HELP with bodywork

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mshred said:
i dont understand what is so bad about the rattle cans....from what you guys are saying, you make it sound as though im going to totally ruin everything...im starting to get worried now....will the rattle cans work and hold up, or will it ruin the paint and not have it stick? i need to know because that will change everything for me.....like i said i cant spray the primer, its just not an option
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As it's been stated, rattle cans don't have a hardener in them, otherwise they'd be hockey pucks on the shelf. Any product that has a hardener/catalyst is going to be more durable than a product that just dries. It's the difference between curing and drying. Think concrete without Portland cement in it.
 
The few times I tried to use fizz can primer it shrunk, badly.
Now that I am in school for paint/body I have seen that type of system being used and how bad the results are. Wet sanding doesn't fill the scratches it will bring down the high part of the scratch to the level of the low part of the scratch. Wet sanding smooths the panel and the water makes it so the paper doesn't clog. Dry sanding does the same thing it just doesn't have the water to keep the paper from getting clogged. I prefer wet sanding and have found that as long as the panel is wiped dry you don't have the globs. Also k38 and k36 adsorb water if allowed to sit for extended periods of time. I would wait until you have the money to do it right, in the long run you will be much happier you did. Here are a few pics of the '72 scamp I am about to spray. I did the body work, primed, blocked 180 longboard, primed, blocked 180 long, primed, blocked 180 long, primed and wet with 600. It is a lot of work to do it right but it is less work and less money to do it once. Every thing has been wet sanded except the hood, at that point I still needed to block it out once more, and prime again and wet sand it.
-Ross-

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HEy Guys,

sorry its been awhile before i replied as i have been working really hard on the car. Let me clarify some stuff for you guys....the paintjob im going to be getting is free....the autobody guy at my dad's college (he teaches truck mechanics) is going to spray the car for only the cost of the materials, so i cant really send them the car to do the work for me. My father talked with the painter breifly the other day and said that he wants the car in a final grit of 600...should that be 600 wet? Also, here are my options that he layed out....he said that i could buy epoxy primer and use a roller to roll it on to the car....would that be effective or would it just be messy?

He also said that i could just go out and buy some bingo dabbers and dab the whole panel then block it all, or to go out and buy some guidecoat and rub it on and block it....In regards to the spray bomb stuff, he said i should be fine using it as long as its not a lacquer. He said it should be an enamel....

Im still shaping with 80 right now, but hopefully by the end of the week will have the car shaped with 180, then ready for primer....thats why i really need to decide what method im going to use for priming the car...some of you have said that the spray bomb primer will be bad, but then later have that it should be okay after i said its all i have....I know its probably not the best way to do the car, but its going to be a daily driver that isnt garaged so it will see the elements and i know that it being my first car its not going ot be perfect, and im fine with that....If the spray bomb stuff is a safe foundation, please just clarify that with me guys...but if it really really is that risky, are any of the other options i mentioned worth a try?

Thanks so much again guys
Matthew

p.s. to all of you who are bodyguys, my respect has gone up for you tenfold after doing this all myself
 
rednesss said:
Actually the water cleans out the "dust" from the areas between the aluminum oxide that comprises what makes sand paper, sand paper, and doesn't allow the paper to be clogged with material, soft talc, that will make it so that the grit doesn't contact the surface, but just push around the sanding dust. After about 2 seconds of sanding look at the paper, you'll see it is full of material, talc, etc.... now rub your hand over it and compare to a clean sheet. Wet sanding always keeps the grit "open" and thus more abrasive.
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I agree entirely, wet rubbing definately gives more cut than dry rubbing as rednesss has mentioned above, not only that, if you wet rub with a garden hose on low pressure it actually helps to remove any tiny grit particles from the paper and reduces the risk of sand marks/scratches caused from dirt or grit caught in the paper. I'm not a tradesman but I would class myself as a semi-pro as I've painted at least a dozen cars and wet rubbing primer (not bondo) is fine. Once I've hi-filled and all my repairs have been done I always prime it and guidecoat it then start wet with a 400 wet rub. Then prime it and guidecoat it again and give it a final wet rub with 600 or 800. Just make sure that you give the suface enough time to dry after wet rubbing before you apply the next coat of primer. If you're intent on using aerosol cans (bombs) I'd advise going as fine as 600 on your first wet rub as the bombs will not give the desired coverage of a spraygun and you won't lose as much of the product (primer) when rubbing. Of course the bomb approach is not ideal, however if you have no other choice then I think for primer it's ok. I hope this helps.
 
what about rolling on the epoxy primer? does that sound like a stupid idea to you guys? If i dont do that then im definatly going to go the spray bomb route, since its really my only option....ozziemozzie have you had any experience with spray paint primer in situations like this? Has anybody else had this experience?
 
mshred,
I work in an auto paint store. You can buy inexpensive 2K primers, epoxy or highbuild, OMNI/Shopline. We sell rollers for primers, not the type at Home Depot or Lowes. You can roll the primer, any imperfections,roll marks will be sanded smooth. It's not as easy to do with epoxy though, which takes alot longer to dry before you can even attempt to sand it.
I'd finish your body work with 180, sanding in an X pattern, wipe down, them prime/roll a 2K primer surfacer. You can get a quart of primer with activator for about $35 which would buy you 6 sraybombs that won't even have near the build!!!! Block with 180-up to 5-600grit. Depending on the color you may want to go finer, silvers/golds... if going basecoat/clearcoat.. Single stage non metallic 4-500 grit. Let the shop spray the sealer...

Bob
 
That sounds like a lot better advice then the fizz can route. Also a fairly decent price.
 
Hey bob,

thanks alot for the advice....should any auto paint store carry the special rollers i will need? also, is 2K primer surfacer the same as epoxy primer or is it high build primer? do i need epoxy and high build or just one or the other? and would a quart be enough to do the whole car in the desired coating i want?

ALso guys, when would you use spot putty? i bought some for the small imperfections in my body and was planning on using it after i primer and block if theres any small little chips that need to be filled...is this okay? how long does it take to dry?
 
"is 2K primer surfacer the same as epoxy primer or is it high build primer?"

No. 2K is just an industry name for modern 2 component, urethane high build primers. Epoxy primers, in my opinion, should only be used as the first coat sprayed directly onto bare, clean, prepped metal, with body filler going on top of that, then 2K primer over everything. Most of epoxies don't sand very good, and most of the 2K's sand like butter.


"ALso guys, when would you use spot putty?"

If it isn't catalyzed then the answer from me would be never. Kombi putty or it's like is not catalyzed and dries much like lacquer based products, I wouldn't recommend them. I've used this product quite a bit:

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Evercoat makes a similar product called "Easy Sand".

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So if you do use spot potty im assuming you should probably go over it with high build afterwards so its not just openly exposed, even when dry? And another quickie guys, when blocking the high build, if i find low spots that need to be built up with bondo, do i need to bring those spots right down to bare metal, or can i apply filler over the high build primer?

Thanks so much guys for everything really, this thread has been a great help...hopefully when my car is painted in a couple of weeks i will have some pics up for you guys

thanks a bunch
Matthew
 
mshred,
epoxy shouild be the first thing put down..But since you are going over old paint you will be okay. I would still have the entire car sealed before color... A quart probably won't be enough for the whole car. You will need to go to a auto paint store for the rollers...
You can add bondo over the prrimer... Spot putty use a 2k product..

Bob
 
Hey Bob,

I went to the paint store today and the guy there told me that he doesnt recommend rolling on a high build primer because by rolling it on it wont become high build, and that rolling a paint that uses hardener is impossible. He Also said that they dont carry special rollers for this, and this is a huge auto paint store, so i was a little confused. He pointed me towards a urethane based spray paint primer which he said will work just fine, only thing is that its not high build. Now im stuck again because he says they dont have rollers and doesnt recommend, but you guys are saying it should be fine.....not that i dont trust you guys, but has anybody ever actually rolled this stuff on?

Thanks again
MAtthew
 
Personally, I've never used a roller to put on anything but latex on my house. I've not heard of it being done in my neck of the woods. But then again I don't live where there are stringent EPA standards either. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to roll anything on though, aside from the finish being very uneven and needing a lot of blocking to smooth it out.
 
mshred,Where are you located??? Is there a PPG paint store near you??? Go to ppgrefinish.com to find a store near you. I've rolled both epoxy and highbuild.. it's not impossible, I have shops doing it on small areas. It is by no means smooth,but you will be blocking it... Also a true "urethane" is not available in a spray can. 2k products chemically dry. Put the mix in a sealed can, it will be jello next day...As far as not being high build when rolled, a good coat will equal or exceed one sprayed coat.. I mix it in small batches and do one panel at a time, then give it a 2nd coat later. I just think you will have a better*overall job this way than buying aerosol cans of primer. If you decide to go the spray cab route, use Upol High 5, part #791More expensive than duplicolor or evercoat but builds better.

Bob
 
Thanks bob for all the help so far...as for what im going to do for primer im still not sure, since im gonna recheck with my painted (after all he is the painter so he should know...i hope)....either way i go though i will definatly take your advice....thanks so much everyone for walking me through this stuff every step so far....dont mind if i keep asking questions, i only keep asking because i need help and i no good help is everywhere here

Thanks again
Matthew
 
Interesting thread......no advice for ya, cuz it would be one of many different opinions here. Keep the updates as you progress

Oh wait.....as stated previously, your final appearance no matter who paints it will only be as good and last as long as the prep and QUALITY materials you use now.
 
I didn't take the time to read the whole thread so its possible this may have been mentioned.

As crazy as it may sound a roller can be used to apply 2K filler primer in a pinch. I've done it on small projects before when I didn't want to dig out the gun or when moving or covering up other cars in the area would have taken too long. There are even some guys who have painted topcoat with rollers (google) with decent results. Since primer surfacer is going to get sanded to death its not hyper critical to get it on smooth and a good chemical resistant foam roller is good enough.

Edit: a quick scan of the thread shows this has already been discussed.
 
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