Header upgrade

[gumper]

Thinking of upgrading my 1 5/8 Hooker Competition headers while my engine is pulled. Curious if there would be a significant power increase by using a larger primary tube setup. This is what I have:
408, around 11.6:1
Ported Performer RPM heads
65cc chambers, 270/232 @.500, 280/240 @.600
Solid cam, 250/254 @.050, 588/600 lift, .010/.012 lash
Rons toilet injection on alcohol
Timing set at 35*
Manual VB 727 with ~4800 stall 8” converter
4.30 gears, 28x10.50 tire
Weighs 3250 with driver

It had a Mopar purple .557, [email protected], .028/.032 lash solid cam that I am replacing with the new one listed above. The old cam was running at 4* retarded. Hopefully the new one works better. Best the car ever ran was 11.01@119 in Seattle. We mainly race at a 1/8 mile track with a 5300’ elevation running 7.20-7.30. Want to run 7.0-7.10.

Like I said it has 1 5/8 hookers into 3” collectors connected to a 3” x-pipe dumping in front of the axle. Was looking at TTI stepped headers, or their 1 7/8. Using a manual steering box, and not using the factory shift linkage. Also looking at ditching the torsion bars for coil overs. Don’t want to cut out the inner fenders.

 

[yellow rose]

Thinking of upgrading my 1 5/8 Hooker Competition headers while my engine is pulled. Curious if there would be a significant power increase by using a larger primary tube setup. This is what I have:
408, around 11.6:1
Ported Performer RPM heads
65cc chambers, 270/232 @.500, 280/240 @.600
Solid cam, 250/254 @.050, 588/600 lift, .010/.012 lash
Rons toilet injection on alcohol
Timing set at 35*
Manual VB 727 with ~4800 stall 8” converter
4.30 gears, 28x10.50 tire
Weighs 3250 with driver

It had a Mopar purple .557, [email protected], .028/.032 lash solid cam that I am replacing with the new one listed above. The old cam was running at 4* retarded. Hopefully the new one works better. Best the car ever ran was 11.01@119 in Seattle. We mainly race at a 1/8 mile track with a 5300’ elevation running 7.20-7.30. Want to run 7.0-7.10.

Like I said it has 1 5/8 hookers into 3” collectors connected to a 3” x-pipe dumping in front of the axle. Was looking at TTI stepped headers, or their 1 7/8. Using a manual steering box, and not using the factory shift linkage. Also looking at ditching the torsion bars for coil overs. Don’t want to cut out the inner fenders.

There was a set of 1.875 TTI headers for sale here on FABO.

I have tested step headers, merge collectors and step headers with merge collectors until I was sick of it, and neither the step or the merge collectors did squat.

You didn’t mention the LSA...I hope it’s not more than 109. Even with those heads, 109 is about as wide as it should be before you start giving up ET in the gear changes.

IMO, if you are going to do a step header, or use merge collectors or use a 4-2-1 header, you have to develop and make everything work with those styles of headers and collectors. I know the 4-2-1 headers use a very small primary tube and that design with a merge collectors will seriously over scavenge the chambers. So you need to know that and make the cam timing for that system. I think a 1.875 primary with a 3.5 inch collector is a must. A 3 inch collector is way too small for use with mufflers.

Also, keep in mind almost every header has a collector that is too small and way too short. If you are running full exhaust, it should be collector diameter all the way back. If you aren’t running full exhaust the collector should be about 18-24 inches long as a start and test from there.

That’s what I’d do. Also, if by some stretch of luck, you can find a set of Hooker 5303 headers i would buy those. It’s what I run, on 340 inches. They are like hens teeth, but I’ve used enough of them that I know they work. I’ll also be on the dyno hopefully by June, and I’ll test the 1.875 headers against a set of 1.750 headers I have access to, just to show that big headers dont kill torque.

 

[gumper]

There was a set of 1.875 TTI headers for sale here on FABO.

I have tested step headers, merge collectors and step headers with merge collectors until I was sick of it, and neither the step or the merge collectors did squat.

You didn’t mention the LSA...I hope it’s not more than 109. Even with those heads, 109 is about as wide as it should be before you start giving up ET in the gear changes.

IMO, if you are going to do a step header, or use merge collectors or use a 4-2-1 header, you have to develop and make everything work with those styles of headers and collectors. I know the 4-2-1 headers use a very small primary tube and that design with a merge collectors will seriously over scavenge the chambers. So you need to know that and make the cam timing for that system. I think a 1.875 primary with a 3.5 inch collector is a must. A 3 inch collector is way too small for use with mufflers.

Also, keep in mind almost every header has a collector that is too small and way too short. If you are running full exhaust, it should be collector diameter all the way back. If you aren’t running full exhaust the collector should be about 18-24 inches long as a start and test from there.

That’s what I’d do. Also, if by some stretch of luck, you can find a set of Hooker 5303 headers i would buy those. It’s what I run, on 340 inches. They are like hens teeth, but I’ve used enough of them that I know they work. I’ll also be on the dyno hopefully by June, and I’ll test the 1.875 headers against a set of 1.750 headers I have access to, just to show that big headers dont kill torque.

108* LSA. My headers go into 3” exhaust through an x-pipe. Probably 3’ long after the collectors.

 

[gumper]

There was a set of 1.875 TTI headers for sale here on FABO.

I have tested step headers, merge collectors and step headers with merge collectors until I was sick of it, and neither the step or the merge collectors did squat.

You didn’t mention the LSA...I hope it’s not more than 109. Even with those heads, 109 is about as wide as it should be before you start giving up ET in the gear changes.

IMO, if you are going to do a step header, or use merge collectors or use a 4-2-1 header, you have to develop and make everything work with those styles of headers and collectors. I know the 4-2-1 headers use a very small primary tube and that design with a merge collectors will seriously over scavenge the chambers. So you need to know that and make the cam timing for that system. I think a 1.875 primary with a 3.5 inch collector is a must. A 3 inch collector is way too small for use with mufflers.

Also, keep in mind almost every header has a collector that is too small and way too short. If you are running full exhaust, it should be collector diameter all the way back. If you aren’t running full exhaust the collector should be about 18-24 inches long as a start and test from there.

That’s what I’d do. Also, if by some stretch of luck, you can find a set of Hooker 5303 headers i would buy those. It’s what I run, on 340 inches. They are like hens teeth, but I’ve used enough of them that I know they work. I’ll also be on the dyno hopefully by June, and I’ll test the 1.875 headers against a set of 1.750 headers I have access to, just to show that big headers dont kill torque.

Any educated guesses on the power I’d gain by going from the 1.625”/3” headers to a 1.875”/3.5” header with my setup?

 

[yellow rose]

Any educated guesses on the power I’d gain by going from the 1.625”/3” headers to a 1.875”/3.5” header with my setup?

With what you have and being on alcohol you could see 30-40 HP.

BTW...where are you running 1/8 mile at 5300 feet around Seattle???????

 

[gumper]

With what you have and being on alcohol you could see 30-40 HP.

BTW...where are you running 1/8 mile at 5300 feet around Seattle???????

30-40 is enough to make it worth it to me. The 1/8 mile track is in Montana. We raced in Seattle this past August.

 

[IQ52]

I tested the (now) $180 1-5/8" Summit headers vs the TTI stepped headers a few year back. On a 600 HP 424"/360 there was a 1 HP average gain from 3,000-6,000 rpm with the TTI and a 11 HP peak gain at 6,400. Not worth the extra $500 in my book.

 

[yellow rose]

I tested the (now) $180 1-5/8" Summit headers vs the TTI stepped headers a few year back. On a 600 HP 424"/360 there was a 1 HP average gain from 3,000-6,000 rpm with the TTI and a 11 HP peak gain at 6,400. Not worth the extra $500 in my book.

I’ve had markedly different results. I’ll post results and video of my dyno testing, if we actually get past this flu crap before July. I’ve tested it enough that I’m confident in what will happen. Done it on GM and Ford too.

 

[j par]

I tested the (now) $180 1-5/8" Summit headers vs the TTI stepped headers a few year back. On a 600 HP 424"/360 there was a 1 HP average gain from 3,000-6,000 rpm with the TTI and a 11 HP peak gain at 6,400. Not worth the extra $500 in my book.

I guess I got lucky and bought my cheap Summit headers 5 years ago when they were still under $140.. no scrapes or scratches on the bottoms shipping was free and did not interfere with my z bar for my clutch... When I look at the high price of the TTI headers it seems like when you're in for a dime you're in for a dollar and you might as well get the ceramic coated ones and also you need their special z-bar or have to modify your own all with no free shipping...
by the time I got done looking that tti's they were well over $1,000 for everything...

 

[IQ52]

I’ve had markedly different results. I’ll post results and video of my dyno testing, if we actually get past this flu crap before July. I’ve tested it enough that I’m confident in what will happen. Done it on GM and Ford too.

The Summit vs the TTI? Be interested to see your results whatever you were testing.

 

[j par]

Now if someone could prove to me I would get 30 or 40 more horsepower under 6K RPMs maybe we would have a different story here..

 

[yellow rose]

Now if someone could prove to me I would get 30 or 40 more horsepower under 6K RPMs maybe we would have a different story here..

You’d know now if it wasn’t for the shut down. I tried to sneak over there and get it done, but one dyno was way to busy, one was not very cooperative and the other one is I think 74 so until he gets the all clear I’m in a holding pattern.

I have a dyno 10 minutes from here, but he is fighting the city over noise, and his dad passed away last Saturday. This guy and his dad are two of the nicest guys I’ve met. His dad wasn’t doing well and all he wanted to do was to make it to his 82nd birthday may 8th. I’ll miss the old codger.

 

[yellow rose]

The Summit vs the TTI? Be interested to see your results whatever you were testing.

No, it will be Hooker 5303 verses Hooker 5204. If someone wants to test a header other than those two, and you are close, let me know and I’ll test them, if I don’t run out of time.

 

[justinp61]

I'm running Hedman 1 7/8" headers on my dart, they have a slip fit 3 1/2" collector. Years ago when I was starting my 408 build these headers were recommended by Ryan Johnson. He said on his dyno they made more power than any other passenger car header he'd tried.

Hedman Husler Race Headers 75140

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

I tested the (now) $180 1-5/8" Summit headers vs the TTI stepped headers a few year back. On a 600 HP 424"/360 there was a 1 HP average gain from 3,000-6,000 rpm with the TTI and a 11 HP peak gain at 6,400. Not worth the extra $500 in my book.

Thanks for this. I kind of felt the same thing when I switched over with my 410 from Hedman 1 and 5/8 with a 3 inch exhaust to a tti step header....it felt like 15 or less gained.

 

[j par]

I'm running Hedman 1 7/8" headers on my dart, they have a slip fit 3 1/2" collector. Years ago when I was starting my 408 build these headers were recommended by Ryan Johnson. He said on his dyno they made more power than any other passenger car header he'd tried.

Hedman Husler Race Headers 75140

The big question is how much more? The tti's make more horsepower as well.. one...

 

[j par]

Is the bang worth the buck?...

 

[gumper]

Obviously it would be nice to have actual numbers on 1 5/8 vs 1 7/8 headers. 20 or more is enough for me to say it’s worth the money. Trying to squeeze out every tenth I can.

 

[yellow rose]

Obviously it would be nice to have actual numbers on 1 5/8 vs 1 7/8 headers. 20 or more is enough for me to say it’s worth the money. Trying to squeeze out every tenth I can.

If you can wait until June or so I’ll post the results. I’ve done it many, many times so I’m very sure of what will happen. I don’t use 1.625 headers on anything. 1.750 is the minimum.

The biggest killer of big tube headers is junk cam timing. I’ll leave it at that, but with your displacement and fuel, there is zero chance of the 1.875 headers losing power. Anywhere.

BTW, if you get the March issue of Hot Rod, you can read the article about cam timing. Billy Godbold talks about headers and cam timing. Very interesting stuff.

 

[justinp61]

Obviously it would be nice to have actual numbers on 1 5/8 vs 1 7/8 headers. 20 or more is enough for me to say it’s worth the money. Trying to squeeze out every tenth I can.

I'd say there isn't one number, too many factors to call it. He did tell me they made more power than TTI's 1 7/8" header too.

 

[gumper]

If you can wait until June or so I’ll post the results. I’ve done it many, many times so I’m very sure of what will happen. I don’t use 1.625 headers on anything. 1.750 is the minimum.

The biggest killer of big tube headers is junk cam timing. I’ll leave it at that, but with your displacement and fuel, there is zero chance of the 1.875 headers losing power. Anywhere.

BTW, if you get the March issue of Hot Rod, you can read the article about cam timing. Billy Godbold talks about headers and cam timing. Very interesting stuff.

Unless race season gets pushed back further I’d like to be running by June 6th. I dread the thought of putting bigger headers in. The Hookers are a mother to put the bolts in the head.

 

[j par]

BTW, if you get the March issue of Hot Rod, you can read the article about cam timing. Billy Godbold talks about headers and cam timing. Very interesting stuff.

Just as long as you're aware of why this statement doesn't bode well for you...lol...

 

[Wyrmrider]

all marketing bs what slight of hand is he pulling this time
dual energy?
Thumper style
all those mopar cams with really long exhausts?
remember 110 fits all

 

[Marcohotrod]

have used many headers over the years, 1.625" - Hedman and Eagle, 5204 Hooker 1.750", 5303 Hooker 1.875". witnessed many dyno tests, trying different headers-no big deal. Have a friend with a wheelstanding big block- he say the headers got smashed and she did not slow down from 9.5 secs. how about the dyno testing Dave and Steves did smashing headers-no big loss.

 

[70aarcuda]

on your coil over conversion....what are you using?