Hawk brake pads - worth it?

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rmchrgr

rmchrgr

Skate And Destroy
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So I currently have the SSBC aluminum KH style replacement calipers on my car with their regular pads that come with the calipers. When brake torquing the car or holding it at the line while revving the engine, the car won't hold past 1,200-1,300 rpm. There is a line lock in the front brake line, same result.

I have read that the SSBC pads they give you are not so much and I am beginning to wonder about them myself. The car stops fine otherwise but it just wont hold before a launch. The brakes are all new and everything works as it should. They were bled properly and the rear brakes are adjusted correctly. The MC is sized correctly for the caliper pistons and the pedal ratio is also correct for the car. Yes, the calipers have small pistons but they should be able to hold the car a little better.

So considering everything is good and working and short of going to a 'better' caliper, the only thing left to ponder was the pads.

Was thinking about trying out a set of Hawk Performance pads to see if they would help hold the car a little better. Anyone use these pads with this type of setup? I've read good things about them but they are a little pricey at around $100/set.

Thanks for any input.

- Greg
 
I run Hawk HPS on my daily '73 Dart.
Can't give a real good comparison as I went from 20/30 year old semi-metallic brake pads to the Hawk HPS. My goal was to improve front brakes and the car's front/rear bias. They seemed like an improvement over what I had at first, but not shockingly big. For finetuning my brake system I could use a 1/16" smaller MC perhaps to make the fronts grab a little better. I would be looking for something with a little more bite if I weren't planning on swapping to a complete front Wilwood brake-system.
 
BigBlockMopar said:
I run Hawk HPS on my daily '73 Dart. Can't give a real good comparison as I went from 20/30 year old semi-metallic brake pads to the Hawk HPS. My goal was to improve front brakes and the car's front/rear bias. They seemed like an improvement over what I had at first, but not shockingly big. For finetuning my brake system I could use a 1/16" smaller MC perhaps to make the fronts grab a little better. I would be looking for something with a little more bite if I weren't planning on swapping to a complete front Wilwood brake-system.
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My master cylinder is 15/16 so pretty small already.

What has more bite than Hawk pads?
 
I honestly believe you'll find the problem to be in the rear if you are talking about the converter pulling the car through the brakes.
 
The factory brake system wasnt designed to be able to powerbrake the car or hold the car at a launch. Although if you have a line lock it should hold them
That being said you might not have enough pushing force apllied to hold the front.
Are you running power assist brakes or manual brakes?
Also why are you holding it at such a low rpm? A good launch rpm should be up in at least the 2k - 3k range. Plus are you describing when you go to launch or are trying to powerbrake the car and do a burnout?
 
Well, I have used them but, not on a drag car...on a rally car. If you want more 'bite', look at the CoF... coefficient of friction. The higher, the more 'bite'. You are actually looking for more 'stiction' (non-moving CoF); they are usually related but not identical. It might be worth looking at the CoF for your current pads versus the Hawks. There is more than one grade of Hawks (Red, Blue,....) so you may have to look at several sets of numbers.

I ended up using Porterfields for the variety of CoF's available, and used that to balance the F/R proportioning. That was for non-Mopar use, so you would have to check them to see if they have them for your car, but that may be another source to try. Porterfields have had the reputaion of not tearing up the rotors as readily as the Hawks, but that may not be a factor for your use.

In your case, I would have to wonder what diameter of rotor you have front and rear? The force and diameter have to work against the axle torque; the smaller the diameter, the less holding torque.

And just curious as to how much HP/torque on the motor.....
 
Perhaps the pads you have need to be warm to work properly. I use Hawk on our road course car, and they need to be warm before they start to really bite, and they are well worth the money in our application.
 
Thanks for the replies. I realize that pads are usually more of a consideration in a road race application but I think they may play a role here. Rotors are Kelsey Hayes replacement 11" diameter x .81" thick. Not tiny but not huge. I have not measured the force at the calipers but its enough to stop the car under normal circumstances and haul it down to a stop from a 1/4 mile pass. Had to use the second turn off but the car stopped. :D

I've tried to power brake the car after driving it around for a while so the pads should have been plenty warm, no difference. I'm thinking that the calipers don't produce enough force to hold it at the line but perhaps if there were better pads in it that 'dug' in a little more it might help. This is what I'm unsure about.

As a side note - I actually spoke with Dynamic today about a new converter and I described the situation. They agreed that not holding the car could be both the converter and brakes. They also said it was really not beneficial to rev the car at the line and its actually good to launch from as low an rpm as possible. My car idles around 1,100 so I'd basically be coming off idle on launch.

I might just be stuck with this combo for now. :dontknow:
 
375inStroke said:
Perhaps the pads you have need to be warm to work properly. I use Hawk on our road course car, and they need to be warm before they start to really bite, and they are well worth the money in our application.
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That is a darned good point. That is another reason I went with Porterfield compounds.... not as heat dependent.

OP, what exact Hawk pads do you have?
 
nm9stheham said:
That is a darned good point. That is another reason I went with Porterfield compounds.... not as heat dependent.

OP, what exact Hawk pads do you have?
Click to expand...

I don't have Hawk pads right now. That's why I am asking about them.
 
Check out the Porterfield R4-S compound. Has a high CoF. I just could not quickly find if they have the pad shape to match the SSBC pad; the SSBC site seems prety short on detialed tech info.
 
nm9stheham said:
Check out the Porterfield R4-S compound. Has a high CoF. I just could not quickly find if they have the pad shape to match the SSBC pad; the SSBC site seems prety short on detialed tech info.
Click to expand...

Thanks, i will check them out.
 
66fs said:
Are they supposed to take OEM K-H pads? Not sure why they cannot haul you down fast... Did you have the original K-H calipers? Did they brake the same?
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I guess so but I'm not sure. I had drums on the car originally. I swapped to the KH setup because I was adamantly against moving the wheels out any farther which is what most aftermarket brake kits do. Only after I ordered this stuff did I realize that Wilwood has a 'minimum offset' kit which only moves the wheels out .20". I could have lived with that but I found out too late. It also allowed me to keep the wheels I had on the car so it sort of saved a little money. Not really but you get the idea.

I actually just spoke with SSBC and they suggested using Hawk pads, #D-43. I might give them a shot to see if they work. They also agreed that the brakes should hold the car a little better than they are.

First thing they asked though was how much pressure was at the caliper and that I can't really answer. I have been meaning to check it with one of those pressure gauges that you screw into the bleeder hole. They said there should be a minimum of 1,100 psi. I have a feeling there isn't that much but I need to get the gauge to verify.
 
Wilwoods have no dust seals. Does it rain, snow or have dirt on the road sometimes where you live. I went with the Mopar 11.75 unicast rotors and '76 single piston calipers from a Dodge Monaco. Rears are Dr Diff's Econo-kits with 2006 Mustang Cobra R discs and calipers all powered by a 15/16" master cylinder without power assist. The car is so light it doesn't need it. All big bolt pattern stuff though, including the upgrade to an 8 3/4" rear end, aftermarket axels and now 3.91's with TrueTrac.

It's the best balanced brake system I've ever driven in a Mopar. It's very predictable. I also run an anti-lock-up valve to the rears. (see pic) It doesn't lower brake pressure, just takes out the pressure spike to stop rear wheel lock-up in a sudden panic type stop. It's amazing.
 

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jbc426 said:
Wilwoods have no dust seals. Does it rain, snow or have dirt on the road sometimes where you live. I went with the Mopar 11.75 unicast rotors and '76 single piston calipers from a Dodge Monaco. Rears are Dr Diff's Econo-kits with 2006 Mustang Cobra R discs and calipers all powered by a 15/16" master cylinder without power assist. The car is so light it doesn't need it. All big bolt pattern stuff though, including the upgrade to an 8 3/4" rear end, aftermarket axels and now 3.91's with TrueTrac. It's the best balanced brake system I've ever driven in a Mopar. It's very predictable. I also run an anti-lock-up valve to the rears. (see pic) It doesn't lower brake pressure, just takes out the pressure spike to stop rear wheel lock-up in a sudden panic type stop. It's amazing.
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I live in NY. I don't drive the car in inclement weather if I can avoid it. My car is also pretty light. (3,000 lbs)

Again, I stayed with the KH type setup because I wanted to keep the front wheels in the same place. The later factory stuff and most of the aftermarket kits push the wheels out almost an inch. I don't like the look and pushing the wheels out can also cause tire fitment issues. My old '71 Dart had this setup and the front tires would rub all the time, even with 14" wheels. Plus, factory iron calipers and rotors are ridiculously heavy, probably 30+ lbs on either side over my current parts.

My issue here is either 1) not enough pressure at the calipers or 2) need better pads.

If it comes down to being a poor combination of parts that can't do what I'm asking them to do, I will start over and get a different brand. These SSBC calipers are basically the only option in an aluminum caliper if you want to stay with the OE KH type setup.
 
I think in your case I would try a tad smaller diameter MC first if you have enough pedaltravel left currently.
 
BigBlockMopar said:
I think in your case I would try a tad smaller diameter MC first if you have enough pedaltravel left currently.
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Can't go much smaller than a 15/16" bore. I don't think there is an off the shelf aluminum MC in 7/8" for our cars but don't quote me on that. Cass does not carry them, neither does Mark Williams. I have read about people using the FWD ones but I don't think they fit without modification, I believe the mounts are different. I don't want to deal with putting a new master in either. I hate brake fluid.

I tried an adjustable push rod but to get more leverage it put the brake pedal too high up off the floor which was weird and unsafe. It's good where it is now with the original rod. I think it's likely just the size of the caliper pistons, (45mm) they probably don't generate enough clamping force.

So again, rather than throwing expensive parts at this situation (calipers), brake pads are probably the easiest and cheapest step to take for (potentially) better bite into the rotor.

And again, if the pads fail to hold the car, clearly the problem is elsewhere, namely the caliper pistons. If that's the case, I'm probably looking at that minimum offset Wilwood kit for 10" drum spindles or an Aerospace Components set for original KH brakes. Both of those are around $800 so I'm not really looking forward to that day since I already spent a pretty penny on the current setup.
 
rmchrgr said:
... Plus, factory iron calipers and rotors are ridiculously heavy, probably 30+ lbs on either side over my current parts...
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In reality the cast iron calipers are only about 10 pounds, so the real weight saving is only about 5 pounds per caliper. In return, you have all the problems that aluminum brings with it. Ask Corvette owners. What rotors are you running?
 
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