Is Quench Required?

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I appreciate the input fellas. Based on everyone's feedback (I hope it's right), I'm leaning toward zero-decking and using a 0.039" gasket. This puts my static compression at 10.45 and dymanic CR at 8.25 - both quite a bit more than I was originally aiming for. The calculated cranking compression pressure would be 170 psi, which sounds doable considering my iron headed 340 cranks 165 psi and runs fine on 91 octane, even at high temps.

If that proves to be too much, I could always retard the cam. Retarding it 4* would drop the DCR from 8.25 to 7.98 and the cranking pressure from 170 to 163 psi. That's an option too I suppose.
 

I appreciate the input fellas. Based on everyone's feedback (I hope it's right), I'm leaning toward zero-decking and using a 0.039" gasket. This puts my static compression at 10.45 and dymanic CR at 8.25 - both quite a bit more than I was originally aiming for. The calculated cranking compression pressure would be 170 psi, which sounds doable considering my iron headed 340 cranks 165 psi and runs fine of 91 octane, even at high temps.

If that proves to be too much, I could always retard the cam. Retarding it 4* would drop the DCR from 8.25 to 7.98 and the cranking pressure from 170 to 163 psi. That's an option too I suppose.


Everyone loses their **** if they can’t run orthodox timing.

I’m saying that if you can make power and only use 31 or even 28 total (with the correct curve) you are FAR better off than with 35 or more.

You are reducing negative work. The farther from TDC (before TDC) you fire the plug, the harder the piston has to work to get to TDC. Thats negative work.

On any NA build the goal should be (one of the goals anyway) is to do everything you can to increase burn speed. That’s one of the things tight quench does. It speeds up the burn rate.

Also to note is that it reduces the tendency to detonate because any fuel that gets trapped out there is more prone to detonate.

Increasing compression ratio speeds up the burn rate and that’s a good thing until you can’t control it. Just like everything else you can find the limit.

Reducing air inlet temperature reduces the possibility of detonation, but in most cases we talk about here that can be difficult.

Reducing engine coolant temperature is also a big detonation reducer, but you can’t just drop the coolant temperature without doing other work, especially with a carburetor.

Blocking off the exhaust crossover if your manifold has one will reduce the tendency to detonate because that reduces inlet air temperature.

Of course, power adder engines are the opposite. You want to slow the burn rate. But that’s a different topic.
 
Everyone loses their **** if they can’t run orthodox timing.

I’m saying that if you can make power and only use 31 or even 28 total (with the correct curve) you are FAR better off than with 35 or more.

You are reducing negative work. The farther from TDC (before TDC) you fire the plug, the harder the piston has to work to get to TDC. Thats negative work.

On any NA build the goal should be (one of the goals anyway) is to do everything you can to increase burn speed. That’s one of the things tight quench does. It speeds up the burn rate.

Also to note is that it reduces the tendency to detonate because any fuel that gets trapped out there is more prone to detonate.

Increasing compression ratio speeds up the burn rate and that’s a good thing until you can’t control it. Just like everything else you can find the limit.

Reducing air inlet temperature reduces the possibility of detonation, but in most cases we talk about here that can be difficult.

Reducing engine coolant temperature is also a big detonation reducer, but you can’t just drop the coolant temperature without doing other work, especially with a carburetor.

Blocking off the exhaust crossover if your manifold has one will reduce the tendency to detonate because that reduces inlet air temperature.

Of course, power adder engines are the opposite. You want to slow the burn rate. But that’s a different topic.
So, what I'm reading is - if/when I have trouble getting the ***** to run without pinging, I'm going to fly your *** down here to get it right? :lol:
 
Disclaimer I am far from and expert in real world experience but with aluminum heads 10.5 compression is nothing _if_ you have done your homework on the quench and cam. It sounds like that is what you are leaning to. Get the quench right, nice street-able cylinder pressures with the cam and aluminum heads. My bet is that is the right decision. My KTM 500 had a 15:1 compression ratio so it is not impossible.
 
Yeah, I heard that myth too. It didn't play out that way for me.
I've always thought that you were over the threshold for detonation with static compression before you made any changes. That would explain why lowering the compression helped. But honestly, who knows? sometimes with these things, all you can do is make a best guess.
 
Disclaimer I am far from and expert in real world experience but with aluminum heads 10.5 compression is nothing _if_ you have done your homework on the quench and cam. It sounds like that is what you are leaning to. Get the quench right, nice street-able cylinder pressures with the cam and aluminum heads. My bet is that is the right decision. My KTM 500 had a 15:1 compression ratio so it is not impossible.
Can you kick start it?
 
I appreciate the input fellas. Based on everyone's feedback (I hope it's right), I'm leaning toward zero-decking and using a 0.039" gasket. This puts my static compression at 10.45 and dymanic CR at 8.25 - both quite a bit more than I was originally aiming for. The calculated cranking compression pressure would be 170 psi, which sounds doable considering my iron headed 340 cranks 165 psi and runs fine on 91 octane, even at high temps.

If that proves to be too much, I could always retard the cam. Retarding it 4* would drop the DCR from 8.25 to 7.98 and the cranking pressure from 170 to 163 psi. That's an option too I suppose.
I heard this same argument 12 years ago when I was dealing with the knocking. It seemed counterintuitive to run toward fire to put it out.
I went the other way and it worked out.
 
I heard this same argument 12 years ago when I was dealing with the knocking. It seemed counterintuitive to run toward fire to put it out.
I went the other way and it worked out.


If your compression ratio is far enough off and your cam is wrong then you just need to kill compression.

IMO it’s the wrong way to build an engine but in your case it was the correct fix.

Mopowers isnt in the same position as you were.

As a rule, you don’t want to be in between on quench. Either get it under .050 or keep it at .100 but not in between.
 
If your compression ratio is far enough off and your cam is wrong then you just need to kill compression.

IMO it’s the wrong way to build an engine but in your case it was the correct fix.

Mopowers isnt in the same position as you were.

As a rule, you don’t want to be in between on quench. Either get it under .050 or keep it at .100 but not in between.
Mine just set up at .025" to .027" quench. It was either that, or run a .042" compressed thickness composition gasket with the piston .007" in the hole. This is a measured 10.6:1 with the unicorn closed chamber head. It's gettin sent. lol
 
What's the calculated dynamic CR and cranking pressure with that combo?

Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator
Static compression ratio of 10.6:1.
Effective stroke is 3.19 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.42:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 171.60
PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 0
PSI is 8.30 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 92
 
What's the calculated dynamic CR and cranking pressure with that combo?

Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator
Here's the same info on the engine in the car NOW. It has the crappiest open chamber slant 6 head ever and the piston is .180" in the hole and it doesn't spark knock not one bit.

Static compression ratio of 10.6:1.
Effective stroke is 3.04 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.07:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.21
PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 0
PSI is 7.95 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 83
 
What's the calculated dynamic CR and cranking pressure with that combo?

Wallace Racing: Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator

I don’t use “dynamic” compression ratio because it has to to be calculated with RPM and load.

You are better off using effective compression ratio because once the SCR and IVC are set it never changes.

I’m saying that dynamic compression changes, hence the word dynamic. That Wallace calculator (and all the others I’ve seen) never tells you at what RPM it occurs. If it uses VE in its calculation than it’s only at that VE where it’s correct.

Inlet air temperature isn’t included because that affects DCR as well and some other things I’m forgetting.

The math I use for picking cam timing uses ECR and not DCR.
 
Here's the same info on the engine in the car NOW. It has the crappiest open chamber slant 6 head ever and the piston is .180" in the hole and it doesn't spark knock not one bit.

Static compression ratio of 10.6:1.
Effective stroke is 3.04 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.07:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.21
PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 0
PSI is 7.95 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 83
Thank you. That provides a little bit of relief. What type of fuel do you use in the current combo?


I don’t use “dynamic” compression ratio because it has to to be calculated with RPM and load.

You are better off using effective compression ratio because once the SCR and IVC are set it never changes.

I’m saying that dynamic compression changes, hence the word dynamic. That Wallace calculator (and all the others I’ve seen) never tells you at what RPM it occurs. If it uses VE in its calculation than it’s only at that VE where it’s correct.

Inlet air temperature isn’t included because that affects DCR as well and some other things I’m forgetting.

The math I use for picking cam timing uses ECR and not DCR.
Thanks. I'm only using it for comparison purposes. Basically comparing how changes in deck height, gasket thickness, etc. impact compression and cranking pressure.
 
Amazingly, it will run on 87 without spark knock, but it runs MUCH better on either premium or 90 non ethanol, which is what I run in it now and it runs fine.
Thank you. Have you run a cranking compression test? I'm curious what kind of cranking pressure it has.

It also seems like your current slant has quite a bit more camshaft than the other one?
 
Yeah, I heard that myth too. It didn't play out that way for me.
Ok sure, but do you think that may have been more about reaching the limitations of fuel available rather than quench & compression?

We can only speak from our own experiences, mine seems to be somewhat opposite to what yours has been.
 
@mopowers , FWIW my 410 stroker cranks over at 200-203psi. It does have good flowing heads. The calc’s say it should be around 185psi. Effective CR is at 8.7-8.8:1. Quench is at 0.036’’.

It doesn’t ping at all on premium unleaded fuel. It did ping only occasionally before I sorted out a lifter adjustment issue. It was cranking at 215-220psi ( ! ) before sorting that out.

I’m probably close to the edge of where you want to be with pump fuel, but it can be done. Close attention to all small details & good tuning will get you there.

IMG_0113.jpeg
 
Thank you. Have you run a cranking compression test? I'm curious what kind of cranking pressure it has.

It also seems like your current slant has quite a bit more camshaft than the other one?
It's between 175 and 185 PSI. Yes, I knew I would need a LATE IVCE so I went with one that has 70 degrees IVCE. This current engine has the crappiest combustion chamber of all the slant 6 heads, so I knew I was gonna need a lot of help. Yes, the engine on the stand has a .492/236@.050" on a 108. I wanted more bottom end.....not that it's lacking now, because surprisingly, it's pretty snappy right off the line. I figured since the new engine is a quench engine that I'd try to take advantage of it, rather than kill it with a huge cam.
 
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