tuscon. How about contacting El Polako up in Phoenix:

Product Tags Crossmember

They do Dodge Dakota cross members for various applications. Very close to an A body. VERY close.

Greg
 
Interesting idea, id like to see a measurement from the centerline on where the "frame rail" would mount, out to the wheel flange, where the wheel mounts.
 
Furious65 said:
Exactly! See, it's not $1000 to get it welded up.
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No, because they already have a jig and are doing it as a business. If you took it to a random welder to set up a custom, one off application it would. That business is banking on defraying the cost of the jig and the set up time over dozens of units.

Plus, they're using a mustang rack for steering, which is probably part of why it's narrowed that amount.

Greg55_99 said:
I see you live in Tuscon. How about contacting El Polako up in Phoenix:

Product Tags Crossmember

They do Dodge Dakota cross members for various applications. Very close to an A body. VERY close.

Greg
Click to expand...

And why is Dodge Dakota suspension better? There's probably less aftermarket support for a good handling Dakota than there is for an A body. And having owned a Dakota, it's not like they handle spectacular to begin with.
 
The bigger question, is a CV front suspension or a CV entirely for that matter , actually handle better than a well tuned A Body? I drove one for 7 years at work, I don't recall anything special bout them and we did EVOC courses and high speed pursuits with them....
 
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