hello from New Zealand, 18 spline head ache a833.

[chrisskates2004]

In my opinion someone installed that transmission on a motor that wasn’t drilled for a 4-speed so they had to shorten the shaft. If it were my car I would ch the crank and change the input shaft.

makes sense i was told it came from a 426 but anything could happen

the end looks machined well and centered tho, changing the crank is big job, more modification to the input shaft would be preferred,

is it a thing to fully prep the end, and weld an extension on and machine that down true, proper full pen tig and a cap and fill of flux core mig?

 

[mopar head]

No way I`d try to add a piece to the shaft. I`d lop the end off up to the taper, precision drill and bore, to a press fit with a proper hardness stock a few thou. oversize. Tig weld. chuck up in a lathe, "if possible" and turn any runout to size. You or your machinist better be good.

 

[replicaracer43]

No syncros, and dog teeth look extremely worn also. Cool conversation peice is all its probably worth

 

[AJ/FormS]

have you heard of people full prep the end and welding a extension to the end ?

Yes; I spent 6 years in a major transmission rebuilding shop. I was on the Standard trans line, moving from beginner stuff, to farm trucks, to 18-Wheelers, to industrial. Along the way I learned to do rearends as well
This repair was quite popular. Not just for passenger cars but also for bigger stuff.
But hang on, your short stub input may be better suited to working with the ball-bearing type pilot that fits inside the convertor hub. I have seen a spray-welder make short work of building that pilot up. However, whether the hub of the 18spl disc will slip over the repair is another question.
Going from a memory in about 1980, Here's how our shop did it;
The machinist bored the Input gear about a half inch deep. Then fabricated a pilot extension to fit. Then Vee'd the two parts and while the parts were still on the lathe, it was precision welded by the Convertor welder. Afterwards the thing was brought into alignment with a lathe-grinder.
Now, I only saw this going on, in passing, as I worked on a different line, and my station was IDK, 20>30 ft away. So what happened to those inputs and similarly-repaired mainshafts afterwards, I cannot say. By the time they came to me, I couldn't even see the repair. I suppose they got some type of hardness treatment.
In my 6-year stint with that company, I cannot recall ever seeing a warranty for this type of repair. To tell the truth, I never saw any warranty work at all...... lol

 

[chrisskates2004]

No way I`d try to add a piece to the shaft. I`d lop the end off up to the taper, precision drill and bore, to a press fit with a proper hardness stock a few thou. oversize. Tig weld. chuck up in a lathe, "if possible" and turn any runout to size. You or your machinist better be good.

this is a better idea, i was thinking of a asme IX kinda of prep and weld,

clean up on the input shaft is a good idea, its a shame the length all I need is about an inch

 

[chrisskates2004]

No syncros, and dog teeth look extremely worn also. Cool conversation peice is all its probably worth

i was hoping it wasnt too bad, dogs still available to buy ?

 

[chrisskates2004]

Yes; I spent 6 years in a major transmission rebuilding shop. I was on the Standard trans line, moving from beginner stuff, to farm trucks, to 18-Wheelers, to industrial. Along the way I learned to do rearends as well
This repair was quite popular. Not just for passenger cars but also for bigger stuff.
But hang on, your short stub input may be better suited to working with the ball-bearing type pilot that fits inside the convertor hub. I have seen a spray-welder make short work of building that pilot up. However, whether the hub of the 18spl disc will slip over the repair is another question.
Going from a memory in about 1980, Here's how our shop did it;
The machinist bored the Input gear about a half inch deep. Then fabricated a pilot extension to fit. Then Vee'd the two parts and while the parts were still on the lathe, it was precision welded by the Convertor welder. Afterwards the thing was brought into alignment with a lathe-grinder.
Now, I only saw this going on, in passing, as I worked on a different line, and my station was IDK, 20>30 ft away. So what happened to those inputs and similarly-repaired mainshafts afterwards, I cannot say. By the time they came to me, I couldn't even see the repair. I suppose they got some type of hardness treatment.
In my 6-year stint with that company, I cannot recall ever seeing a warranty for this type of repair. To tell the truth, I never saw any warranty work at all...... lol

this chat is really helpful, as above the bore and fit is the best idea i think, vee and TIG weld possibly a cap to ASME IX also, machine and finish. we dont have a convertor welder so itll be done on the lathe or the tuner on a motor drive

a long needle roller bearing may be an option also?

theres only an 1 1/8 in it, for the input shaft being too short,

its .75 vs .59 build up so it wouldnt be too hard to build it up and the hub for the clutch is 1.1675 so we have a bit of room to work with. if i built it up to .75 i would have to make a custom pilot bearing

is 18 spline GM only ? a harness treatment also is something ill need to look into. we all dont like to see warranty work LOL

either or a custom made shorter bellhousing, i was going to use one of these

 

[kiwigtx]

Welcome @chrisskates2004 from sunny Auckland.

You're probably gonna lose these guys with all those metric measurements.

BTW....nice Crocs.

 

[chrisskates2004]

Welcome @chrisskates2004 from sunny Auckland.

You're probably gonna lose these guys with all those metric measurements.

BTW....nice Crocs.

hello fellow kiwi

Ive tried to keep it imperial as best as i can LOL

Im lucky i can switch between metric and imperial with my trade

I was wondering when someone was going to say something about them LOL

 

[Outsder]

Back to your Post #24 questions....
MP Chevy- NHRA/AHRA Modified Production Class, cubic inch to total vehicle weight stick shift race class
My source for input Shafts- Started parting out B-body GTXs and RT cars in the '70s for my '65 Dodge race effort; used the 4spd and Dana cores, also bought a couple complete slick-shifted boxes from Chrysler when they were available from Direct Connection
Red stripe- count the teeth on all the gears and use the chart that I've seen posted here and there to verify

As for the pics of your gears, looks quite a bit of use and they have already been re-dressed, when mine got that bad I would send them back to Joe to get new blocker rings welded on. They can do that many times. I believe his son now runs Liberty's; always excellent service in my dealings with Joe. You may or may not know, but it's absolute, trans like this race only, no downshifting ever, and even though you can shift without the clutch after 1st, not recommended, and Joe got mad at me for doing it, but still did complimentary warrantee repair.

If you want a relatively inexpensive serious race trans, I imagine you could place wanted add here and the B site and find an input shaft. I have seen evidence that there are at least half a dozen others here that ran Liberty stuff back in the day. And then I would send the gears to the Liberty Co. for renew service.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I graduated hi-school in 1972, after several years of working both systems side by side..... plus fractions, so I got my indoctrination there. It has served me well.
Chris
I gotta wonder why you want to go thru all this trouble of trying to stretch that nose out into the crank, when it would be so much easier to just stick a ball-bearing assy into the convertor register, which allows the snout to be over an inch shorter anyway. I have been running the same bearing in mine since 1999 with no maintenance, and no noise, and no stinking seized oilite bushing. This even uses the factory BH.
>Speaking of bearings;
Ima thinking, how will you marry the GM T.O. bearing to the Mopar T.O. fork?
> and if you use the Liberty slick-shift guts, how long will those clutch teeth last on the street, I mean, you know that there are no synchros in that set. Furthermore, on the street, you can't even wind the engine up in Second gear never mind into Fourth.
I mean maybe you can where you live; but where I live, getting caught could cost me my Driver's License.
I mean 6500 in Second with 3.91s in the back, is already 76mph, and in Third is 100; (with 27" tires and the T/A gearset)
>I modded my A833 to street slick-shift status on Second and Third, which, IMHO, is all that is needed. This unit shifts like normal, up or down, but at 7000 I can just ram it in overpowering the brass like it's not even there.
I installed this USED Commando gearset in about 2004, and have been slamming it hard ever since, mind you with only 295/50-15s on the back, and only a pinion-snubber on it; so I know that 1x23 A833 can take a licking.
> My engine used to eat clutch discs, not A833s. But, I made a work-around for that, lol.............

> Since you already have a standard 1x23 box , I don't get it.
If you are concerned about Power-Handling, I can almost guarantee you that You cannot put enough street-tire, nor suspension, under your car to even tickle the limit.
>But if drag-racing:
My car goes 93 in the Eighth, which points to about 430hp. She's only been down the track on the one occasion, with 325/50-15 BFG Drs; but I shifted it at WOT, same as I do on the street, so that's no picnic!
She 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range, with full street supension, so the trans is barely stressed ..........

 

[Phreakish]

This should be the bearing many people talk about:
Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

Being that the tip of the shaft is there for support and not integral to transferring torque, I think a pressed on bush to bring the tip diameter up to size and cut/ground true would be just fine. Tig it at the tip to keep it coming off, and it should be golden. Obviously the smaller diameter of the tip never caused a failure in it's previous application, and so there shouldn't be a need to make a whole new input shaft or source a replacement.

That said, a new input would definitely be the best route to go, but that's if time and money are of no concern I suppose.

 

[chrisskates2004]

Back to your Post #24 questions....
MP Chevy- NHRA/AHRA Modified Production Class, cubic inch to total vehicle weight stick shift race class
My source for input Shafts- Started parting out B-body GTXs and RT cars in the '70s for my '65 Dodge race effort; used the 4spd and Dana cores, also bought a couple complete slick-shifted boxes from Chrysler when they were available from Direct Connection
Red stripe- count the teeth on all the gears and use the chart that I've seen posted here and there to verify

As for the pics of your gears, looks quite a bit of use and they have already been re-dressed, when mine got that bad I would send them back to Joe to get new blocker rings welded on. They can do that many times. I believe his son now runs Liberty's; always excellent service in my dealings with Joe. You may or may not know, but it's absolute, trans like this race only, no downshifting ever, and even though you can shift without the clutch after 1st, not recommended, and Joe got mad at me for doing it, but still did complimentary warrantee repair.

If you want a relatively inexpensive serious race trans, I imagine you could place wanted add here and the B site and find an input shaft. I have seen evidence that there are at least half a dozen others here that ran Liberty stuff back in the day. And then I would send the gears to the Liberty Co. for renew service.

all good info and great to know thanks,

Yep, I've had a chat at liberty and they seem quite good to deal with which is nice,

sounds almost like a drag box only,

i might have post on here for that input shaft.

Ill have to look out for that tooth count chart on here wherever it is

 

[replicaracer43]

It IS a drag only box. You cannot shift it normally, it has to be very aggressively shifted, and cannot be down shifted.

 

[chrisskates2004]

It IS a drag only box. You cannot shift it normally, it has to be very aggressively shifted, and cannot be down shifted.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm not much use on the streets

 

[chrisskates2004]

It IS a drag only box. You cannot shift it normally, it has to be very aggressively shifted, and cannot be down shifted.

if you dont mind explaining about how aggressive i need to be with shifting up, and i assume down shifts are done whilst stopped and back to 1st?

 

[AJ/FormS]

Aggressive in my box, is to make the decision to shift, and then "blam" it in there. I still clutch it, even at WOT, Cuz you know, I'm not too excited about repointing the teeth during the Summer, when I just want to drive. With mine, I found a short stick really helps with the "blamming"; and I don't run much free-play, nor much clutch departure, so it doesn't take much pedal to disconnect.
If yur running a standard shifter in an A-body, on the short-tail trans, with a Tee-handle, you gotta know a few things;
1) you better loc-tite the Tee-handle down so it will never move, and
2) cuz if it moves, your knuckles will most likely be headed for the dash on the 2-3 shift, and
3) if they are not, then you're not being aggressive enough
lol. for this reason;
4) I run a ball on the shifter, cuz it hurts less when the stick hits, the stop. but
5) I no longer run the shifter in the factory position. I installed a long tail, and relocated a short stick to about 6 inches to the rear and snuggled it up to my thigh. Then fabbed up some stout shifter rods.
Since that day, I have never missed a shift, even at 7200.

 

[chrisskates2004]

i like this reply

sounds like there is no soft start with this box
much involved in re-sharpening the teeth?
loc tite at the ready!
sounds like I've got to be pretty brave with this box,
it does sound like it needs to be near the thigh/pistol holster, not way out far in front by the tape deck
solid mount rose joint shift rods?

 

[AJ/FormS]

I bought a few feet of cold-rolled seamless tubing, maybe .5 inch od

I cheaped out and just cut the ends off some old rods I had; stuffed them into the ends and welded them in

 

[chrisskates2004]

I bought a few feet of cold-rolled seamless tubing, maybe .5 inch od

I cheaped out and just cut the ends off some old rods I had; stuffed them into the ends and welded them in

hey if it works, it works.

ill have a look and see what the speedway racers use here in New Zealand i think they use similar 0.5" pipe with thoes rose joints welded into the end to give adjustment

 

[Ironracer]

I graduated hi-school in 1972, after several years of working both systems side by side..... plus fractions, so I got my indoctrination there. It has served me well.
Chris
I gotta wonder why you want to go thru all this trouble of trying to stretch that nose out into the crank, when it would be so much easier to just stick a ball-bearing assy into the convertor register, which allows the snout to be over an inch shorter anyway. I have been running the same bearing in mine since 1999 with no maintenance, and no noise, and no stinking seized oilite bushing. This even uses the factory BH.
>Speaking of bearings;
Ima thinking, how will you marry the GM T.O. bearing to the Mopar T.O. fork?
> and if you use the Liberty slick-shift guts, how long will those clutch teeth last on the street, I mean, you know that there are no synchros in that set. Furthermore, on the street, you can't even wind the engine up in Second gear never mind into Fourth.
I mean maybe you can where you live; but where I live, getting caught could cost me my Driver's License.
I mean 6500 in Second with 3.91s in the back, is already 76mph, and in Third is 100; (with 27" tires and the T/A gearset)
>I modded my A833 to street slick-shift status on Second and Third, which, IMHO, is all that is needed. This unit shifts like normal, up or down, but at 7000 I can just ram it in overpowering the brass like it's not even there.
I installed this USED Commando gearset in about 2004, and have been slamming it hard ever since, mind you with only 295/50-15s on the back, and only a pinion-snubber on it; so I know that 1x23 A833 can take a licking.
> My engine used to eat clutch discs, not A833s. But, I made a work-around for that, lol.............

> Since you already have a standard 1x23 box , I don't get it.
If you are concerned about Power-Handling, I can almost guarantee you that You cannot put enough street-tire, nor suspension, under your car to even tickle the limit.
>But if drag-racing:
My car goes 93 in the Eighth, which points to about 430hp. She's only been down the track on the one occasion, with 325/50-15 BFG Drs; but I shifted it at WOT, same as I do on the street, so that's no picnic!
She 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range, with full street supension, so the trans is barely stressed ..........

Hi AJ, hope all is well! I pulled out of a gentleman's club (AKA I'm sure you can guess what kind of bar that was back in the early 90s with my Coronet Florida highway patrol I was said I was doing fine until I hit second with the big block in the 355 gears I was doing over 85 and second when he fired me up. We had a little roadside talk and test. One of my passengers woke up and started screaming and cussing at him. It was funny the guy in the passenger seat in the state trooper car was wearing a black hood. The guy wanted me to walk a straight line on the gravel off the side of the road where it went into a ditch I told him there ain't no way I'm going to do that he told me to slow it down and then went on his way and then I went on mine which was straight to the house after that! Sorry to interject but every now and then someone will throw a post out there it'll remind me of some crazy crap I did back in the day

 

[chrisskates2004]

Hi AJ, hope all is well! I pulled out of a gentleman's club (AKA I'm sure you can guess what kind of bar that was back in the early 90s with my Coronet Florida highway patrol I was said I was doing fine until I hit second with the big block in the 355 gears I was doing over 85 and second when he fired me up. We had a little roadside talk and test. One of my passengers woke up and started screaming and cussing at him. It was funny the guy in the passenger seat in the state trooper car was wearing a black hood. The guy wanted me to walk a straight line on the gravel off the side of the road where it went into a ditch I told him there ain't no way I'm going to do that he told me to slow it down and then went on his way and then I went on mine which was straight to the house after that! Sorry to interject but every now and then someone will throw a post out there it'll remind me of some crazy crap I did back in the day

never a stress, happy to spark a memory from back in the day

the car sounds well cool,

 

[chrisskates2004]

This should be the bearing many people talk about:
Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

Being that the tip of the shaft is there for support and not integral to transferring torque, I think a pressed on bush to bring the tip diameter up to size and cut/ground true would be just fine. Tig it at the tip to keep it coming off, and it should be golden. Obviously the smaller diameter of the tip never caused a failure in it's previous application, and so there shouldn't be a need to make a whole new input shaft or source a replacement.

That said, a new input would definitely be the best route to go, but that's if time and money are of no concern I suppose.

that bearing is a great idea,

yep, its well small for a input tip i thought,

if i can get away without buying a new input shaft ill try that

 

[chrisskates2004]

I graduated hi-school in 1972, after several years of working both systems side by side..... plus fractions, so I got my indoctrination there. It has served me well.
Chris
I gotta wonder why you want to go thru all this trouble of trying to stretch that nose out into the crank, when it would be so much easier to just stick a ball-bearing assy into the convertor register, which allows the snout to be over an inch shorter anyway. I have been running the same bearing in mine since 1999 with no maintenance, and no noise, and no stinking seized oilite bushing. This even uses the factory BH.
>Speaking of bearings;
Ima thinking, how will you marry the GM T.O. bearing to the Mopar T.O. fork?
> and if you use the Liberty slick-shift guts, how long will those clutch teeth last on the street, I mean, you know that there are no synchros in that set. Furthermore, on the street, you can't even wind the engine up in Second gear never mind into Fourth.
I mean maybe you can where you live; but where I live, getting caught could cost me my Driver's License.
I mean 6500 in Second with 3.91s in the back, is already 76mph, and in Third is 100; (with 27" tires and the T/A gearset)
>I modded my A833 to street slick-shift status on Second and Third, which, IMHO, is all that is needed. This unit shifts like normal, up or down, but at 7000 I can just ram it in overpowering the brass like it's not even there.
I installed this USED Commando gearset in about 2004, and have been slamming it hard ever since, mind you with only 295/50-15s on the back, and only a pinion-snubber on it; so I know that 1x23 A833 can take a licking.
> My engine used to eat clutch discs, not A833s. But, I made a work-around for that, lol.............

> Since you already have a standard 1x23 box , I don't get it.
If you are concerned about Power-Handling, I can almost guarantee you that You cannot put enough street-tire, nor suspension, under your car to even tickle the limit.
>But if drag-racing:
My car goes 93 in the Eighth, which points to about 430hp. She's only been down the track on the one occasion, with 325/50-15 BFG Drs; but I shifted it at WOT, same as I do on the street, so that's no picnic!
She 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range, with full street supension, so the trans is barely stressed ..........

you make some good points, knowing both systems is a good thing
i havent seen these BB assy you are talking about, never heard of them,

i was looking at either making a custom thrust bearing carrier or getting a new sized bearing retainer from brewers. Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists
perhaps i have underestimated how tall this gear set it, a slick 2nd and 3rd would be the best idea. ive bought it now so were committed to the cause. if i can sort the input shaft to mopar length ill have 2/3 OEMS to be able to sell it to
we all like a workaround LOL
I ended up buying 2 at the same time, long story with it but its what i have now, unless i can sell this GM a833 then im stuck with it
sounds like a fast rocket, the other idea if i get this GM a833 sorted ill be able to sell it on a bit easier here in nz or australia.

im still wondering what a " ball bearing assembly" is

the next job is getting a bell housing , new lakewood, ally welding up the hole on the left and welding one on the right hand side,

"ive attached a few opposite side 3 speeds ive got for people to see the left and right had side differences, these are usually made for the straight 6 and slant 6 valiants"

 

[chrisskates2004]

This should be the bearing many people talk about:
Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

Being that the tip of the shaft is there for support and not integral to transferring torque, I think a pressed on bush to bring the tip diameter up to size and cut/ground true would be just fine. Tig it at the tip to keep it coming off, and it should be golden. Obviously the smaller diameter of the tip never caused a failure in it's previous application, and so there shouldn't be a need to make a whole new input shaft or source a replacement.

That said, a new input would definitely be the best route to go, but that's if time and money are of no concern I suppose.

oh sorry my mistake,

so this fits in the first step in the crank shaft ?

man my mind is blown, i just figured it out LOL