What’s sad is you don’t see what an idiot you are.
If you really believe there is no load on the spring when the tires are off the ground you can’t be helped.
Front Suspension refurb
- Thread starter Captainkirk
- Start date
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What’s sad is you don’t see what an idiot you are.
If you really believe there is no load on the spring when the tires are off the ground you can’t be helped.
1- don't put words in my mouth. i didn't say a damn thing about that or to you.
2- i am smarter and more knowledgeable on this. i have i have built and raced these car competitively in classes that turn left and right. what you are proposing is categorically false in every sense of the matter. if what you say is true then critical alignment specs would change so drastically that the cars would be careening off the track. which they do not.
3- your "test" left out important, nuanced criteria. which you know and specifically excluded, so take your +1 for gamesmanship, but know that the results were (pardon the pun) "loaded". the only thing worse than an inconclusive test is a false test set up under pretext.
4- i don't stan for anybody. in fact 72blu and i don't see eye to eye on a lot of aspects of suspension and chassis building; and lord knows that turk is just insufferable-- however, i value their expertise an respect their input.
5- having the same governor? what in [insert deity of choice] name does that have to do with anything? that is wholly and entirely not part of the larger discussion here.
Steve, your vulgar ad hominem attacks and consistent need to denigrate anybody that disagrees with you only makes your argument weaker. because of this no matter how much expertise you have, you come off as wildly insecure and reek of ignorance. i can fully understand the desire for validation but in this case your need for attention paints you as a blathering old man with a vendetta again *waves hands* whatever this is.
maybe your son should start posting for you, for it seems as though somewhere along the line you lost the plot.
I am an insufferable prick. It’s from SEVEN DECADES of dealing with idiots like OMM who spew **** out that is absolutely wrong and defend it like it’s gospel.
So I say **** it and call clowns like this out.
In fact, I’ll kill another cow. Naw, **** that too. I’ll just leave it alone.
But I will say every time I go to the track I see straight garbage, especially in the stick classes. It’s sad really.
I’ve got video of a car absolutely killing the tire to death. I told the dude you MUST HAVE an adjustable clutch and an aluminum flywheel for starters. Then DA shocks and he needed to get the traction bars going downhill to stop killing the tire.
I saw him a year later and I said what did you change? He said nothing. You are the only one saying what you are saying.
I said stay slow and stupid then. I should post the video but at this point I don’t give a ****.
That’s just an example of what I see at the track. It’s a shame really how much guys spend to go slow. Or go slower than the engine and chassis are capable of.
I am a prick. It is what it is.
My ignorance and my vulgar mouth"
Newbomb Turk said:
I love it. Keep going you thief. You are exposing your ignorance. Again. And you are ******* people up with your bad advice. AGAIN.
That’s absolutely NOT the reason /6 bars are used. **** me running.
You use a LOWER SPRING RATE to get preload on the spring so it has some stored energy to help get the front of the car moving up.
You control that motion and its speed with the shocks.
You have no concept of spring rates, preload or chassis.
Moron
This whole conversation started because i posted pictures of being able to move the control arm on the pin with the torsion bar and strut rod installed.
You put yourself in by stating
What does that have to do with the bushing moving on the pin when the T-bar is unloaded. Because as stated by you all they never unload. I mention /6 bars used for constant lift on launch because stiff bars run out of lift and you confirm that . But I am still wrong. Give me a break.
The reason I said you have the same governor. Is You all usually stick together form Cal. And thats a fact.
The bottom line is the control arm is not secured forward at the bushing pin by the strut rod or the T- bar. The excuse was I'm wrong because the T-bar was not loaded and circled when I moved the control arm with a large straight screwdriver.
You just admitted it can't be true because critical alignment would make the car uncontrollable. After I showed you it moves on the pin easily. when assembled.
Like i said I thought you were smarter then that. I don't care how many cars you raced. you cannot be that smart not to see what is evident.
Call the shop and tell Steve what you think. You tell him he is making this up, Steve will tell you the same thing, Your wrong. He is the one that initially saw the movement. 5/8 to 3/4 front and back on the pin , low to reverse with the factory struts and Stabilizer hooked up . and 893-894 bars. I'lll never think of you the same . Call the shop and ask him. SK Machine | Danielsville PA or are you afraid of the answer. he is there .
Newbomb Turk said:
I love it. Keep going you thief. You are exposing your ignorance. Again. And you are ******* people up with your bad advice. AGAIN.
That’s absolutely NOT the reason /6 bars are used. **** me running.
You use a LOWER SPRING RATE to get preload on the spring so it has some stored energy to help get the front of the car moving up.
You control that motion and its speed with the shocks.
You have no concept of spring rates, preload or chassis.
Moron
This whole conversation started because i posted pictures of being able to move the control arm on the pin with the torsion bar and strut rod installed.
You put yourself in by stating
What does that have to do with the bushing moving on the pin when the T-bar is unloaded. Because as stated by you all they never unload. I mention /6 bars used for constant lift on launch because stiff bars run out of lift and you confirm that . But I am still wrong. Give me a break.
The reason I said you have the same governor. Is You all usually stick together form Cal. And thats a fact.
The bottom line is the control arm is not secured forward at the bushing pin by the strut rod or the T- bar. The excuse was I'm wrong because the T-bar was not loaded and circled when I moved the control arm with a large straight screwdriver.
You just admitted it can't be true because critical alignment would make the car uncontrollable. After I showed you it moves on the pin easily. when assembled.
Like i said I thought you were smarter then that. I don't care how many cars you raced. you cannot be that smart not to see what is evident.
Call the shop and tell Steve what you think. You tell him he is making this up, Steve will tell you the same thing, Your wrong. He is the one that initially saw the movement. 5/8 to 3/4 front and back on the pin , low to reverse with the factory struts and Stabilizer hooked up . and 893-894 bars. I'lll never think of you the same . Call the shop and ask him. SK Machine | Danielsville PA or are you afraid of the answer. he is there .
Yup, lying thieves make me say bad words. Grow up.
So your kid can’t install poly bushings and adjustable strut rides either? Thats embarrassing.
why? why would i bother calling your son? so he can take time out of his day to excuse you for your blathering incompetence on the interwebs? i imagine he must get tired fielding all the phone calls for you.
yes. yes you did. and again, your test was under false pretenses.
give you a break? you can't even keep the replies straight.
i never said that. go back and look, i'll wait.
....
i don't expect an apology, but a real man would admit he was wrong. which you are.
again, i never said any of that.
so if you wanna fact check me, you best come with receipts. therefore, no breaks for you.
evidently, you should add reading comprehension to you list of short falls. again, go back and read what i wrote. anyway, your line of reasoning is tenuous at best.
when "assembled" but not loaded. which yours were not, from your picture. talk your way around that all you want, but that's fact. you even posted the picture!
pull your head together it and *think* about it for a moment. not you nor the prussian army is moving a loaded t-bar. and that's a fact. and if you don't think the same, then you haven't taken apart a suspension recently enough that you've flat *** forgotten.
again, if this were true, every car with poly/delrin bushings would go skittering off the road or veering into oncoming traffic. that hardly makes for great sales pitch.
i don't care that you don't care. in my paradigm, your insistence of some arbitrary made up "fact" that you perceived or came to you in some fever dream, doesn't exist because, wait for it... i have first hand experience to the absolute contrary. as do many other people.
your selection bias clouds FACTS
your confirmation bias leads to straight to a lack of causation which, as we can see, you refuse to let go of.
try arguing your point without personal attacks or running somebody down.
again, keep your story straight. keep your quotes straight. don't put words in my mouth that i didn't say.
well, i meant that in the most respectful and loving way. but if you want to self identify in that manner i'm not one to stop you. ;D
you should probably call him and ask if he knows how to install them. the least you could do is walk him thru it over the phone.
do you need their number?
Nope. I stopped dealing with idiots when I retired. Now I just tell them to **** off.
NC Engine Builder
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Oldmoronwithamopar=clown
Wow. I thought this thread was off the rails before.
It’s funny, because @Newbomb Turk and @junkyardhero and I most definitely do not agree about everything. And as pointed out, we actually disagree about some pretty significant aspects of suspension and chassis performance.
But here’s the thing- there is room for disagreement on some of those things. Suspension design, chassis set up, etc at some levels come down to drivers preference. Really famous racers and car builders have disagreed about that before, there are different methods to achieving similar results. Dick Gulstand and Herb Adams for example, both very successful racers, had quite different theories on setting up their cars.
But what OMM believes is not that. It’s either a fundamental misunderstanding of how the suspension components work at the most basic level, or it’s a deliberate attempt to mislead people for his own gain.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter. If what OMM shows actually happened in the real world, poly and delrin bushings would not be widely used in road racing and AutoX competitions.
Right. Your gimmick involves partially assembled suspension with no torsion bar loads. That's not how the suspension works.
Again, anyone that understands even basic suspension geometry and function would understand that if the LCA was sliding back and forth 3/4" while the car was driving would know that the resulting geometry changes would be catastrophic. A car with that issue would not stay on the road, let alone win road racing and auto competitions. Which they do.
Why would I call a machinist about suspension? And maybe my experience isn't universal, but every machinist I've ever know that was worth their salt is so busy they can barely answer their phone for paying customers and still get work done. Let alone field calls from random folks on the internet to talk about suspension work they don't even do.
It’s funny, because @Newbomb Turk and @junkyardhero and I most definitely do not agree about everything. And as pointed out, we actually disagree about some pretty significant aspects of suspension and chassis performance.
But here’s the thing- there is room for disagreement on some of those things. Suspension design, chassis set up, etc at some levels come down to drivers preference. Really famous racers and car builders have disagreed about that before, there are different methods to achieving similar results. Dick Gulstand and Herb Adams for example, both very successful racers, had quite different theories on setting up their cars.
But what OMM believes is not that. It’s either a fundamental misunderstanding of how the suspension components work at the most basic level, or it’s a deliberate attempt to mislead people for his own gain.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter. If what OMM shows actually happened in the real world, poly and delrin bushings would not be widely used in road racing and AutoX competitions.
No sir. This conversation started because a guy wanted some input on a suspension rebuild. You hijacked it.
Right. Your gimmick involves partially assembled suspension with no torsion bar loads. That's not how the suspension works.
When PARTIALLY assembled. And upside down. With no load on the torsion bars.
Again, anyone that understands even basic suspension geometry and function would understand that if the LCA was sliding back and forth 3/4" while the car was driving would know that the resulting geometry changes would be catastrophic. A car with that issue would not stay on the road, let alone win road racing and auto competitions. Which they do.
Why would I call a machinist about suspension? And maybe my experience isn't universal, but every machinist I've ever know that was worth their salt is so busy they can barely answer their phone for paying customers and still get work done. Let alone field calls from random folks on the internet to talk about suspension work they don't even do.
NC Engine Builder
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Totally agree with @72bluNblu but he is a lot better at explaining than I am. I DO know I personally raced these cars the fastest 1/2 mile asphalt tri oval in the country, and still hold the track record, so I know torsion bar chassis setup, and OMM, is 100% wrong.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
I've used both with success. The problem I've run into is that it may be easier finding quality poly bushings than rubber because rubber suspension component quality tends to be iffy. I've had to return a few myself. Poly does require special lube and you may have to reapply it depending on how much you drive your Mopar. Just my experience though. Maybe I was doing it wrong.
In fairness, I think this thread has been hijacked by a few people. Everyone has said their piece and none of the bickering at this point is helping the person who started the thread. It's okay to just let things go and walk away.
I’m fine with people running whatever. Poly, rubber, delrin, nylon etc. They each have their pro and cons and what’s best depends on the application and what supporting parts are being used- suspension is a system.
But I’m not gonna let OMM just bullshit to death every thread where poly bushings comes up. He’s not giving an opinion, he’s filling this board with advice that’s factually wrong. And that’s dangerous. You can have your own opinion, you don’t get to have your own facts.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
I totally get it. Maybe consider giving the ignore button a try. I've had that guy on ignore for years and suggest others do the same. No sense in messin' up Captainkirk's thread over the back and forth bs.
Right, because even at full droop, you still have the shocks and strut rods attached and they both limit the amount the LCA can fall, so even with the wheels off the ground, the torsion bars are still loaded, although certainly not as much as with the weight on, but I'd bet money you still couldn't knock them out with the wheels off the ground and nothing else removed.
Exactly.
Even if you switch to larger torsion bars that have a different hex offset and a smaller degree of twist when loaded you still have to keep the bars loaded at full extension. Otherwise you run the risk of unseating the adjuster screws when the bars unload and having them not seat in the levers when the suspension compresses again. You’d drop the car straight onto the bump stops if that happened.
Captainkirk
Old School Mopar Warrior
Thank you all for the info and lively debate...it appears that while rubber might be perfectly adequate for my situation, poly or delrin might be much more readily available if I can figure out how to properly install it! I'll let you all know what I decide on. FWIW my son, who is now in on this project build, is firmly in favor of not using rubber due to the fact it's gonna be a 400 hp engine build.
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A car set up for drag racing, or for handling will benefit from some chassis stiffening, torque boxes & sub-frame connectors at minimum with 400 hp and its associated torque.
PS; if interested [FOR SALE] - Adjustable strut rods F S
The quality of the rubber bushings available now is definitely not what it once was. There are still some decent options though.
The quality of the poly bushings out there is good, I honestly had great luck with the cheapest ones out there (1974 PLYMOUTH DUSTER Prothane Motion Control 4-205-BL Prothane Front Control Arm Bushings | Summit Racing). When I pulled the set that had 10k miles on them to replace them with the BAC delrins there wasn't any visible difference between the 10k mile old poly bushings and a new set. And of course BergmanAutoCraft's Delrin bushings are top notch, although more expensive.
The only thing is, as I've said, I personally think that poly and delrin bushings should be used with adjustable strut rods and greaseable pivot pins. I like the QA1 strut rods and FirmFeel's greaseable pivot pins. It's an extra expense, and setting the adjustable strut rods to the correct length, especially the first couple of times around, can be a little time consuming. It also is something that most alignment shops won't do, so setting the length of the strut rods is usually something you have to take on yourself. But those part give you the fits and tolerances you need with those bushings, to make up for the loose factory tolerances present on these cars.
If you do decide to go that route and have questions, feel free to PM me and I can help walk you through it without all the BS that happens on the open forum on this topic.
Captainkirk
Old School Mopar Warrior
I have a new (current) Summit catalog on the way. When I get to the point where I'm ready to re-bush I will certainly PM you if I get in over my head. Thanks!
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