Hei conversion troubleshooting
- Thread starter smokinnjokin
- Start date
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skidmark
Well-Known Member
Looking at your pics, the spade on the red wire looks flat doesn’t have the curved edges, is it making a good solid connection?
Joe can you try putting the four pin somewhere else for right now to see if it is for some reason feeding voltage through the ground? Say firewall or fender just to check it? Weird one for sure.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is very hard to get on and off. excellent connection
No tach, the signal wire has a wire nut on the end and hangs down under the distributor.
So tomorrow, I'm going to mock the HEI back up with a new coil and module and see what happens.
I'm still a little hung up on the W/G orange and black wires and how that connection can supposedly be reversed. If it is an oem mopar distributor, wouldn't the car not run right with the original distributor connector and factory wiring harness? They only hook up one way, no way to reverse it.
As you can see in the above picture of my module mount, I currently have orange hooked to W, and black hooked to G. Again, car starts and idles beautifully. If i try to reverse them, the car won't start and backfires occasionally. So that should confirm they are in the correct position, right?
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
.............eh not exactly..........
There has been "some history" of rotor phase problems because someone offers modified Mopar reluctors. I don't know whether they are hype or not. BUT I DO know that "back in the day" once in awhile you'd run across severe cap tracking which I now realize IS one indication of rotor phase misalignment. To put this another way, "something mechanical" wrong in the distributor. Until you actually check this as I've suggested, you won't know.
Also there is at least one case on record where a Mopar pickup was color coded wrong. Now, maybe some body installed the magnet backwards. Maybe it somehow became reversed.
The thing is, you have big trouble here, and can not make assumptions.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
Ok, this is getting insane.
Put a brand new module, brand new coil and hung all the HEI stuff back on the car.
Engine will rev ok in park, as soon as you get any load on it, starts backfiring and hesitates bad.
Disconnected field wire, no difference. Changed timing from 15 to probably about 20 btdc, no difference.
Checked coil positive terminal and ignition control module B terminal, both getting full 13-14v when poor running condition is happening.
Put my see-through rotor cap on. With no advance in, rotor fires on leading edge. With vac advance in, trailing edge. Stays pretty close to centered on contact the whole time. And when shining the timing light to see the rotor passing the contact, it only occasionally lights up as it is passing, usually i can only see the spark arcing from rotor tip to contact.
The spark, however is weak and orange. It is super intermittent. Gets brighter and fainter as engine stumbles and runs poorly.
I don't know what else to try at this point. I guess moving the module off the distributor so It can't ground to the engine block is the last thing I have not tried. After that, i guess its back to points.
Put a brand new module, brand new coil and hung all the HEI stuff back on the car.
Engine will rev ok in park, as soon as you get any load on it, starts backfiring and hesitates bad.
Disconnected field wire, no difference. Changed timing from 15 to probably about 20 btdc, no difference.
Checked coil positive terminal and ignition control module B terminal, both getting full 13-14v when poor running condition is happening.
Put my see-through rotor cap on. With no advance in, rotor fires on leading edge. With vac advance in, trailing edge. Stays pretty close to centered on contact the whole time. And when shining the timing light to see the rotor passing the contact, it only occasionally lights up as it is passing, usually i can only see the spark arcing from rotor tip to contact.
The spark, however is weak and orange. It is super intermittent. Gets brighter and fainter as engine stumbles and runs poorly.
I don't know what else to try at this point. I guess moving the module off the distributor so It can't ground to the engine block is the last thing I have not tried. After that, i guess its back to points.
Wow really weird, has to be something simple. I can send you another stock setup distrib to try if you want it or a tested four pin from Kem? Was actually leaning toward phasing myself but you just got rid of that and having it on two units is probably near impossible. Joe you hooked up to ported vacuum on the vac advance?
Hey @Mattax any ideas your the engineer.
Hey @Mattax any ideas your the engineer.
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Joe where was it getting hot the module heating it p? Really nothing should make the distrib hot but engine heat. No idea what would happen if you put voltage through the pick up????? Can try a junk one to find out though...….
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
No, I have advance hooked up to the full-time vacuum. Should it be on ported? I thought it was good to have that advance coming in at idle.
As far as heat, I think it was just engine heat I was feeling on the HEI coil and module. I just got back from a liquor store run in the car with points on it and the factory dist and coil feel hot, about the same as before. Maybe engine is running on the warm side, its not overheating and runs good, 180degree thermostat and obviously my hand is not calibrated. Also, the bad running condition (with HEI) does not get worse as the engine warms up, it is consistent from cold start.
I actually gapped my points too before putting the dist back on, found they had worn down to 0.05". Set them to 0.013 and the car didn't seem to care one way or the other.
So I really don't know what to do at this point with my 2 electronic distributors, 2 E-core coils, 2 4-pin gm modules, and relay wiring. I want to keep trying, I have to drive this car from KY to TX and back at the end of the month and was really hoping to do it with the improved mileage and parts availability/reliability of HEI. And if I give up and keep the points I will need to put the ballast back in before I burn up my stock coil.
The only 2 items with the HEI I can think of might be a possibility are as follows:
Weak signal from the OEM chrysler distributor. The wires were pretty corroded from age, I cut back from the connector as far as I dared and used a self-soldering splice. Probably not the culprit, but I do wonder. I guess I could keep cutting back wire until I get bright copper but there isn't much to work with before I have ruined a pickup. The other thing that I wonder about is reluctor gap. I tried closer, 0.005" was where the slop in the vac advance plate would allow the contacts to touch if rotor was stationary. I also tried bigger, 0.012" and it seemed to run worse. Last try was around 0.07" and I left it there. No difference really. Reading other threads about HEI they all seemed to indicate reluctor gap isn't particularly critical.
The other thing I wonder about is some sort of ground issue. I tested the module and it grounds to the distributor well without the additional strap I have. So if there is somehow stray voltage to the block (if that is even a thing?) it is absolutely getting to the module. I have run the module ground strap to the dist hold-down bolt, and to a bolt on the intake manifold, shared with the VR ground, no difference.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
Oh, and my name is Andrew. I guess the avatar is confusing, its Smokin' and Jokin'.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Here is what I'd do ifyou have not. Check running voltage from dist. case to coil+ Should be "same as battery."
Have you tried another coil? Lost here whether or not EDIT Looks like you did
I don't think reluctor will cause this, as if it triggers at all it should fire. Usually a weal pickup will give hard starting, because as you rev it up, the output increases Be CERTAIN, however, about your pickup connections. Remove the pickup wires, CLIP your meter to them (resistance) and wiggle the wires and look for a change on the meter.
Unfortunately I don't even have a running Mopar presently that could use that dist or I could try and test it. If it's any help, LOTS of us have used these in various setups and they work......great....!!!
Have you tried another coil? Lost here whether or not EDIT Looks like you did
I don't think reluctor will cause this, as if it triggers at all it should fire. Usually a weal pickup will give hard starting, because as you rev it up, the output increases Be CERTAIN, however, about your pickup connections. Remove the pickup wires, CLIP your meter to them (resistance) and wiggle the wires and look for a change on the meter.
Unfortunately I don't even have a running Mopar presently that could use that dist or I could try and test it. If it's any help, LOTS of us have used these in various setups and they work......great....!!!
Sorry Andy way to many names. It should be ported for the vacuum advance. That can possibly be the issue. I do not remember the amount of vac advance on that one. Just say it is marked 10 on the arm that is 20 degrees on the crank. OK for numbers sake you set it at TDC with a light then hook up manifold vacuum that is 20 right from the start then you start adding the mechanical in as you add rpms, it get really high fast. Is it pinging right before the stumble?
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
I will switch over next time I try, I guess I don't quite understand, doesn't vacuum drop to 0 when you stomp on the gas on both ported and manifold vac? Didn't hear any pinging but It would have been hard to hear over the exhaust.
I actually clipped the old distributor connections off to check them thoroughly, they were good. Going to solder new ones on and try again.
If I had stray voltage getting through the ground, what would that look like on the meter? Coil hot to distributor case showing less or more than battery voltage? I am really electrical-illiterate.
If you need a new pickup let me know have a bunch of good used just the ride prob $3
The ported works differently from manifold. Yes manifold drops fast when you hit it but also go full right after.
Hey your inbox is full.
The ported works differently from manifold. Yes manifold drops fast when you hit it but also go full right after.
Hey your inbox is full.
Frank Mopar
Well-Known Member
Manifold vacuum pulls timing at an idle. Ported pulls vacuum when you crack open the throttle
Older engines always used manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum was designed for emissions.
Right now I wouldn’t use any vacuum until you get this straightened out.
Older engines always used manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum was designed for emissions.
Right now I wouldn’t use any vacuum until you get this straightened out.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
The only problem I would see with ground is if the distributor is tight enough to ground to the block, and the module properly grounded to dist. You might check THE MODULE MOUNTING SCREWS be sure they are not too long and allowing the module to be loose
The battery MUST be grounded to the engine block or it would never crank.
There is no connection to a coil case unless the coil is defective. I see you've got more than one coil, so I can't see that a problem
I am REALLY running out of ideas
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
Bench test it. Ground distributor, and plug body. Hook coil wire to spark plug. Verify spark works at highest drill speed. That will prove if module and coil works. If that works use timing light to on plug cable to verify trigger position of reluctor and pickup. Correct trigger is trailing edge of reluctor as it passes pickup. Also see where rotor points. Use sharpie to mark distributor body, you will see all 8, mark one or more, then see how they align to cap.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
Ok, I soldered all the connections back up and tried again with the HEI, same problem.
Unhooked the advance and tried. Set base timing to 10. Still does it. Advanced more, same problem, retarded it same problem.
The module is mounted tightly to the mount plate and distributor.
Correct. With any combination of the above parts I have the same problem. Put points back on car runs fine.
Unhooked the advance and tried. Set base timing to 10. Still does it. Advanced more, same problem, retarded it same problem.
The module is mounted tightly to the mount plate and distributor.
Correct. With any combination of the above parts I have the same problem. Put points back on car runs fine.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Is it possible that when you swapped the distributor wires that you didn't reset the initial timing to compensate?
It might be close enough to run crappy one way, but be too far off with the correct orientation.
Swapping those wires changes the initial timing point quite a bit.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
I remember having to do that when I tried it with the first (ebay/rehrenberg) distributor but didn't do it with this one. Lemme go try.
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
Ok, swapped wires and made the radical timing change to get it to show 10 btdc. Ran like crap, couldnt rev without backfiring and it wanted to die. So I'm pretty sure orange to W is the correct pickup wiring.
KitCarlson
Well-Known Member
More on the subject of pickup polarity.
Mopar Electronic Pickup Polarity and Rotor Phase
Mopar Electronic Pickup Polarity and Rotor Phase
smokinnjokin
Well-Known Member
@halifaxhops Ray would you happen to have the advance specs on my '67 318 points distributor? Probably unrelated, but I am just curious how it compares to the other 2 electronic distributors I have tried.
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