Is this True about converters??

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Treblig

Treblig

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KMJperformance writes this about their converters..."Welded not Furnace Brazed. Contrary to popular belief, furnace brazing is not the best way to adhere torque converter components to together. Just like a Teflon coated pan, after some time the furnace brazing will erode away and ruin the stators and all other rotating parts in your transmission. All of ACC torque converters are welded at the seams, not brazed, to eliminate the erosion after time. "

I always thought that furnace brazed was better. Looking to buy a torque converter (NOT FOR RACING) just heavy street use with nothing over 5800RPM.

Treblig
 
Tig welding a convertor is the best way to weld in the fins,as opposed to furnace welding,as this is a assembly line welding through a oven/furnace using a copper past.Check out the link,mrmopartech
http://heattreatment.linde.com/international/web/lg/ht/like35lght.nsf/repositorybyalias/apps_brazing/$file/Furnace%20brazing.pdf
 
The brazing metal cannot erode from use. The transmission oil would burn away well before that temperature was reached. But - The fins can be bent over. That can also happen with welding because it's not wear or heat but pressure resulting from the oil flow over them that does it. Welding is a lot more expensive for a business because it's labor and materials intensive and in most uses it's way overkill.
 
.............There was a link on here a few days ago about TCI converters...how it made? or how they work..i believe it was from the Summit website..............kim.......
 
The reason I ask is that this company KMJ uses welding (turbine and impeller fins) instead of furnace brazing and says that their TCs are good to 500 HP. I thought that was pretty good for $191.00 and free shipping!! That's for a stock stall 2004R non lock up converter. I'm putting a 2004R into my cuda.

Treblig
 
Saw you mention it's an ACC (otherwise known as a Boss Hog converter). I have one I got with a transmission that needs a new snout due to wear and I called 3 places asking about having that done and adjusting the stall speed slightly and every major company told me ACC converters are some of the worst converters they see. Buyer beware. If it's real cheap there's usually a reason.
 
Look up Edge Racing Converter's... Andre is a great guy and the street verters custom come in at about 300
 
Treblig said:
KMJperformance writes this about their converters..."Welded not Furnace Brazed. Contrary to popular belief, furnace brazing is not the best way to adhere torque converter components to together. Just like a Teflon coated pan, after some time the furnace brazing will erode away and ruin the stators and all other rotating parts in your transmission. All of ACC torque converters are welded at the seams, not brazed, to eliminate the erosion after time. "

I always thought that furnace brazed was better. Looking to buy a torque converter (NOT FOR RACING) just heavy street use with nothing over 5800RPM.

Treblig
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All of the quality converters I've seen cut open the pump is always furnace brazed, and on the hard core performance converters the turbine is also brazed. Why, for strength. What a quality converter rebuilder will do on their hard core high stalls is they will tig weld the top and bottom of the fins again for added strength both on the pump and the turbine, after these components have been furnace brazed. It is possible with enough torque to bend the vanes backwards if this 2nd procedure isn't done.
The cheaper "high stalls" don't have this done because of the costs involved. Just welding the top and the bottom of the vanes will increase the strength of the converter to a degree, but no where near as strong as a furnace brazed part. The other downside of only tig welding the vanes is a warpage problem The parts being welded are quite thin and unless the heat is applied evenly, you will warp the pump or the turbine.
I may stand corrected on this next statement, but as I recall there were only 2 outfits in North America that were furnace brazing for the converter industry, one in the Eastern part of the U.S. and one in California. There are other companies that could do this, but their main business usually involved the aircraft industry and had no interest in brazing converter parts. We used to send out 8x8x8 boxes of converter parts to be furnace brazed. The owner of the company, who always tried to do his best to keep work in house, looked at doing this work ourselves, but it was cost prohibitive.
As others have said, a quality converter is not inexpensive, and an inexpensive converter are inexpensive for a reason. I know, as I've plenty of converters apart.
Stock Chrysler converters typically and for most applications have the pump furnace brazed and have for years, as do most Industrial converters.
 
Treblig said:
The reason I ask is that this company KMJ uses welding (turbine and impeller fins) instead of furnace brazing and says that their TCs are good to 500 HP. I thought that was pretty good for $191.00 and free shipping!! That's for a stock stall 2004R non lock up converter. I'm putting a 2004R into my cuda.

Treblig
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I have my doubts about a stock 2004R converter being good for 500HP. GM couldn't do it, and I'll bet that if you go to Art Carr, ATI, PTC, Continental, Marv Ripes, and the like, you won't get a STOCK converter good for 500HP. Youv'e done a great job on the conversion, don't cheap out on the converter you need. Match the converter to your engine specs and be happy mon.:glasses7:
 
Mrmopartech said:
Tig welding a convertor is the best way to weld in the fins,as opposed to furnace welding,as this is a assembly line welding through a oven/furnace using a copper past.Check out the link,mrmopartech
http://heattreatment.linde.com/international/web/lg/ht/like35lght.nsf/repositorybyalias/apps_brazing/$file/Furnace%20brazing.pdf
Click to expand...

Tig welding only is done to the top and bottom of the vanes in the pump and turbine, and this can and will cause warpage of these parts if not done carefully.
Furnace brazing gets the material down the full length of the vanes to the shell, thus increasing the strength of the component. If you've ever seen the inside of a stock converter, you'll see that the vanes are not made of the thickest of materials and are only held in place by bending a tang typically at the top and the bottom of each vane, so if you're only welding the top in the case of really cheap converters or the top and bottom of the vanes how much stronger have you made the piece.
 
Well that raised some interest!!!! I was in the aircraft industry and I am familiar with both methods of bonding (tig and brazing). It didn't make sense that they claimed their converters could withstand 500 HP by only tig welding a portion of the each fin. Also to tig weld the whole fin base and do it properly would be extremely time consuming and expensive so that didn't make sense either. I'm not going to "cheap out"!! I just wanted everyone's opinion to find out if my concerns were rational. I'm doing a lot of surfing to get the converter that fits my build (for the right price) so I'll stay away from this one. Thanks to all, I guess Fishy68 had a real experience with this company and that helps with making a good decision.

Treblig:prayer:
 
Transman - Ever have one of those TCI Super Streetfighter converters apart? TCI doesn't have a great rep but I couldn't kill the one I had in a SB even thru a couple smoked trans. Got another on a deal for my BB but haven't convinced myself that I will run it.
 
Just becasue the convertor doesn't fail or break doesn't mean it is efficient or works well.
 
80fbody said:
Transman - Ever have one of those TCI Super Streetfighter converters apart? TCI doesn't have a great rep but I couldn't kill the one I had in a SB even thru a couple smoked trans. Got another on a deal for my BB but haven't convinced myself that I will run it.
Click to expand...

I can't say that I've personally seen that model of TCI converter apart, but I have seen some of their product in cut open. Their low end priced units: you get what you pay for, at the other end of the price scale: well made units.
The company I worked for repaired or reworked converters of all different brands for customers. The common thread with the good race stuff: furnace brazed, tig welding top and bottom on the vanes, torrington bearings, anti-ballooning plates , hd. attaching mounts, steel splines in the stator (cheap converters had the stock powdered splines, and they weren't always new splines), hd sprag arangement or a diode style sprag, spragless for some applications. Some street converters(12" and 11" units) from various rebuilders, while not having all the race stuff showed care and attention in the build, others not so. We had one customer who brought us in his stall converter ( a street converter) to check the balance of it, as it shook like a dog passing a razor blade(his words). 25 grams out of balance will do that.
 
roccodart440 said:
Just becasue the convertor doesn't fail or break doesn't mean it is efficient or works well.
Click to expand...

If when you order a converter you BS the supplier about the amount of HP or torque you've got, no converter will be efficient or work well. Don't tell the supplier that you've got 500HP and 450 lbs. of torque unless you've had the engine on a dyno. Misinformation given will result in the wrong converter for an application and as you say, will not be efficient or work properly.
 
When dynamic did my convertor I sent them my dyno sheet. They sent me a convertor.

What i'm saying is that buying one of those name brand, off the shelf, advertised stall speed convertors probably isn't going to function well. IT may not fail, but it may surely dissapoint.

My dynamic was a 3900-4100 stall speed 9" unit. You'd never know it was aything but stock until you mashed it to the floor.

Current convertor is an art car 3500 stall convertor. It stalls at 3400 and again, acts bone stock.
 
I don't know the answer to your question, but I know this. KMJ is a sell with a good rep. However, they sell a LOT of known chinkesium. They don't hide it, though. Also, if you are lookin at the ACC (Boss Hog) converters, be warned, they are pretty close to the bottom in the industry, IMO. I would choose a different make.
 
transman said:
If when you order a converter you BS the supplier about the amount of HP or torque you've got, no converter will be efficient or work well. Don't tell the supplier that you've got 500HP and 450 lbs. of torque unless you've had the engine on a dyno. Misinformation given will result in the wrong converter for an application and as you say, will not be efficient or work properly.
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True dat.
So far I've returned 3 convertors for customers that either embelished power output ( power wanted as opposed to reality?) or said it was for a drag car as opposed to a street or road racing car.
 
Anybody ever looked at Dacco. They are the manufacture in Cookeville TN. They have performance/racing TQ. I have a stock unit from them and looked at the samples in the store that were cut open to show the build process. Good price and not a lick of trouble from it.
 
little un related but i do have a lil insight on the dacco converters i have rum a few over the years in some ford c4s behind mild 351 windsors in light fox body mustangs n for the money they are hard to beat for a budget n wanting a converter on a build i trust the dacco far more then b&m n tci far as boss hog converters a buddy ran one behind a 347 with 14#s a boost trans didnt last long but cant say thats the converters fault.
 
Thanks, good info. I'll check out the Daccos and check some prices. I need to order soon but still have time to shop around.

Treblig
 
Treblig said:
Thanks, good info. I'll check out the Daccos and check some prices. I need to order soon but still have time to shop around.

Treblig
Click to expand...

If you go to the Dacco website and look under performance converters, they've got one cut apart. You can see that the pump and turbine have been both furnace brazed, and both ends of the vanes tig welded. From the photos you can also see how the vanes are staked in, and how thin they really are. Now, picture that converter without furnace brazing and tig welding and ask yourself "could it really withstand 500HP in a factory configuration. Another thing you must understand is other than the mounting, some internal parts, and the hub, your Chrysler converter may/will have parts from another vehicle maker.
 
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