Front Suspension refurb

[NC Engine Builder]

I was at Steve's when he was prying the control arm front and back off the pin with the torsion bar installed. He couldn't put a load on the bars when the body was upside down in the air. But it could do this on the ground using the power of the car The pin was tight against before he started to pry it front to back. The control arm was pivoting off the strut rod that was in place and tight. He also used the same tap to press my old sleeve out when replacing my original bushings. I was told you leave the original sleeve in the control arm for the slip in style bushings and on the pin that goes in. Telling him he installed them wrong would be incorrect. They just slip into the original bushing sleeve with force. Seems like your telling him he installed them wrong just trying to cause trouble. Explain to me how you can install them wrong? Or due you glue them in place. I thought you should use some type of grease. And how can loading weight on the control arm stop that movement if the car is going up and down? What I have seen at his shop is cars that came here that already had them put in with this movement. Are you the only one that puts them in the right way. Please explain your method in detail so we understand what he did wrong . Did he put them in backwards?

Its allready been explained WITH pictures, if you still dont understand, then you are just as lost as oldmoronmopar

 

[72bluNblu]

I was at Steve's when he was prying the control arm front and back off the pin with the torsion bar installed. He couldn't put a load on the bars when the body was upside down in the air. But it could do this on the ground using the power of the car The pin was tight against before he started to pry it front to back. The control arm was pivoting off the strut rod that was in place and tight. He also used the same tap to press my old sleeve out when replacing my original bushings. I was told you leave the original sleeve in the control arm for the slip in style bushings and on the pin that goes in. Telling him he installed them wrong would be incorrect. They just slip into the original bushing sleeve with force. Seems like your telling him he installed them wrong just trying to cause trouble. Explain to me how you can install them wrong? Or due you glue them in place. I thought you should use some type of grease. And how can loading weight on the control arm stop that movement if the car is going up and down? What I have seen at his shop is cars that came here that already had them put in with this movement. Are you the only one that puts them in the right way. Please explain your method in detail so we understand what he did wrong . Did he put them in backwards?

OMM is the only person here trying to start trouble. Every time someone brings up poly bushings he trots out a story from 30+ years ago that just demonstrates he doesn't have a clue what he's doing. Yes, I understand why he didn't load the torsion bars, but he apparently doesn't understand why loading the torsion bars is actually critical to a proper demonstration of how those parts work. With the torsion bars unloaded the entire exercise and pictures are useless for an actual demonstration of function.

Look, if you're a reasonable person then I'm sure you can understand that what OMM is showing could not happen on a car that was drivable on the street. If the LCA's actually moved around while driving as much as OMM showed you'd be in the ditch, that much movement of the LCA would represent many degrees of caster change. I've put over 40k street miles on my Duster with either poly or Delrin bushings installed. Peter Bergman, who owns BergmanAutoCraft, makes the Delrin bushings. He developed them running his car on road courses, and uses them on his car for that purpose. There are many members on this forum that participate in autoX and road course driving that use poly or Delrin bushings. Clearly you can't think that any car that does road courses or autoX has LCA's that are moving back and forth as much as OMM shows in those pictures. Which means what OMM is showing is 1- not representative of real life and 2- demonstrates what happens when you install these bushings incorrectly.

I've detailed this process before, but sure, I'll explain how to do this correctly since OMM keeps saying you just slap them in which is as wrong as you can be about anything.

First, it depends on whether you're using poly or delrin bushings, and what KIND. Some of the poly bushings re-use the old outer shells from the OE bushings, you remove the rubber and leave the outer shell in the LCA. Others have their own outer shells (proforged) and the Delrin or Nylon bushings typically do not require an outer shell at all. For the BergmanAutocraft Delrin bushings there is no outer shell, the material is hard enough not to need one and the old shells are removed and the Delrin bushing installed in its place.

Second, the fits HAVE TO BE RIGHT. For the poly bushings that re-use the outer shells, the bushing must be a tight slip fit into the outer shell. It should press in by hand, but not slide out on its own. The OE bushing outer shells are not all the same thickness, it depends on manufacturer etc., so in some cases you might find the poly bushing is loose in the old outer shell. If that's the case, you MUST replace the outer shell with one that has a tight fit to the poly LCA bushing.

The pivot pin is next. If you re-use a stock pin, you must also re-use the inner shell because the pivot pins are stepped. The tolerances on the inner shells, and even the tolerances on the factory pivot pins, isn't that great. The poly bushing again must be a TIGHT slip fit onto the pivot. If it is not, once again you need to replace it with a pivot that fits tightly in the bushing. Personally, I always use greasable pivot pins when I'm using poly LCA bushings, I have greasable pivots from Firm Feel (who have been making them and their nylon bushings for at least 2 decades now). The aftermarket pivot pins made for use with poly bushings have a constant diameter, so you don't need to reuse the old OE inner bushing shell, and they tend to be a better fit than most of the factory pivots. When I was installing my Delrin LCA bushings I measured 4 sets of factory pivot pins, and those 8 different original LCA pivot pins had diameters ranging from .928" up to .945". No two were the same diameter, not even the pairs. If you know your tolerances for a tight slip fit, you know that difference is more than enough to change the class of fit. The Firm Feel pivot pins had the best fit of any of the factory or even other aftermarket LCA pins that I tried. If you're keeping track, that's 4 pairs of factory pins and one pair of aftermarket pins that didn't have a good fit. Some were "ok", but the ones on the smaller end of that diameter range were too loose.

Finally, you have the strut rods. I only use adjustable strut rods when I use poly or delrin bushings. The original design has a ton of slop, and the whole point of replacing the LCA bushings is to get rid of that slop. That being said, I won't say you can't use rubber strut rod bushings with poly LCA bushings. Because here's the deal, the LCA still won't move any further than it could have with the factory LCA bushings, the rubber LCA bushings still allow fore/aft flex and the whole assemble does move. But the thing is that the rubber LCA bushings and poly and delrin bushings have a completely different design. You can see that here...

The poly and delrin bushings are meant to be tight against the shoulder on the LCA pivot pin and tight against the LCA, not to have a gap like the factory bushings do. That's why they're longer.

When you use poly or delrin bushings, you MUST make sure that there's no gaps, like I posted in my picture earlier. You in fact need a slight amount of forward pressure on the LCA. Which is why I recommend adjustable strut rods, because you can actually SET that length and then check the LCA for binding. The factory strut rods are a "one size fits most" affair, and they use the giant pillow strut rod bushings to make up the differences in the factory tolerances. You can't do that with poly or delrin LCA bushings, the strut rods MUST be the proper length. And you MUST check for binding.

So no, you can't just slap them in. You CAN install them incorrectly, and if you can achieve gaps like the ones that OMM showed then I can absolutely guarantee that something was not done properly. Period. Because what he shows is not possible on my Duster with delrin LCA bushings installed. If my LCA's moved about as much he showed my 275/35/18's would be into the fenders the first time I hit the brakes. Now granted, some of that is he's not showing this on a fully assembled and loaded suspension, which he should know makes a difference. The rest is that he didn't have the proper fit to begin with.

And yeah, I get it, that's a lot of work to do this correctly. Which is why, like in this very thread, I don't recommend poly or delrin LCA bushings to everyone. If your suspension will be primarily factory components, then poly or delrin LCA bushings are not a good match to your plans. However, if you want a torsion bar equipped Mopar to handle really well, you're doing the other modifications to make the poly or delrin bushings work anyway. And getting rid of the sloppy rubber LCA and strut rod bushings makes a big difference in the handling of these cars.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Let Me understand this . What you all are saying is if you want to hold the control arm forward on the inside at the k-member. You need to shorten the strut rod attached out at the ball joint using a strut rod that pivots . Just think about that in any scenario.

The strut rod bushing I used in the pictures above is the slimmest two piece bushing I had . I tightened it up to the end of the threads squashing it to prevent the least movement of the bar as possible. And still I can move the arm at the LCB front and back as far as the pictures show easily.

The gap in the smallest distance was after it was against then pried it back and then moved it back front. That is with a dry torsion bar installed. take the bar out and you could almost pop it right off the pin.

With the later larger bushings with and inner sleeve it gets worse. The strut rod attached out at the end does not hold the arm forward at the bushing. That is why I used the tightest bushing and rod from an early car. So it would prevent the least movement. And still you can move it that far with little effort.

I remember you clearly stating the strut rod holds the arm against at the LCB bushing . Shorten the rod and it won't move back at the k-member you said. I proved your theory wrong. I used The stiffest strut rod bushing I have and still it moves freely. Add a swivel and see what happens.

Over the years I have done hundreds of cars not just control arms. there is no wrong way to install those slip in bushings like you always state. Slip them in the arm and install the pin. Once they are seated they should stay in place as you state even after you lube them for easy movement. Oh yeah add a grease fitting

You can shorten that strut rod an inch and you could still move it back at the k-member. remove the cushioned rubber on the strut then add a swivel and its easier. The only thing that stops it from popping off the pin is the binding angle it gets on the torsion bar.

So Answer Todds question if I am installing the bushings in the arm wrong as you state several times . Tell us or show us the correct way. Or is it just your mouth that does it right.

How about tightening the top lock nut on the pin while in spins in the K-member. Tell me your using a regular nut with a lock washer. LMFAO. or do you hold it at the back with a vise grips. that is stronger then anyone else's in the world . like your tiny 20 ton press.

That tap your using to take the shell out. I made one out of a hardened bolt in a mill many years ago. I also have the tool made to remove the sleeve off the pin.

Where do you think my son got the start of his machine shop. We have machines and do work you could only dream about. 1 bed mill over 100k new and I bought 2. Your press is a toy.

Your welded up mess you have is a disgrace . Why not Buy the stiffening plates.. talk about destroying a K-member. I have what ever you need in stock. LOL

How about a large red X Turd bomb they make my posts stand out.

Hey Jack arss look! not a one Quote. This place is great but like my dad taught me . You Can't Fix Stupid.. "I got a 20 ton Press and a tap"? So I am cool now. Give me a f-n break. probably a Harbor freight model.

You make me and every one here at the shop laugh. They get on the phones at lunch and watch for you replies. One thing you are is a good comedian. Everyone here calls you Adam Schiff. You got the evidence.

I told them I was going to put that K-member in. When I left the machine shop and came to my place. they couldn't wait for your reply. They all call you Mr. Suspension. I thought Braden was going to piss his pants at lunch. They were laughing so hard even the 4 year old grand daughter was laughing and she didn't know what was funny. You are a piece of work my friend.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Oh. I forgot to mention. get rid of those sloppy rubber bushings for the street and watch your rails and k-member start to crack at the attachment points. But don't worry looks like you have a the best stick welder on the market.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Let Me understand this . What you all are saying is if you want to hold the control arm forward on the inside at the k-member. You need to shorten the strut rod attached out at the ball joint using a strut rod that pivots . Just think about that in any scenario.

The strut rod bushing I used in the pictures above is the slimmest two piece bushing I had . I tightened it up to the end of the threads squashing it to prevent the least movement of the bar as possible. And still I can move the arm at the LCB front and back as far as the pictures show easily.

The gap in the smallest distance was after it was against then pried it back and then moved it back front. That is with a dry torsion bar installed. take the bar out and you could almost pop it right off the pin.

With the later larger bushings with and inner sleeve it gets worse. The strut rod attached out at the end does not hold the arm forward at the bushing. That is why I used the tightest bushing and rod from an early car. So it would prevent the least movement. And still you can move it that far with little effort.

I remember you clearly stating the strut rod holds the arm against at the LCB bushing . Shorten the rod and it won't move back at the k-member you said. I proved your theory wrong. I used The stiffest strut rod bushing I have and still it moves freely. Add a swivel and see what happens.

Over the years I have done hundreds of cars not just control arms. there is no wrong way to install those slip in bushings like you always state. Slip them in the arm and install the pin. Once they are seated they should stay in place as you state even after you lube them for easy movement. Oh yeah add a grease fitting

You can shorten that strut rod an inch and you could still move it back at the k-member. remove the cushioned rubber on the strut then add a swivel and its easier. The only thing that stops it from popping off the pin is the binding angle it gets on the torsion bar.

So Answer Todds question if I am installing the bushings in the arm wrong as you state several times . Tell us or show us the correct way. Or is it just your mouth that does it right.

How about tightening the top lock nut on the pin while in spins in the K-member. Tell me your using a regular nut with a lock washer. LMFAO. or do you hold it at the back with a vise grips. that is stronger then anyone else's in the world . like your tiny 20 ton press.

That tap your using to take the shell out. I made one out of a hardened bolt in a mill many years ago. I also have the tool made to remove the sleeve off the pin.

Where do you think my son got the start of his machine shop. We have machines and do work you could only dream about. 1 bed mill over 100k new and I bought 2. Your press is a toy.

Your welded up mess you have is a disgrace . Why not Buy the stiffening plates.. talk about destroying a K-member. I have what ever you need in stock. LOL

How about a large red X Turd bomb they make my posts stand out.

Hey Jack arss look! not a one Quote. This place is great but like my dad taught me . You Can't Fix Stupid.. "I got a 20 ton Press and a tap"? So I am cool now. Give me a f-n break. probably a Harbor freight model.

You make me and every one here at the shop laugh. They get on the phones at lunch and watch for you replies. One thing you are is a good comedian. Everyone here calls you Adam Schiff. You got the evidence.

I told them I was going to put that K-member in. When I left the machine shop and came to my place. they couldn't wait for your reply. They all call you Mr. Suspension. I thought Braden was going to piss his pants at lunch. They were laughing so hard even the 4 year old grand daughter was laughing and she didn't know what was funny. You are a piece of work my friend.

Not only classless, but clueless.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Not only classless, but clueless.

And your still in the clouds. Remember the old (Hercules) / Tercules cartoons. and that little jack *** with the human head that would yell Turk Turk. I'll save you I'm Turk .

Is it you.?

I am out of here i am laughing so hard it feels like an acid trip back in 69 at Bethel woods NY.

 

[junkyardhero]

i find that there's nothing quite like some ad hominem attack to really seal the deal on your side of the argument.

but that's just me i guess; and i am an expert after all.

 

[Captainkirk]

All I wanted to know was rubber or poly?

 

[72bluNblu]

All I wanted to know was rubber or poly?

Yeah right? Any time anyone on this forum mentions poly bushings, @Oldmanmopar loses his mind. It's been that way for as long as I've been a member. He simply can't stand the fact that once, over 30 years ago, he had a set of poly bushings fail because he didn't have the foggiest idea how to install them.

But rather than try to understand how it is that literally thousands of people use poly bushings everyday without issue, he throws a tantrum because clearly every person, and the entire aftermarket handling industry, must be wrong. Not him.

The fun part is, he'll keep getting more and more upset, get more and more vulgar, and eventually this thread will get deleted. Because it's happened DOZENS of times before. All because OMM can't admit he doesn't have a clue how those bushings work.

My suggestion is, go back to post #33, @junkyardhero laid out a good plan. Screenshot it, because yeah, this is all gonna go away soon. Or call Peter Bergman. For your application the OE replacement bushings will be just fine.

Let Me understand this . What you all are saying is if you want to hold the control arm forward on the inside at the k-member. You need to shorten the strut rod attached out at the ball joint using a strut rod that pivots . Just think about that in any scenario.

The strut rod bushing I used in the pictures above is the slimmest two piece bushing I had . I tightened it up to the end of the threads squashing it to prevent the least movement of the bar as possible. And still I can move the arm at the LCB front and back as far as the pictures show easily.

The gap in the smallest distance was after it was against then pried it back and then moved it back front. That is with a dry torsion bar installed. take the bar out and you could almost pop it right off the pin.

With the later larger bushings with and inner sleeve it gets worse. The strut rod attached out at the end does not hold the arm forward at the bushing. That is why I used the tightest bushing and rod from an early car. So it would prevent the least movement. And still you can move it that far with little effort.

And you did all that with unloaded torsion bars. Oh, and right, you didn't install the strut rod or bushings correctly, you cherry picked a bushing and then overtorqued it to smash it further, guaranteeing that the effective strut rod length would be wrong. Yup, still running a scam.

I remember you clearly stating the strut rod holds the arm against at the LCB bushing . Shorten the rod and it won't move back at the k-member you said. I proved your theory wrong. I used The stiffest strut rod bushing I have and still it moves freely. Add a swivel and see what happens.

All you "proved" is that if you only install half the suspension you can push the LCA backward.

And it's not a "theory", I literally drove my car this afternoon. It didn't take 3/4" of travel on that UCA end to stuff the wheel on your Demon and send it into a telephone pole did it? Well, how have I put 40k miles on my Duster? How do I commute with it? And I do run a "swivel", I have adjustable strut rods on my car. So again, I "see what happens" every time I drive my car- it handles awesome, far better than it did before I replaced all the stock components.

Over the years I have done hundreds of cars not just control arms. there is no wrong way to install those slip in bushings like you always state. Slip them in the arm and install the pin. Once they are seated they should stay in place as you state even after you lube them for easy movement. Oh yeah add a grease fitting

Yup, exactly like that. And then you install the strut rods and tension them properly, while also making sure they're the correct length. And then you install the rest of the suspension and load the damn torsion bars.

You can shorten that strut rod an inch and you could still move it back at the k-member. remove the cushioned rubber on the strut then add a swivel and its easier. The only thing that stops it from popping off the pin is the binding angle it gets on the torsion bar.

So Answer Todds question if I am installing the bushings in the arm wrong as you state several times . Tell us or show us the correct way. Or is it just your mouth that does it right.

How about tightening the top lock nut on the pin while in spins in the K-member. Tell me your using a regular nut with a lock washer. LMFAO. or do you hold it at the back with a vise grips. that is stronger then anyone else's in the world .

Well, if Todd can read the entire process for proper installation is in post #52, step by step, the whole thing. That's what I do. Install the delrin bushings in the LCA, slide the LCA and bushing onto the pivot shaft, pull the LCA up tight against the shoulder on the pivot shaft and shorten the strut rod until it just pulls tension. Install the torsion bars and the rest of the suspension except for the shocks, tighten the pivot shaft nut. With the torsion bar adjusters and plates out of the LCA, cycle the suspension up and down bump stop to bump stop and check for binding. Adjust the length of the strut rod until there is no binding within the range of useable travel. Re-install the plate and adjusters, install the shocks, re-check the torque on everything (doesn't have to be on the ground because the bushing spins, can't tear). Put it on the ground, set the ride height and do the alignment.

You wanna see my set up? Here it is. As of right now, tonight. "Swivel" on the strut rod, nylock nut on the LCA pivot torqued to 100 ft/lbs, strut rods been on there so long the plating is starting to fail. Rest is dirt, not rust. I know, you don't know what dirt looks like because you haven't driven a Mopar in dirt or inclement weather in decades. Well, I do. Gonna drive it 60 miles tomorrow.

Here's a close up of the Nylock that's done 40k+ miles, in case you don't see too well. Grease fitting and all. How did I tighten that up huh? Well, it wasn't with vise grips.

like your tiny 20 ton press.

That tap your using to take the shell out. I made one out of a hardened bolt in a mill many years ago. I also have the tool made to remove the sleeve off the pin.

Where do you think my son got the start of his machine shop. We have machines and do work you could only dream about. 1 bed mill over 100k new and I bought 2. Your press is a toy.

I'm sorry, why is it that you need more than a 20 ton press to install LCA bushings? Yeah, my HF 20 ton press does it easily. I'm just a dude working out of his garage. I didn't need to make a tool because I bought a $20 tap on eBay. Works great.

And as far as what I can dream about? Well, if you put aside your fantasy that I work in a weed shop and embrace reality, I have an Aerospace Engineering degree from UCLA. There's nothing in your machine shop that would even make the floor in some of the machine shops I've been in. Ever had to sign an NDA before you went into a machine shop before? I have. You've got a small time shop in PA, you should stop trying to big league people with a 100k dollar machine. I've used engineering software that cost more than that 25 years ago.

Your welded up mess you have is a disgrace . Why not Buy the stiffening plates.. talk about destroying a K-member. I have what ever you need in stock. LOL

I made the stiffening plates, they're just 3/16" plate. And that K member will be under my car and living its best life long after you've been planted underground sir. I don't need any of your used up garbage.

How about a large red X Turd bomb they make my posts stand out.

Hey Jack arss look! not a one Quote. This place is great but like my dad taught me . You Can't Fix Stupid.. "I got a 20 ton Press and a tap"? So I am cool now. Give me a f-n break. probably a Harbor freight model.

It is a HF model. And it works! I don't need my shop press to boost my ego, I just need it to do the job. Which it does.

Oh, and I quote you on the off chance this thread doesn't get deleted. If you go back and try to edit your post, what you said originally remains in the quotes in my post. I take screenshots of the really juicy stuff! You know, in case the thread gets deleted I can still PM people all the nice things you said.

You make me and every one here at the shop laugh. They get on the phones at lunch and watch for you replies. One thing you are is a good comedian. Everyone here calls you Adam Schiff. You got the evidence.

I told them I was going to put that K-member in. When I left the machine shop and came to my place. they couldn't wait for your reply. They all call you Mr. Suspension. I thought Braden was going to piss his pants at lunch. They were laughing so hard even the 4 year old grand daughter was laughing and she didn't know what was funny. You are a piece of work my friend.

And I care why? Bunch of low life mechanics that have to pull gimmicks on customers are laughing about me never needing a low-life mechanic because I do everything myself? So what. Millions of morons just like that, doesn't affect my life one bit. People I'll never meet and have no use for.

Oh. I forgot to mention. get rid of those sloppy rubber bushings for the street and watch your rails and k-member start to crack at the attachment points. But don't worry looks like you have a the best stick welder on the market.

Tell you what, you hold your breath, and I'll tell you when my welds, K-member and frame rails start cracking. Been over a decade so far, so take a deep breath.

 

[junkyardhero]

All I wanted to know was rubber or poly?

 

[Oldmanmopar]

All I wanted to know was rubber or poly?

Rubber in the lower control arm. Unless your using some method behind the torsion bar to stop the front and back movement of the control arm. sliding on and off the lubed up pin.

One thing to remember is these cars were not designed for the shock load of these newer stiff bushings, The frame and frame attachments are weak. This should be evident of all the welding shown on 72bluNblu parts above . Chrysler had a problem with the K-members cracking on cars with stabilizer bar cars on harsh road conditions. That is why they were reinforced on 70 -72 340 cars prior to the larger softer strut rod bushings.

Look at all the welds on this guys suspension above just to prevent this evident issue

Leave the engineered suspension the way it was designed for the street. I love these cars as light weight straight line cars. They were never meant to be canyon carvers. If you want to upgrade get a complete after market suspension with lower A-arms and a rack & pinion . Then add all the bracing US car tool sells.

Even when Chrysler redesigned the suspension in the later B-bodies and F -bodies they used large cushions to attach them to the frame to prevent shock to the unibody.

I may be old school at 70 years old but I have seen to many issues with these cars over the years. The lower poly / delrin style bushings are the worse thing you can add to these suspensions. I have seen guys put a plastic style shims/bushings behind the torsion bar and pin the bar forward to prevent the movement of lower shown above.

If you want to use poly delrin style go for it.

drive forward and hit the brakes to seat the control arm against the K-frame. Then back up and hit the brakes hard in reverse and look at how far they move away from the K-frame. I tried to show you all using the stiffest two piece bushing on the strut rod I have here that the strut rod does not prevent this movement as 72bluNblu states. I used a straight screwdriver to show the movement. And because I didn't pry it all the way back front. On No! I installed them wrong

Even with the torsion bar in place and the stiffest strut rod bushing, the lower can be moved easy front and back off the pin. Loading the bar means nothing because it unloads while driving. But he looks for reasons to make himself right. Like there is a special way to install the bushing that only he knows.

72bluNblu constantly states I am installing them wrong. How can you? They just push in with a little force . The lube is needed because without it they destroy themselves.

the most important thing to do when using OEM rubber style is to tighten the lower pin and upper eccentric bolts while the car is at ride height or they will tear from moving to far in one direction when letting it down and then driving it.

So its Rubber for me.

 

[Captainkirk]

@72bluNblu said:" For your application the OE replacement bushings will be just fine."

@Oldmanmopar said: So its Rubber for me."

I think this is what it's come down to. For my application/usage rubber is probably the right choice, especially since I have paid attention and noted that the installation and setup of poly is different than rubber and I have no idea how do do that (I'll be using the Mopar factory chassis manual which is geared to rubber)...obviously poly/delrin is not plug 'n' play from what I'm reading here.
Now the question arises...who sells rubber components? I saw a lot of talk on Bergman's site about non-rubber but it wasn't clear if he had the components in rubber?
Classic certainly does not. Everyone these days seems to be pushing poly or delrin (I fully understand why) and while not opposed to it, I've never tried to install it and don't want to screw things up by doing it wrong. It sounds like the processes differ greatly. Do the p/d kits come with instructions? Any special tools needed? Or should these be installed by a professional chassis shop?

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Chassis shop that did them before. They get pressed on the pin first and then in the control arm. If you put them in the arm first you'll ruin the bushing installing the pin. If that makes any sense

 

[Dave999]

crikey yikes and other scooby doo type exclamations

what i done
NOS mopar boxed mid 60s upper joints. small taper off US ebay
Japanese Sankie THREE 555 lowers (best qulity RHD) off a guy in Australia lowers
Moog strut rod bushings the type that replace the single piece rubber early A type. came with nylocks no castle/split pin
Rockauto as new as possible branded and mid priced rubber upper and lower bushings
AC delco bump stops close out sale
TRW track rod ends

basically if it was ball joint like i purchased old obsolete stock that had the correct plastic rimmed top hat seal. if the box was old and a bit dirty, content in waxed paper or still in poly bag i was interested. I avoided anything with metal clip Balloon/Boots

pitman came from Repco Australia
Idler was cheap chinese RoadSafe brand

Multi Mileage Lube possibly the last tube ever made.... some fella in Frankfurt. Daimler chrysler on it ..... TexacoChevron MARFAK is supposed to be similar

Why i did it this way

Wanted steel on steel balljoints and track rod ends as per design no plastic socket guff

it worked out less than a kit
everything had provision for a grease fitting if appropriate or had one in the box

what i learned
the lower arm bushings, the upper arm bushings, the upper bump stops were degraded badly perished rubber. they needed doing.

The lower ball joints were the only hard parts that actually might be considered scrap but were actually not that bad.
the uppers were looser than new but pretty much ok (cleaned and stored away)

why? because the allowable clearance on the lower joints according to chrysler is much greater than any allowed in a modern joint. With the correct Mopar multi mileage lube they would have probably lived to fight on for another 20-40K miles

I do believe we probably throw away many perfectly serviceable lower and upper joints every year, because we don't check the book for the ware specifications before deciding to put em in the trash, we just go with modern thinking, applicable to plastic socketed joints.

genuinely believe you would be hard pushed to hammer out an upper joint. they should last a very very long time if lubed regularly.

Pitman arm Stud idler arm stud. these are not ball joints the stud is like fat nail with a thick head with a hardened rubber washer on it. pressed into its housing with the back crimped on... even if the rubber disintegrated it has nowhere to go. hard pushed to wear one of them out.

but if you do you could replace that bush with aluminium or brass and drill for a grease fitting... (pic borrowed from TNDKEMP)

anyway time for my dinner

Dave

 

[junkyardhero]

Now the question arises...who sells rubber components? Do the p/d kits come with instructions? Any special tools needed? Or should these be installed by a professional chassis shop?

proforged sells good quality rubber lowers.

you still have to check the tolerances between your pins and the new pieces.

nothing i've bought comes with instructions. i imagine that bergman's delrin units do though. if it's just OE style rubber, follow the FSM and you'll be fine. if you have a press (yes, even a harbor freight one!) and can adeptly operate it, then you'll be okay.

just know going in that it is 100% not a fun job.

btw, if you do wind up taking it to a chassis shop or any other place for the work make sure they are mopar savvy. you can **** up more than you can fix right quick if you're thinking gorgonzola when it's clearly brie time.

 

[Oldmanmopar]

Update your K-member to a newer style idler arm. Buy the bracket off a 68 -76 kemember and weld the newer style on , It takes a through bolt for the idler. It will never come apart again

 

[Newbomb Turk]

And your still in the clouds. Remember the old (Hercules) / Tercules cartoons. and that little jack *** with the human head that would yell Turk Turk. I'll save you I'm Turk .

Is it you.?

View attachment 1716441697

I am out of here i am laughing so hard it feels like an acid trip back in 69 at Bethel woods NY.

@72bluNblu said:" For your application the OE replacement bushings will be just fine."

@Oldmanmopar said: So its Rubber for me."

I think this is what it's come down to. For my application/usage rubber is probably the right choice, especially since I have paid attention and noted that the installation and setup of poly is different than rubber and I have no idea how do do that (I'll be using the Mopar factory chassis manual which is geared to rubber)...obviously poly/delrin is not plug 'n' play from what I'm reading here.
Now the question arises...who sells rubber components? I saw a lot of talk on Bergman's site about non-rubber but it wasn't clear if he had the components in rubber?
Classic certainly does not. Everyone these days seems to be pushing poly or delrin (I fully understand why) and while not opposed to it, I've never tried to install it and don't want to screw things up by doing it wrong. It sounds like the processes differ greatly. Do the p/d kits come with instructions? Any special tools needed? Or should these be installed by a professional chassis shop?

I’ll say it. You are making a bad decision. You are basing your decision on the musings of a semi retarded old man in his waining years.

Invest in poly or delrin bushings and adjustable strut rods.

It’s not 1975 any more.

And don’t let fear rule your decision making. Doing the bushings and strut rods are easy.

Only an asshole thinks it’s too hard to do.

 

[Captainkirk]

I’ll say it. You are making a bad decision. You are basing your decision on the musings of a semi retarded old man in his waining years.

Invest in poly or delrin bushings and adjustable strut rods.

It’s not 1975 any more.

And don’t let fear rule your decision making. Doing the bushings and strut rods are easy.

Only an asshole thinks it’s too hard to do.

Well, I don't think I'm an a-hole but I'm sure there would be some that would disagree...I've been a professional aircraft mechanic for nearly 50 years and work on $25 mil aircraft every damn day, so I'm not a complete moron when it comes to things mechanical. That being said, I'm smart enough to know when I'm clueless about a thing or two and chassis setup is one of them. I'm not making decisions based on anyone's opinions, just what I feel capable of at the moment. I've not ruled out poly/delrin bushings either. Just don't want to open up a can of worms that will put me further back down the road, if that makes sense? It might not be 1975 (or 1972 for that matter) but if new tech was that important I would dump this car and pick up a new hemi Challenger. Just sayin'. I do appreciate your input. It's all helpful.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

Well, I don't think I'm an a-hole but I'm sure there would be some that would disagree...I've been a professional aircraft mechanic for nearly 50 years and work on $25 mil aircraft every damn day, so I'm not a complete moron when it comes to things mechanical. That being said, I'm smart enough to know when I'm clueless about a thing or two and chassis setup is one of them. I'm not making decisions based on anyone's opinions, just what I feel capable of at the moment. I've not ruled out poly/delrin bushings either. Just don't want to open up a can of worms that will put me further back down the road, if that makes sense? It might not be 1975 (or 1972 for that matter) but if new tech was that important I would dump this car and pick up a new hemi Challenger. Just sayin'. I do appreciate your input. It's all helpful.

Kinda like has been allready mentioned, either style will work fine for what your doing. There is ZERO issues with the poly if installed correctly.

 

[S'cuder]

proforged sells good quality rubber lowers.

you still have to check the tolerances between your pins and the new pieces.

Proforged also sells those good rubber lower bushings with new pins already pressed in. I've used them, they're nice. If your pins get buggered up removing the inner bushing shell, you might want to consider these.

Bushings with new pins:
https://proforged.com/proforged-120...eJH55DTcfI-soUyIB9creDUT0RhE1HBg9MZ4oYc4f1Gli
Bushings without pins:
Proforged Chassis Parts 115-10015 Proforged Control Arm Bushings
Proforged 115-10015 Lower Control Arm Bushing

These are available from several vendors, but you can get the part numbers from the Proforged website.

FABO member @Jim Lusk has made and posted several how-to videos that have hacks and shortcuts you may not find in the service manual. Maybe the best part about them is you get to see they're not a big deal to do and you'll gain confidence. I'm not sure how to link the videos here. Maybe some helpful soul will post them up.

 

[RogerRamRod]

Am I looking at this wrong? Aren't the "washers" supposed to form a bell against the bushing (convex) as opposed to a cup or concave? Maybe mine were backwards.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Am I looking at this wrong? Aren't the "washers" supposed to form a bell against the bushing (convex) as opposed to a cup or concave? Maybe mine were backwards.

It depends on the year range. One goes one way and one goes the other. I don't know which though.

 

[Jim Lusk]

 

[RustyRatRod]

Really great videos, Jim. Thanks as always.

 

[junkyardhero]

Am I looking at this wrong? Aren't the "washers" supposed to form a bell against the bushing (convex) as opposed to a cup or concave? Maybe mine were backwards.

It depends on the year range. One goes one way and one goes the other. I don't know which though.

depends on the year, bushing type (one piece or two, oe or aftermarket) and who the manufacturer is.