Ignition setup recommendations

[gumper]

If you don’t want to read about my problem below I’m essentially asking what people may recommend for a new ignition setup on my alcohol burning 410 (the hemi build has to wait another year at least). Was leaning toward a 6al-2, pro billet distributor and whichever coil they recommend.

Finally get the motor back in my car, and now I’m having some stupid problem. I let go of the transbrake, the shift box activates which kicks the car to second, and the motor cuts off exactly 3 times. It’s like I pedal the throttle three times real quick off the line. Even footbraking it will immediately shift to second, and cut out. Disconnected the shift box, still cutting out. I’m using a 20 year old Unilite distributor with a Hyfire Viis box that’s been dependable up until this season. Have checked all over for loose wires, or other obvious problems.

 

[yellow rose]

If you don’t want to read about my problem below I’m essentially asking what people may recommend for a new ignition setup on my alcohol burning 410 (the hemi build has to wait another year at least). Was leaning toward a 6al-2, pro billet distributor and whichever coil they recommend.

Finally get the motor back in my car, and now I’m having some stupid problem. I let go of the transbrake, the shift box activates which kicks the car to second, and the motor cuts off exactly 3 times. It’s like I pedal the throttle three times real quick off the line. Even footbraking it will immediately shift to second, and cut out. Disconnected the shift box, still cutting out. I’m using a 20 year old Unilite distributor with a Hyfire Viis box that’s been dependable up until this season. Have checked all over for loose wires, or other obvious problems.

The box you have is so much better than the MSD box you are looking at it isn’t even close. I know the box has been running but that box takes one specific coil.

I’m a bit stumped on your issues but that is easily checked on a distributor machine.

Edit: I forgot to mention that a plug gap of .030 is as wide as I’d go. Not saying that’s the issue but on alcohol I’ve never seen any box like more than .030 plug gap. You get up over 14:1 or so and .025 is about the norm.

 

[RustyRatRod]

The box you have is so much better than the MSD box you are looking at it isn’t even close. I know the box has been running but that box takes one specific coil.

I’m a bit stumped on your issues but that is easily checked on a distributor machine.

Edit: I forgot to mention that a plug gap of .030 is as wide as I’d go. Not saying that’s the issue but on alcohol I’ve never seen any box like more than .030 plug gap. You get up over 14:1 or so and .025 is about the norm.

Yeah "it don't take much" to light it off. lol

 

[gumper]

The box you have is so much better than the MSD box you are looking at it isn’t even close. I know the box has been running but that box takes one specific coil.

I’m a bit stumped on your issues but that is easily checked on a distributor machine.

Edit: I forgot to mention that a plug gap of .030 is as wide as I’d go. Not saying that’s the issue but on alcohol I’ve never seen any box like more than .030 plug gap. You get up over 14:1 or so and .025 is about the norm.

Gapped .030, 12.8:1. Why is the Mallory box better? I’ve heard nothing but bad about the Unilite. Seems like it’s an act of God it’s lasted as long as it has. Everything on the car is how it’s been since 2017. The shifter issue started last year, but the other problems began on the first pass at the first race this year. I’m very frustrated, and can’t race the car until it’s figured out. Frustrated to the point that I’m debating putting the car on jacks and giving up on the sport after 23 years.

 

[gumper]

I’ll add to the mystery. The problem won’t replicate off the track. I tested it on the return road several times, and everything works fine. It only malfunctions when the tires hook hard.

 

[yellow rose]

I’ll add to the mystery. The problem won’t replicate off the track. I tested it on the return road several times, and everything works fine. It only malfunctions when the tires hook hard.

That’s interesting. If it’s only doing it when it hooks it could be the rear main jets are getting uncovered or something as weird as a wire that is only loose enough to give you an issue when it gets some bite.

Any time I run any magneto or any brand of 7 box I run a ground wire from each head to the body. The magneto and the bigger boxes can’t get enough ground. I hate electricity and how it behaves and certainly I’m not smart enough to understand or explain why the extra grounds help, but they do.

The first time I ran into it was on a blown alcohol car. It had a MSD 44 amp mag (they aren’t really 44 amps but MSD can fudge numbers and nobody calls them on it). The data logger was pissed off half the time. One run you would download the data and it was fine. Then the next run it would download junk. I had sent my Mag to Don Zig for an update and we were discussing stuff and that came up. He was the first to tell me to ground both heads. After that, we never had that issue again. So I started grounding both heads on everything with what I consider a big ignition.

If I’m reading your first post correctly you said you have the Mallory HyFire VIIs box. That would be a part number 667 box and that should be a digital box. Since it appears to be the Sportsman model, you have up and down arrows on the box with a screen and you can change the settings for the ignition right there on the box. You can also upgrade that box to VIIc by finding the hand held controller and a 10 pin cable. Then you can change the slope of the ignition curve and a bunch of other stuff and do it with the hand held.

If that’s what you have, you’d be going straight backwards with any 6 box. Firing alcohol isn’t like firing gas. I’m of the opinion that you can’t have “too much” ignition. Going to a 6 box is a backward move. And the Mallory box you have is much more adjustable than the MSD box you are contemplating. And that 6 box is a much weaker ignition.

I have been using Unilite distributors since 1982. I have never failed one myself. I have one in my car. I put them into everything I can. They are sensitive to dirty power. You can’t charge the battery with it hooked up. If you have a battery charger hooked up and hit the key it will kill the module. If you jump start the car with a Unilite it will kill the module. Just like a Pertronix ignition.

They work and they are very accurate. One just needs to understand how they function and follow some simple rules and they will live forever. You are another example of not having issues with that system. Some guys can break a bowling ball in a sand box with no tools. They will break anything. I ignore fools like that.

 

[gumper]

That’s interesting. If it’s only doing it when it hooks it could be the rear main jets are getting uncovered or something as weird as a wire that is only loose enough to give you an issue when it gets some bite.

Any time I run any magneto or any brand of 7 box I run a ground wire from each head to the body. The magneto and the bigger boxes can’t get enough ground. I hate electricity and how it behaves and certainly I’m not smart enough to understand or explain why the extra grounds help, but they do.

The first time I ran into it was on a blown alcohol car. It had a MSD 44 amp mag (they aren’t really 44 amps but MSD can fudge numbers and nobody calls them on it). The data logger was pissed off half the time. One run you would download the data and it was fine. Then the next run it would download junk. I had sent my Mag to Don Zig for an update and we were discussing stuff and that came up. He was the first to tell me to ground both heads. After that, we never had that issue again. So I started grounding both heads on everything with what I consider a big ignition.

If I’m reading your first post correctly you said you have the Mallory HyFire VIIs box. That would be a part number 667 box and that should be a digital box. Since it appears to be the Sportsman model, you have up and down arrows on the box with a screen and you can change the settings for the ignition right there on the box. You can also upgrade that box to VIIc by finding the hand held controller and a 10 pin cable. Then you can change the slope of the ignition curve and a bunch of other stuff and do it with the hand held.

If that’s what you have, you’d be going straight backwards with any 6 box. Firing alcohol isn’t like firing gas. I’m of the opinion that you can’t have “too much” ignition. Going to a 6 box is a backward move. And the Mallory box you have is much more adjustable than the MSD box you are contemplating. And that 6 box is a much weaker ignition.

I have been using Unilite distributors since 1982. I have never failed one myself. I have one in my car. I put them into everything I can. They are sensitive to dirty power. You can’t charge the battery with it hooked up. If you have a battery charger hooked up and hit the key it will kill the module. If you jump start the car with a Unilite it will kill the module. Just like a Pertronix ignition.

They work and they are very accurate. One just needs to understand how they function and follow some simple rules and they will live forever. You are another example of not having issues with that system. Some guys can break a bowling ball in a sand box with no tools. They will break anything. I ignore fools like that.

No on the jets issue, it’s a toilet injection system.
It is the 667 sportsman box. The main thing that leads me to believe it’s in the ignition is that it’s triggering the shift box at the wrong time. Since the shift box is reading rpm from the ignition box (which is getting it from the distributor) I would think there’s some sort of fault in that system.
Interesting to know about all the things I shouldn’t do with the Unilite plugged in. I’ve started the car many times with a charger hooked up. That Mallory power filter they recommend with the distributor probably saved me. Hopefully that’s not bad, they don’t make them anymore.

 

[gumper]

Think I found the problem. The top half of the distributor shaft was loose enough it would pop up 3/8” of an inch when you pull the rotor up by hand. It was enough the sensor would trigger under the shutter wheel with the shaft pulled up. I used a meter on the negative coil post to test. I’m guessing this would trip the box while under a hard launch which would then trigger the shift timer since it would think it had infinite RPMs. A soft launch on the return road wouldn’t effect it since the rear tires spin. Normally my 60’ times are in the 1.45 range, so that must’ve been enough g-force to pop the shaft up. That’s my theory anyway. I put the shaft back in, gave it a couple taps down and dimpled the shaft a little from the inside to swell it out to keep the shaft from moving.

Can I wire an MSD distributor to the Mallory box? The instructions insinuate that’s possible.

 

[yellow rose]

No on the jets issue, it’s a toilet injection system.
It is the 667 sportsman box. The main thing that leads me to believe it’s in the ignition is that it’s triggering the shift box at the wrong time. Since the shift box is reading rpm from the ignition box (which is getting it from the distributor) I would think there’s some sort of fault in that system.
Interesting to know about all the things I shouldn’t do with the Unilite plugged in. I’ve started the car many times with a charger hooked up. That Mallory power filter they recommend with the distributor probably saved me. Hopefully that’s not bad, they don’t make them anymore.

Yep. That filter is a life saver. I don’t know how many times it will stop a failure before it fails though. Kinda like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop.

I believe MSD is making some sort of filter for the Unilite today. I’m a bit leery of what MSD does.

 

[yellow rose]

Think I found the problem. The top half of the distributor shaft was loose enough it would pop up 3/8” of an inch when you pull the rotor up by hand. It was enough the sensor would trigger under the shutter wheel with the shaft pulled up. I used a meter on the negative coil post to test. I’m guessing this would trip the box while under a hard launch which would then trigger the shift timer since it would think it had infinite RPMs. A soft launch on the return road wouldn’t effect it since the rear tires spin. Normally my 60’ times are in the 1.45 range, so that must’ve been enough g-force to pop the shaft up. That’s my theory anyway. I put the shaft back in, gave it a couple taps down and dimpled the shaft a little from the inside to swell it out to keep the shaft from moving.

Can I wire an MSD distributor to the Mallory box? The instructions insinuate that’s possible.

Yep. It’s easy. I’d have to get out my copy of the directions but it’s just two wires.

I’m trying to think what’s in that distributor that broke or is missing that would let the shaft come up like that.

Hopefully that’s it.

 

[gumper]

Yep. It’s easy. I’d have to get out my copy of the directions but it’s just two wires.

I’m trying to think what’s in that distributor that broke or is missing that would let the shaft come up like that.

Hopefully that’s it.

I couldn’t see anything that retains the shaft. Just seemed like a press fit, and the springs and weights keep it held down.

What’s a worthwhile upgrade over the Mallory box? Something in the MSD 7 series? Grid system? Right now all I need is spark and a two-step. In the future I’d like something that I can also use with electronic fuel injection.

 

[yellow rose]

I couldn’t see anything that retains the shaft. Just seemed like a press fit, and the springs and weights keep it held down.

What’s a worthwhile upgrade over the Mallory box? Something in the MSD 7 series? Grid system? Right now all I need is spark and a two-step. In the future I’d like something that I can also use with electronic fuel injection.

The MSD 7 isn’t an upgrade. If you want an upgrade I’d use the grid. If you want something that about the same or a bit less than the box you have the 7 is that.

You can see the difference on the distributor bench, especially when you hook up a scope.

PM me if you want to sell the box and distributor. I buy those.

 

[gumper]

The MSD 7 isn’t an upgrade. If you want an upgrade I’d use the grid. If you want something that about the same or a bit less than the box you have the 7 is that.

You can see the difference on the distributor bench, especially when you hook up a scope.

PM me if you want to sell the box and distributor. I buy those.

I can pretty much sell you every spare part I have. I have that stroker crankshaft that the machine shop didn’t want to use in my possession finally. That, two sets of rods, .030 pistons, mopar .557 lift solid purple shaft cam with lifters, Smith pushrods for that cam, and probably some other stuff. Do you know anyone who can repair a Hyfire sportsman box? I have another one sitting on my shelf that got wet, and stopped working.

 

[mbaird]

Look at the Daytona Sensors CD-1 box.
3 step rev limiters built in .

 

[TT5.9mag]

@yellow rose can you explain your hesitance to use MSD stuff? I have had wonderful experience with their (actual, not Chinese copies) products in many different forms of Motorsports. Not necessarily just drag racing and never on any alcohol stuff. Just curios.

 

[yellow rose]

I can pretty much sell you every spare part I have. I have that stroker crankshaft that the machine shop didn’t want to use in my possession finally. That, two sets of rods, .030 pistons, mopar .557 lift solid purple shaft cam with lifters, Smith pushrods for that cam, and probably some other stuff. Do you know anyone who can repair a Hyfire sportsman box? I have another one sitting on my shelf that got wet, and stopped working.

PM sent.

 

[yellow rose]

@yellow rose can you explain your hesitance to use MSD stuff? I have had wonderful experience with their (actual, not Chinese copies) products in many different forms of Motorsports. Not necessarily just drag racing and never on any alcohol stuff. Just curios.

Because every time I’ve dyno tested a Mallory box that was equivalent to an MSD box the Mallory beat it. By numbers high enough to not question it.

The best test I had was a lowly 685 box (a digital HyFire VI box) with a 408 Chrysler on a third party dyno. We ended up 545 HP at 5200 with that box. They dyno owner came in and saw the box and laughed and said his dyno box was 20 better than that Mallory. For 20 HP I’d sell my wife into prostitution and my kid into slavery. So the engine owner was ok with a few more pulls so we hooked it up.

It was 15 HP DOWN at peak and averaged 12 HP less. O the dyno owner thought we were screwing with him, so we swapped the boxes out again and went right back to the original power numbers.

What was really sad was that box had been sent to Tech West or some other place that hops up those boxes. And the Mallory kicked it’s ***. Had that been an off the shelf box it really would have been an *** kicking.

I’ve tested it in the car and it’s much more difficult to trust the results but I never had a car go slower with a Mallory box, and they didn’t have those shitty little inaccurate RPM limiting chips.

 

[pishta]

I like Mallory, I got the "mighty 690" analog box and its as big as an industrial lunchbox. Anytime you have discrete analog components, your more stable in an electrically noisy environment like an engine bay with a big old spark generator sitting 18 inches away. I had 2 MSD 6's fail in a street car. Just don't see the hype of MSD stuff but plenty of ads. I'd actually trust a Crane Hi-6 more than an MSD 6, digital or not. Look inside an old MSD-6, junk in junk out.

 

[yellow rose]

I like Mallory, I got the "mighty 690" analog box and its as big as an industrial lunchbox. Anytime you have discrete analog components, your more stable in an electrically noisy environment like an engine bay with a big old spark generator sitting 18 inches away. I had 2 MSD 6's fail in a street car. Just don't see the hype of MSD stuff but plenty of ads. I'd actually trust a Crane Hi-6 more than an MSD 6, digital or not. Look inside an old MSD-6, junk in junk out.

LOL...I have one of those in the shop too. And it works. Plus I have a two step for that box too. And a 31 year old HyFire IV box that still works too.

 

[yellow rose]

GUMPER YOUR INBOX IS FULL. Trying to send you a PM.

YR

 

[TT5.9mag]

Because every time I’ve dyno tested a Mallory box that was equivalent to an MSD box the Mallory beat it. By numbers high enough to not question it.

The best test I had was a lowly 685 box (a digital HyFire VI box) with a 408 Chrysler on a third party dyno. We ended up 545 HP at 5200 with that box. They dyno owner came in and saw the box and laughed and said his dyno box was 20 better than that Mallory. For 20 HP I’d sell my wife into prostitution and my kid into slavery. So the engine owner was ok with a few more pulls so we hooked it up.

It was 15 HP DOWN at peak and averaged 12 HP less. O the dyno owner thought we were screwing with him, so we swapped the boxes out again and went right back to the original power numbers.

What was really sad was that box had been sent to Tech West or some other place that hops up those boxes. And the Mallory kicked it’s ***. Had that been an off the shelf box it really would have been an *** kicking.

I’ve tested it in the car and it’s much more difficult to trust the results but I never had a car go slower with a Mallory box, and they didn’t have those shitty little inaccurate RPM limiting chips.

Great explanation thank you.

 

[toolmanmike]

I like Mallory, I got the "mighty 690" analog box and its as big as an industrial lunchbox. Anytime you have discrete analog components, your more stable in an electrically noisy environment like an engine bay with a big old spark generator sitting 18 inches away. I had 2 MSD 6's fail in a street car. Just don't see the hype of MSD stuff but plenty of ads. I'd actually trust a Crane Hi-6 more than an MSD 6, digital or not. Look inside an old MSD-6, junk in junk out.

I don't think I have ever been to our local drag strip where the announcement came over the loudspeaker that simeone needed a 6AL box. Most of the guys I know have at least 1 extra. What's that tell ya. LOL

 

[toolmanmike]

Because every time I’ve dyno tested a Mallory box that was equivalent to an MSD box the Mallory beat it. By numbers high enough to not question it.

The best test I had was a lowly 685 box (a digital HyFire VI box) with a 408 Chrysler on a third party dyno. We ended up 545 HP at 5200 with that box. They dyno owner came in and saw the box and laughed and said his dyno box was 20 better than that Mallory. For 20 HP I’d sell my wife into prostitution and my kid into slavery. So the engine owner was ok with a few more pulls so we hooked it up.

It was 15 HP DOWN at peak and averaged 12 HP less. O the dyno owner thought we were screwing with him, so we swapped the boxes out again and went right back to the original power numbers.

What was really sad was that box had been sent to Tech West or some other place that hops up those boxes. And the Mallory kicked it’s ***. Had that been an off the shelf box it really would have been an *** kicking.

I’ve tested it in the car and it’s much more difficult to trust the results but I never had a car go slower with a Mallory box, and they didn’t have those shitty little inaccurate RPM limiting chips.

I like Mallory, I got the "mighty 690" analog box and its as big as an industrial lunchbox. Anytime you have discrete analog components, your more stable in an electrically noisy environment like an engine bay with a big old spark generator sitting 18 inches away. I had 2 MSD 6's fail in a street car. Just don't see the hype of MSD stuff but plenty of ads. I'd actually trust a Crane Hi-6 more than an MSD 6, digital or not. Look inside an old MSD-6, junk in junk out.

Asking for a friend. (LOL) Would the 690 be a good box for a mild street car? What can you use to trigger it? Points or Pertronix? Does it take a special coil?

 

[pishta]

well there seems to be at least 2 Mallory 690 part numbers...There is this

And then there is THIS! The High and Mighty 690! Maybe a 690 with a rev limiter and RPM switch base? That's mounted on whats left of the the old battery tray, fits great! Most I see have the matching Mallory "cast fin" style coil.

 

[pishta]

I don't think I have ever been to our local drag strip where the announcement came over the loudspeaker that simeone needed a 6AL box. Most of the guys I know have at least 1 extra. What's that tell ya. LOL

Buddy has a boat out at Colorado River. Some big power boats out there sometimes....ran across a stalled out 'hot rod boat' and the guy asked if he had a spare MSD 6 box. He didn't but the 3rd boat that passed them did! Most pack spares.....for some reason..