Hotchkis TVS for A-Body's!

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redlinegw

redlinegw

Shannon
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Check out the newest issue of Car Craft for a complete write up on converting my 69 Plymouth Valiant to a canyon carver using the Hotchkis TVS setup. This is the best bang for your buck suspension setup you can do with real performance! http://www.hotchkis.net/index.html?Vid=27

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I'm sure it is a great kit but at over $2,200 (kit price) plus an other $2,000+ for that wheel/tire package I don't know if I would call it the best bang for the buck.

What was the total price?
 
Can't afford it...don't buy it. For example, peolple always knocked Bill Reiley's awesome Alterkation in the beginning. Not anymore. Otherwise, don't knock it just on price alone. I saw this car at the Spring Fling and it truly is bad ***. The wheels are sweet $$$$ one-offs. I'm sure you can get other wheels that are cheaper. Shannon is a super cool dude and is no bullshitter. He owns Redline Gauge Works and does incredibly nice work on dash restorations. Wallet shock will always be the case for new products that deliver the goods (real R&D).
 
I haven't read the article yet but I did look at the photos. There was another rag article doing the Hotchkiss system to a B-body. They stressed that you can do it in stages and tested the car after each piece. So you don't need to drop the nickel all at once.
 
did i read this right, 2300.00 and it doesnt come with shocks or torsion bars? dont get me wrong i like the stock style upgrades but that seems liek an awful lot of cash. the price cant be too far off by the time you address your t bars, shocks, steering box, idler arm, pitman arm, and factor in some brake swap or upgrade, dollar for dollar i think youd be right there with an alterktion.
 
Looked through the article, but didn't read it (yet).

One thought on the lack of springs and shocks, is it possible that they don't need to be upgraded? I noticed in the article that the front swaybar is something like 1.5", substantially bigger than most setups. I know that there are two theories for handling, stiff springs and shock with a smaller swaybar to control body lean, the other is lighter shocks and springs, but a bigger swaybar. Don't know enough to say what the pluses or minuses for either system, only that there are supporters about both. If this system used a really big swaybar, it wouldn't need bigger torsion bars and shocks to create the same roll stiffness.

Just a thought.
 
Cool stuff. 8)

And expensive. The same kit has been out for a little while for the E-Body's. While there are some neat goodies specific to the Hotchkis set up, you can get close to its level of performance without spending that much.

Unlike the E-body set up, it appears the A-body tubular UCA's do not have a significant change in geometry vs other tubular UCA's. The E-body Hotchkis UCA's actually move one of the pivot locations to remove anti-dive. So, you could for example buy a set of Magnumforce double adjustable UCA's, save $260, and still get an alignment with more positive caster and negative camber.

Adjustable strut rods are nice too, but again, there are cheaper versions out there that perform the same function.

Tubular tie rod sleeves can be had for around $50, plus new tie rod ends. Rod ends can gain some clearance for rims with a larger backspace, but for a street driven car I'd argue regular tie rods ends are a better bet.

The Hotchkis sway bars are awesome, really things of beauty. Tubular (hollow), so, much lighter than their solid brethren. But also twice as expensive. And I'd wager most of us (including me) wouldn't notice the change in weight when driving the car.

The rear springs also look good, but the relocation is minor. There are already hangers out there with an additional hole to lower the car, and springs that will do the same, for less. Not the exact same result, but again, close.

With a little suspension knowledge and research you could set up a package that would get your car handling about as well for half the price of the TVS system. That said, the TVS system would save weight over solid sway bars and standard tie rod ends and bushings, etc. And my guess is that most people looking to upgrade their suspension wouldn't notice much, if any, difference. That's not to say that a professional driver wouldn't notice, but you could be in the same ballpark for a lot less money. The beauty of it is that its all designed to work together, so it takes the guesswork out of setting up a suspension system. Plus, for all the racer's, it sheds some weight. But if you're just looking for a better handling cruiser, its overkill if you don't mind doing some research.

Now, if I had the cash... :-D
 
DionR said:
Looked through the article, but didn't read it (yet).

One thought on the lack of springs and shocks, is it possible that they don't need to be upgraded? I noticed in the article that the front swaybar is something like 1.5", substantially bigger than most setups. I know that there are two theories for handling, stiff springs and shock with a smaller swaybar to control body lean, the other is lighter shocks and springs, but a bigger swaybar. Don't know enough to say what the pluses or minuses for either system, only that there are supporters about both. If this system used a really big swaybar, it wouldn't need bigger torsion bars and shocks to create the same roll stiffness.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

Hotchkis sway bars are hollow, so bigger diameter does not necessarily equal a stiffer spring rate. The Hotchkis bars are likely stiffer than a lot of the bars out there, but its not as much as the diameter would lead you to believe. They are a lot lighter though.

New t-bars and shocks would be the only way to go, running this set up without upgrading those would be a large waste of money, especially if you've got stock shocks.
 
i guess if you have the proper size t bars already it might work but most of us are doing engine swaps too and factory bars are less than ideal if you are looking to handle. just thinking if you start with a slant six small bolt pattern a body, the alter k is a no brainer if you are spending money.
 
jamesdart said:
i guess if you have the proper size t bars already it might work but most of us are doing engine swaps too and factory bars are less than ideal if you are looking to handle. just thinking if you start with a slant six small bolt pattern a body, the alter k is a no brainer if you are spending money.
Click to expand...


Not so sure about that....

Here's a list that includes all the similar parts to the Hotchkis system

Magnumforce Double Adjustable UCA's............................................$399
Adjustable strut rods (RMS #RMS2020)...........................................$199
Mopar XHD leaf springs (mancini #MRE19811982)............................$215
Steel tie rod adjusting sleeve (Mancini #MRE-34561).........................$60
Spring Hanger set (Mancini #MREAR0077).......................................$65
Adco 150 front sway bar kit (Summit #ACO-150)..............................$161
Adco 675 rear sway bar kit (Summit #ACO-675)..............................$135
Moog tie rod ends (Summit MOG-ES401R, MOG-ES401L)...................$96
U bolts, 7" (Mancini #MRE271)......................................................$30

Total : $1,360

Now, this is not the Hotchkis system, and my above comments stand. This setup will be heavier, but should be in the same ballpark handling-wise

Now, to complete the setup above to finish out the front suspension
Just Suspension 1" Torsion Bar.......................................................$180
Magnuforce 2" Drop spindles.........................................................$440
Flaming River 16:1 manual steering box..........................................$500
Moog Idler arm (Mancini #MOGK7086)...........................................$47
Moog Pitman Arm (Mancini #MOGK7075)........................................$47
RCD tuned bilstien shocks (Hotchkiss RCD-70-56665)........................$400
Moog Lower ball joints (Summit MOG-K781, MOG-K783)...................$96
LCA boxing plates (mancini #MREAR319).......................................$23

Total : $1,733

Grand Total : $3,093

So, at this point you're still $900 cheaper than the AlterK front suspension set up, and you've done the rear suspension as well. That will easily pay for a set of 11 3/4" front rotors (since you have a 73-76 pattern now), a set of 11 3/4 caliper brackets (~$100) and, if you really want, cover the new axles ($300) so you're LBP front and rear. Not to mention SUBFRAME CONNECTORS. You'd probably have enough left over to finish replacing any bushings etc that got missed here. And it can be done cheaper, you can save $200 right off the bat by using a Firm Feel power steering box, or rebuilding your manual box with a 20:1 ratio worm gear (available from Mancini). You can save another $120 by using stock spindles (available new at Summit for $320,CLP-6474SP-M) or even more if you can find a good set of used '73-76 spindles on eBay (usually ~$150-$200).

I'm not going to say that this set up will out-handle either the Hotchkis TVS or the RMS's AlterK, or that its equivalent to either. Both are really nice set-ups, and I'd be happy to run either of them if I could afford it. But, it will make your A-body (or any musclecar era mopar for that matter) handle pretty darn well for less than either of those set ups, and still remain fairly stock in appearance.
 
i'll buy the issue just to look at the car, even though i hate the hood.
otherwise i'm quite happy with the changes i've already made and i don't even have the swaybars yet.
 
i still think the hotchkis stuff is way to much money for stock type suspension. im sure it works good but for a few dollars more you can have a better end result and more room for headers. better steering. i have nothing against stock type stuff, but if you are going to spend that kind of money, why stay stock. i have no plans of ever buying either. rms makes a great product, its just not what i am looking to do, i did buy his upper a arms and strut rods. top notch. i like the upgraded stock stuff, just not for hotchkis kind of money. oh yeah, and the addco bars is a pos. i put one on my 69 dart. mounting brackets are a joke. if you are short on cash i guess it works.
 
72bluNblu said:
Hotchkis sway bars are hollow, so bigger diameter does not necessarily equal a stiffer spring rate. The Hotchkis bars are likely stiffer than a lot of the bars out there, but its not as much as the diameter would lead you to believe. They are a lot lighter though.

New t-bars and shocks would be the only way to go, running this set up without upgrading those would be a large waste of money, especially if you've got stock shocks.
Click to expand...

True, but the loss in stiffness isn't sustantial. The center of the bar does little in the way of resisting twist, so a hollow bar doesn't lose much in stiffness. As I recall, a 1.25" hollow bar is as stiff (or stiffer?) than a 1.125" bar, so a 1.5" hollow bar is going to be much stiffer than a 1.125" solid bar.

I know I should follow this with some links to prove my point, but my time is limited at this moment. I will try and follow up later.
 
Didn't go looking on their website, but found this there on a google search.

Stiffness of a hollow swaybare really depends on the wall thickness. No idea what wall the swaybars in this kit are.

BTW, never bought anything from them, don't plan on it in the near future (no money to spend), not defending their kit, just tossing a thought out.
 
DionR said:
Didn't go looking on their website, but found this there on a google search.

Stiffness of a hollow swaybare really depends on the wall thickness. No idea what wall the swaybars in this kit are.

BTW, never bought anything from them, don't plan on it in the near future (no money to spend), not defending their kit, just tossing a thought out.
Click to expand...

I've got a Hollow 1 1/4" sway bar from Hellwig on my car now. I had a 1 1/8" solid Addco bar on before. The hollow 1 1/4 IS stiffer.

And the hollow 1 1/4 bar weighs 8 3/4 lbs. and the addco 1 1/8" solid weighs 13 1/2 lbs. The hollow 1 1/8' bar weighs 7 3/4 lbs.

So running a hollow 1 1/8" will save you 5 3/4 lbs from a roughly equivalent solid bar. About half the weight savings from running a $100+ big block water pump housing.
 
The Hotchkis team just won all 3 classes at the Good Guys autocross event in Orange County this weekend, beating out some crazy high $$$$ suspended Camaros and Mustangs. They did have a little driver advantage with Mary Posi behind the wheel of her Camaro, that chick is soo freakin fast it is crazy!
 
redlinegw said:
The Hotchkis team just won all 3 classes at the Good Guys autocross event in Orange County this weekend, beating out some crazy high $$$$ suspended Camaros and Mustangs. They did have a little driver advantage with Mary Posi behind the wheel of her Camaro, that chick is soo freakin fast it is crazy!
Click to expand...

Oh Yea...Mary Posi...She sure is making a name for herself!!! She's pretty cute for an older lady!!!
 
Summit racing has the kit for $1852.99:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-80113/

The issue I was wondering about was the leaf spring rate is 130lbs/in, That is 30lbs/in less than the SS Springs. Any spring people know why this would be better?
The spring design looks nice being CNC'd bent, 1" lower stance, and rounded bends at the end rather than straight to the eye.
 
jrlegacy23 said:
Summit racing has the kit for $1852.99:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-80113/

The issue I was wondering about was the leaf spring rate is 130lbs/in, That is 30lbs/in less than the SS Springs. Any spring people know why this would be better?
The spring design looks nice being CNC'd bent, 1" lower stance, and rounded bends at the end rather than straight to the eye.
Click to expand...

Super stock springs are were designed for drag racing, not handling. And way too much arch for handling.

Mopar circle track springs have less rate than stock ones even. The big thing is to have a strong front segment that does rap up under acceleration off the corner and don't hop under braking coming into a turn. That second situation is greatly helped by proper choosen shocks.
 
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