Help needed with sb 318

[H Monster]

OK, so I have new timing chain and gears in hand. Newb, rookie, know nothing in me was going align dot to dot, and leave it there, thinking that would correspond to TDC on cylinder #1. I've watched several videos and nobody ever goes past dot to dot to correlate that with what all else has to be aligned to match. (That is a blatant hint to you youtuber video guys to get busy and make a video to explain it)

So then to straighten this out to be correct, I am hearing.........

1. Align dot to dot.......which correlates to TDC exhaust stroke.
2. Rotate cam shaft dot 180 degrees.....straight up......which then correlates to TDC ignition stroke ( I would know that if I have the #1 plug out and monitoring cylinder movement..........and distributor cap off and rotor is pointing to #1 cylinder.
3. Swap plug wires #1 to #1, #8 to #8, and so on.

Then if I have my heart set on being able to set timing, once it's back together enough, need to once again get #1 cylinder and distributor rotor back to TDC, then make a makeshift timing mark of some kind on my big pulley to correspond to timing marks on timing cover.

If I'm understanding right, if I was to put a timing light on #1 wire now, light would fire 180 degrees out of phase. When the mark, if I had one, was on opposite side. To get it to fire for correct timing now, I'd have to use light on the wire running to #6 cylinder?

 

[Dartswinger70]

yes if installing a new chain go dot to dot, but then put the timing cover on and balancer and the timing marks on the balancer should be at 0 on the timing cover marks. Then turn the crank till the mark lines up at zero again (1 whole turn) and drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder and install wires with that orientation on the cap, OR if the current setup with number 1 wire on cyl 6, Id pull the distributor up turn rotor 180 so it is pointing at #1 and drop it back in move wires so they are installed correctly and set timing. with the number 1 wire on 6, distributor is installed 180 off.

 

[volaredon]

Not necessarily. He said something about a 79-older water pump and a timing indicator with"O" on the pass side. Sounds like a mix match.

 

[H Monster]

So to clarify what I think I'm hearing, when timing chain gears are dot to dot, that corresponds to TDC of the #1 cylinder exhaust stroke. Then, since cam gear is 6 inches, crankshaft gear is 3 inches, that is 2:1 ratio, so if you lined up timing mark on harmonic balancer, then turned crankshaft 1 full turn to line up again, that rotates cam shaft one half turn, or 180 degrees, at which time now TDC for ignition stroke #1 cylinder. #1 plug would fire there. (Normal operation.......not way mine is rigged now)

So on to NEW drama. Went and checked, and with cap and rotor removed, I have roughly 10 inches headspace above the distributor. Above that is a hard deck. If it takes more room than that to pull a distributor, it is staying where it is. Plug wires staying where they are. I'd have to drop the engine to gain more space.

But.....engine is running as is. Would be desirable to rig it right, but runs as is. And now for new problem with timing chain. I figured if nothing else, could line up existing gears, dot to dot. Then pull off old and without moving anything install new. Nothing would be changed, except deletion of a worn out timing chain. Not that easy. I can see the dot on the crankshaft gear, the smaller one. I can find NO dot on camshaft gear. Is it even possible to install that inside out?

Green arrow points to crankshaft dot. Cam dot ought to be straight up or straight down. Not one either place.

 

[H Monster]

On secondary timing indicator, this was found installed under bottom right water pump bolt. Pointed down, more or less. I was of the opinion it may also have been used as a timing marker? Probably missing a pin or something on the end?

Still doesn't matter as big pulley installed in place of harmonic balancer doesn't have any timing marks on it. BUT, could find or borrow a harmonic balancer and install it long enough to set the timing, then swap it out back to the big pulley.

 

[Dartswinger70]

depending on what year engine it is timing mark would be on the passenger side of engine yes. I think 1970 it moved to the drivers side on car engines. And yes you are correct you could leave the distributor the way it is and swap timing set and it should run if it runs now. That is very strange on the cam timing dot. is there a dot anywhere on the cam? also Id add that you dont have to pull the distibutor all the way out just lift it enough to turn the rotor 180 degrees and drop back in the slot. Thats if you want to wire the distributor up correctly if not leave it where it is especially if you can time it and you have enough room to turn the distributor body to time it.

 

[H Monster]

Realize many have not waded all the way thru the thread, but all this recent nonsense started just to replace a shade tree engineered AC Delco alternator setup that wasn't charging, with MOPAR style one wire alternator. Had to pull it all apart to get that one broken bracket bolt out so could put it back.

What I took off was older cast iron water pump......the style and age of which may have had a timing mark bracket down low on passenger (right) side......if memory serves, it was done what way. We don't know the origin of the engine, but if original was same as a mid 70's era Dodge D600, those all look to also have the cast iron water pumps on them. They look to be different setup than any mid 70's era Dodge car or pickup I've seen. So when engine swap was made, they may have just left cast iron water pump on. But also had the more modern aluminum timing cover with date stamp on it of 1986. Date stamp cast on this engine is 1983. So a big batch of mixed and miss-matched parts of unknown age or origin. Does not have harmonic balancer. Has a big 4 slot pulley instead, in front of which is mounted a PTO shaft (runs off crankshaft) that powers a hydraulic pump that feeds at least four functions on the beast. So as it sits, nothing up front to set timing with. But we can find one of those for temp use.

The old timing chain we are looking at may well be the original for this engine. That is some ugly black soot on the gears. Spoke to previous owner and he said he never touched timing chain, so is same as it was when he bought this "salvage" engine to swap it in. To me chain has a lot of slack and gears look worn down. If going to replace, now is the time.

If both gears are keyed and can only be put on one way, as long as I don't move anything, it should go back together as it sits. Would have to pull camshaft gear to turn it over to see if missing dot is on the wrong side. Replacement looks to me like it will only go on one way.

We still don't know who was responsible for rigging the AC Delco alternator.

 

[Dartswinger70]

I wonder if there is timing marks on the back side the flywheel side? for using a timing light?

Here is what "AI says" in reference to a 318 marine engine (boat engine)

Unlike automotive versions, most 318 marine engines lack a traditional timing tab on the harmonic balancer; instead, an arrow on the bell housing points to the mark on the flywheel

 

[volaredon]

Vans and motorhomes had it on the torque converter, there was a hole in the bell housing

 

[H Monster]

Looked all around the bell housing around flywheel......found this in a pan on the bottom......two openings. Can see the flywheel teeth on one, nothing thru hole. But is only held in place by three bolts, so when I pull the oil pan will also pull this pan to have a look see. My guess is this is where timing mark will be found. If not........back to the front solution.

 

[H Monster]

Also pulled the eccentric from front of cam shaft. This was orientation of the keyways and dot.

When I set new gears in same orientation to enable them to slide on, both dots on new gears were at the top, 180 or so out of phase of dot to dot. Only one key per shaft, so only one way to install new gears, so should be good to go. Before doing anything, will rotate shafts so new gears will install dot to dot, then check orientation of #1 piston and position of distributor rotor relative to both of those.

Can still find no dot, arrow or any other indication on cam shaft gear.

 

[volaredon]

It's at the top of cam gear as pictured.

 

[H Monster]

The new cam gear does have a dot, and yes, it is at the top. Old existing cam gear should also have a dot or some kind of mark at same place. I can find nothing.

 

[PRH]

Functionally, the dots being 12/12 or 6/12 is the same.
Cam runs half speed.

For #1 TDC firing, the dots will be 12/12.

The dots at 6/12 is #6 firing.

 

[H Monster]

Not much time to work on anything today, but did do a bit more forensic diagnostics. With engine sitting as is, which looks to be 12:12 position on cam and crank gears.........pulled the #1 spark plug and it is sitting very close to TDC. You can feel it just below the threads. Then pulled distributor cap and rotor parked on or very near #6 position on the distributor. So as it sits, engine does appear to be at or very close to TDC compression stroke on #1 cylinder.

So as it sits, to make this right, go ahead and swap the timing gear and chain.......then if space allows, pull and rotate distributor shaft 180 degrees.......then swap plug wires around back to normal position. As long as distributor doesn't wander off too far, should start and run like that.

Also looking for some kind of standard harmonic balancer (temporary) to get crankshaft timing mark and timing cover mark lined up to where they are supposed to be. Then, without moving anything, swap temp HB out to the big pulley, then mark it to align with timing cover.

Side note.......inspection of #1 plug when it was out looked good to me. Has maybe 15 to 20 hours on it since installed new. Combined with observation engine does not smoke or burn oil, and seems to burn clean on fuel, it may set right and internals still in decent shape. No need to worry about replacement engine if this one doing it's job. Just need to get it back together to find out.

 

[H Monster]

Brief update......for those on edge of their seat.......wondering.

My cherry has been popped. First time for everything. To my recollection, had never pulled and rotated a distributor 180 degrees before......but have now. Came out, wiggled it a bit and dropped back in, no sweat. After that, swapped plug wires around to normal firing order......1:1, 8:8, etc. So that should be resolved such that a timing light should now work. Think some wires still need to be swapped around to get the length right for better fit but that will come later.

Have also pulled old timing chain and cleaned up block ready for new timing cover.

Pulled oil pan.....which had to be done to get rid of the debris and leaked coolant.......and.....yuck.

Cover under the clutch and flywheel even worse......found a bunch of short horse hair looking stuff packed in there.....lots of it. Hope that is not off the clutch plate.

Lastly, with oil pan off, this is the crankshaft I found. Better informed eyes than mine may be able to tell if this is cast or forged.

It is blacker than midnight in there. Oil not that old, but came out black and dirty. I can see why.

For some reason, seem to recall someone once told me it never hurts to put a can or two of seafoam in the crankcase and run it a bit right before draining. Something about cleaning it up. Internals of this thing are nasty......or so it seems to me.

 

[H Monster]

Any oil pan I"ve ever installed used a cork gasket. This one had what must have been RTV on one side, maybe cork on the other. What is preferred gasket method to put back on? Rubber seals on the ends hard and brittle. That thing may have been run really hot.

 

[H Monster]

guys, am about ready to start going back, and just discovered something new......found it in this old thread.....

Installing new timing chain on a 318, questioning the oil slinger

When I pulled the timing cover off........there was no such disk......slinger / shield, whatever you want to call it. Should there be? If yes, NAPA will likely have it. The gasket kit did include a felt disk of unknown purpose.

And comments in the link mentions the balancer will press against that disk? How is that possible? Install sequence would seem to be.........

timing chain crank gear
disk
timing cover (with crankshaft oil seal)
Harmonic balancer
pulley

So spins on inside and on outside, but nothing that actually spins touches anything fixed like the timing cover?

Lastly, when pressing in that oil seal, does it need some type of sealant? RTV? Grease?

 

[volaredon]

That cotton/wool thing, that's for older engines, Iike I believe the "poly" version which went away in '66/67, from what I see you have the LA not the poly. It's common for gasket sets to have "extra parts" used in "some models" but not all.

 

[RedFish]

There's a very old thread here about the felt washer behind the balancer. What engine you ask, I'm happy to recall anything. Good luck

 

[H Monster]

OK fellas, spared you all the gory details, but she is back together and running. Learned a lot and while it was a painful experience, glad I did it and did it myself. I know a whole lot more about this engine that I would have otherwise. That being said, could not have done it without your help. Not stupid, but was ignorant. Stupid can't be fixed, but lucky for me, ignorant can be.

Only real hiccup was when I was messing with distributor, I moved the timing off. Got that sorted and she fired right up and runs pretty good.

 

[H Monster]

BTW, the solution I came up with to establish timing marks....was went to a local salvage yard and found a real deal harmonic balancer off an early 80's era Dodge pickup with 318 engine. As things were going back together, slide that on to the crankshaft......then rotated the crankshaft until balancer reached TDC (it was close to start with). Then slide that off and slide the big 4 pulley contraption on........then used a permanent marker to mark TDC on the pulley.......opposite 0 on the timing cover. Had to mark both up as the distance between the timing cover mark and small diameter flange on pulley was too far to be useful as it was. Second photo shows timing marks that exists now. Using it like this will remain awkward as the radiator hose is in the way, blocking view. But since it is all open under and in front of that, can still get a timing light to work.

 

[H Monster]

One step forward......half step back. Test fired again today after topping up coolant, and all fluids.......as yesterday engine seemed to me to be running hot. Watched again today and even as temp gauge passed 200F, no real flow in radiator Not like it has in the past. A trickle......about like you would expect from the bypass. Thinking thermostat may be stuck close, went down to tap on it.........and in process, noticed blue flame coming out FRONT of left side exhaust manifold. There are two round holes there......one about 3/8" and the lower.....about 5/8" or so. See photo.......

What is supposed to be there? I vaugely recall seeing something like a freeze plug in there a week or so back, but nothing is there now.

 

[mygasser]

if you intend to blank it off just use a mig welder. it'll be fine.
neil.

 

[H Monster]

Better view.......top hole is threaded.....maybe 5/16 bolt. Large hole is smooth.