Homebrew Coilover setups

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MagicMan

MagicMan

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Hey guys , I found some torsion bar crossmember issues with my 69 dart last night as I was preparing to install larger torsion bars. I think the easiest way around this is to install coil overs up front. I know that they make ones that replace the factory shocks. With these I also know you need to reinforce the upper shock mounting area, I would like to see some ideas on how you are doing this. What are you guys doing to retain the lower control arm ? I am not looking to buy a whole new K frame setup. I already have upgraded front disc brakes and tubular upper a arms. Thanks for your help !
 
Believe me; easiest way is to make the bars work. What's the problem?? Clocking? Hitting headers due the engine being in the wrong spot? Torsion bar socket tear out?
 
Socket was torn out and repaired by previous owner. They did not clock it correctly when they welded it back in place. It's off by at least 20 - 25 degrees. So my options are A) cut out socket, rotate, and re weld B) cut out and replace entire crossmember C) ditch it and go coil over.
 
this isnt your subject. but this is what happened to me. 1959 ply wagon. stock 318. in 1969 my dad and i put a 1958 chrysler 392 Hemi in the ply. the extra weight put to much load on the torsion bar. so cranked the bar up. and bottomed the jacking bolt out. that started blowing the shock bushing out. so DONT bottom the jacking bolt out.
 
I ended up exactly where you are. I had upgraded all the front end with tubular upper and lowers, shocks and wilwood brakes. I had engine fitment issues and headers issues no matter how I shimmed the engine.

I sold all of my factory stuff for 1,500 and bought an AlterKtion. It was the best thing I've done to the car. Net cost 3,500$.
 
Fixing or replacing the cross member will be the most cost effective and "easiest" way to go about it.

What you DON'T want to do is used some half baked partial coilover replacement that leaves the stock K member in place. These cars were never designed to carry the weight of the car on the shock tower, which is what you do if you just install coilovers on a modified LCA. To do that, you need to reinforce the shock tower, which will be just as complicated as fixing your cross member. Slapping coilovers on a car that was never intended to have them is not a shortcut you want to take. It's not a band aid solution.

If you really want to go coilover, call Denny about his conversion or Bill at AlterKation. Both of those systems get it right and are proven to work well. Changing to coilovers is a complete suspension re-design, and both the HemiDenny and AlterKation do that.

And, you can fit everything past the torsion bar suspension. I did. Yes, I put some dings in my headers. But I also have 1.12" torsion bars, which by themselves created the problems I experienced. Even with 1" bars mine would have cleared without modification.

All suspension systems are a trade off, they all have advantages and disadvantages.

**Edit**

Ok, you got me, I didn't realize Denny was doing a conversion that leave the stock K in place. Like his full conversion, I'm sure it's a very well thought out solution. So, most of the partial replacements are half baked. ;)
 
Get your TB anchor mount welded properly and make sure its clocked correctly.

That's your low dollar fix period.
 
I have a set of Hemi Denny top mounts coming and will get a set of LCAs when he has some available. Changing to coil overs cause my torsion bars are in the way of the headers. Only difference is I will attach the top mount to my snout bar which is where Denny's upper support hoop is located.
 
bOb shingler said:
who says the a-bodies can't carry the weight of the front end on the shock towers?
Click to expand...

Everything I have read says it will only last for a short time before everything starts getting twisted out of shape.

That's why guys like HemiDenny are making support hoops.
 
momoparman said:
Get your TB anchor mount welded properly and make sure its clocked correctly. That's your low dollar fix period.
Click to expand...

I'm going to attempt that this weekend, it's going to be tricky. Previous owner used one of those crossmember repair pieces and stick welded the snot out of the socket onto it. If that doesn't go well then I will resort to a coilover setup.
 
72bluNblu said:
Fixing or replacing the cross member will be the most cost effective and "easiest" way to go about it. What you DON'T want to do is used some half baked partial coilover replacement that leaves the stock K member in place. These cars were never designed to carry the weight of the car on the shock tower, which is what you do if you just install coilovers on a modified LCA. To do that, you need to reinforce the shock tower, which will be just as complicated as fixing your cross member. Slapping coilovers on a car that was never intended to have them is not a shortcut you want to take. It's not a band aid solution. If you really want to go coilover, call Denny about his conversion or Bill at AlterKation. Both of those systems get it right and are proven to work well. Changing to coilovers is a complete suspension re-design, and both the HemiDenny and AlterKation do that. And, you can fit everything past the torsion bar suspension. I did. Yes, I put some dings in my headers. But I also have 1.12" torsion bars, which by themselves created the problems I experienced. Even with 1" bars mine would have cleared without modification. All suspension systems are a trade off, they all have advantages and disadvantages. **Edit** Ok, you got me, I didn't realize Denny was doing a conversion that leave the stock K in place. Like his full conversion, I'm sure it's a very well thought out solution. So, most of the partial replacements are half baked. ;)
Click to expand...

I was hoping you would chime in. If I go coilover it will be with Denny's new kit or something similar.

On another note what issues did you have running 1.12 bars ? I figure they would tear out crossmember sockets, any other issues ?
 
bOb shingler said:
who says the a-bodies can't carry the weight of the front end on the shock towers?
Click to expand...

Pretty much everyone. Me included. Look at the shock towers. There's nothing to them- a large, cantilevered arm that is reinforced only by the sheetmetal of the inner fender. With the torsion bar suspension pretty much all of the suspension forces are carried in the lower control arm, K frame, and torsion bar crossmember. The spindle, UCA, and shock are basically "along for the ride". They obviously transmit forces, but only a small percentage compared to what is carried by the LCA's and crossmembers.

All you have to do is put a jack under the K member and lift the front wheels off the pavement on an unreinforced car to see how these cars are not intended to carry much load in the vertical plane, just look what happens to the door and body gaps when the front of the car is jacked up. There's a ton of flex there. On my car I added frame connectors, torque boxes, and "J" bars that run from the firewall to the front of the frame and tie into the tops of the shock towers, as well as boxing the shock towers themselves. The difference in chassis stiffness is amazing, and I'm still running torsion bars.

If you run coilovers into the stock shock towers, you're placing ALL of the suspension loads directly onto the shock towers. They were simply NOT designed for that. Honestly, I think they're barely adequate for carrying the forces transmitted through the stock shocks, let alone all of the suspension forces. Which is part of the reason I boxed and reinforced them when I upgraded my torsion bars and tires, which increased the loads carried by the chassis. While I like Denny's solution to reinforcing the shock towers because it's easy for most folks to install, I would personally weld those reinforcements in, and would still consider adding J bars on the top side, or at least using the US Cartool reinforcements that are being made now as well.

You can see the J bars I added to my car as well as the tie in to the shock towers in this picture. I drilled through the landing plates and top of the shock tower and plug welded everything together. I also boxed the shock towers. You can also see most of why I felt it was necessary to add that kind of reinforcements...

IMG_1915_zps32183594.jpg


MagicMan said:
I was hoping you would chime in. If I go coilover it will be with Denny's new kit or something similar.

On another note what issues did you have running 1.12 bars ? I figure they would tear out crossmember sockets, any other issues ?
Click to expand...

I reinforced the torsion bar sockets on my Duster before I went to the 1.12" bars. The sockets fail often enough on A-bodies with the stock bars, the 1.12" bars have a 300 lb/in wheel rate so I wasn't going to leave that to chance. I run 1.12" bars on my Challenger with unreinforced sockets and have so for over 50k miles now, but the E-body's seem to have received better torsion bar socket welds than most of the A's I've seen, mine included.

The only other real "issues" are fairly minor, I mentioned that they hit my Doug's headers because of their increased diameter, so I had to dimple the headers a bit. And of course installing the torsion bar boots was a royal pain. I would also highly recommend Bilsteins or better for shocks when running bars that large, damping them is a whole new ballgame. I run the Hotchkis non-adjustable Fox shocks on my Duster, which were an improvement over the Bilsteins I was running initially.

Here's a picture of the 1/8" plate I reinforced the torsion bar sockets with. I tied it into the 1/8" landing plates for my frame connectors as well. Had I really been thinking, I would have just made a single reinforcing plate/landing plate. Next time!

IMG_5010_zps13f324a0.jpg
 
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