Large ball joints, small ball joints, & Aussie spindles & brakes

[ProjectBazza]

There have been some posts of late regarding large ball joints & small ball joints, and I guess I need some help.

The front rotors on Barry's/Bazza's '71 VG Valiant are beyond "minimum", and when we took the car back a couple weeks ago I told him they need to be replaced NOW, as I felt the car could be unsafe to drive. Problem is, new rotors (from Oz) are around $250 each, and that's a little more than he (or I can) can afford right now.

But I've been thinking about this....

I'm going back up there this weekend, and while there I was thinking of seeing how he felt about swapping-out the Aussie (Girling) front brakes (rotors, calipers, hoses, and even the spindles, if necessary) for US based parts. I haven't done my homework yet, and I don't have the Manual anymore (it went back home with the car), but now I'm wondering if I should hold-off on this idea, as I don't know what ball joints the car has.

Oh, and with regards to that: All of the new parts for the front end came from Oz. Some were in boxes, and some just in bags. Thankfully the inner and outer tie rods were in boxes, with good part numbers that crossed-over to US Dart parts (I had to source new adjusting sleeves for them), and from what I could see, the ball joints look exactly like Dart units. But I didn't measure anything...

Since I'm going back up there this weekend, what do I need to know/what should I measure or look at on these ball joints so I can start doing some research on swapping-out his brakes?

Thanks.

Jim

 

[4mulas]

Without being 100% sure I would imagine that you could use 1973 and up control arms, spindles, calipers and rotors etc from Chrysler A body line up. This is the most common conversion folks do over here on there pre 72 A bodies and also in B and E body cars getting disc brake conversions. Parts are plentiful and there are several threads on this forum covering the conversion.

I bet the lower control arms are the same on your vg as they are on A bodies over here so heres a list of what I think you’d need:

- 1973 - 1976 Mopar upper control arms for A body - large ball joint ones.
- 1973 -1976 lower ball joints for disc brakes
- 1973 - 1976 Disc brake spindles with caliper brackets
- 1973 - 1976 single piston floating style brake calipers : OR 1985 ish dodge diplomat calipers depending on which location you desire to mount the calipers (to the front or rear of the spindle) this is important on cars over here for things like sway bar clearance etc…
- 1973 - 1976 dodge dart brake hoses : OR 15" disc brake hose for 1969 Camaro - again depending if you front or rear mount the calipers
- 1973 and up to about 1987 brake rotors with bearings and seals etc…..
- disc brake pads for the 73 and up floating style calipers

can you post a few detailed pictures of the current set up? It would help.

 

[ProjectBazza]

Without being 100% sure I would imagine that you could 1973 and up control arms, spindles, calipers and rotors etc from Chrysler A body line up. This is the most common conversion folks do over here on there pre 72 A bodies and also in B and E body cars getting disc brake conversions. Parts are plentiful and there are several threads on this forum covering the conversion.

I bet the lower control arms are the same on your vg as they are on A bodies over here so heres a list of what I think you’d need:

- 1973 - 1976 Mopar upper control arms for A body - large ball joint ones.
- 1973 -1976 lower ball joints for disc brakes
- 1973 - 1976 Disc brake spindles with caliper brackets
- 1973 - 1976 single piston floating style brake calipers : OR 1985 ish dodge diplomat calipers depending on which location you desire to mount the calipers (to the front or rear of the spindle) this is important on cars over here for things like sway bar clearance etc…
- 1973 - 1976 dodge dart brake hoses : OR 15" disc brake hose for 1969 Camaro - again depending if you front or rear mount the calipers
- 1973 and up to about 1987 brake rotors with bearings and seals etc…..
- disc brake pads for the 73 and up floating style calipers

can you post a few detailed pictures of the current set up? It would help.

Thank you for that! Good info, and very much appreciated!

I don't have the car, it's not mine. I just did all the work for a very close and good friend of ours that has run into serious medical issues, and I wanted to help him out. (I don't know how to get back to my Intro here, but it explains everything.)

Also, I didn't take any pics of the steering or suspension work when I had the car here, as there wasn't much to show. One of the FABO members pressed the LCAs for me/Bazza, and he said they were the same as what we have here in the States.

The car alreadys has discs up front, but based on what you said above, it looks like I would need to replace the upper and lower CA's, regardless? I'll be putting the car up on stands for the winter this weekend, and I could easliy pop-off one of the tires to check...something.

And takes pics, of course.

Jim

 

[Kendog 170]

I thing to add. You will have 4.5 bolt pattern not 4" I think you may have now. Then you may want to convert rear axles and drums to 4.5 .

 

[ProjectBazza]

I thing to add. You will have 4.5 bolt pattern not 4" I think you may have now. Then you may want to convert rear axles and drums to 4.5 .

Damn! I wasn’t aware of that, nor had I considered it.

I’ll measure the bolt circle, and if it needs to change this will be a non-starter, as I know Bazza absolutely LOVES the wheels on this car and he won’t go for it.

Thanks!

 

[cudamark]

First you have to find out what parts you have now.....U.S. or Aussie if they're different. As for driving with thin rotors, it would depend on how undersize they are. When it comes to the Kelsey Hayes U.S. brakes, the specs were over-conservative. I personally have no problem cutting them .030 under the limit. The most that can happen is they get too hot and warp, causing a pedal pulsation. Until that happens, save up your money for the new rotors. I doubt you will find a good quality brake swap costing under $500 unless you buy used.

 

[ProjectBazza]

First you have to find out what parts you have now.....U.S. or Aussie if they're different. As for driving with thin rotors, it would depend on how undersize they are. When it comes to the Kelsey Hayes U.S. brakes, the specs were over-conservative. I personally have no problem cutting them .030 under the limit. The most that can happen is they get too hot and warp, causing a pedal pulsation. Until that happens, save up your money for the new rotors. I doubt you will find a good quality brake swap costing under $500 unless you buy used.

From what Bazza was telling me, these are still the original rotors, Girling brand, which met the Aussie "Native Content" rules Back in the Day. Car has 81K miles on it, and you can't make out the "Min Thickness" script inside the rotor as they're pretty crusty, so this all seems to make sense, in my opinion.

Don't recall the Min Spec of these rotors (it was in the Manual), but you're .030" under is "right there", as I measured about .020-.025" under with my caliper, if memory serves.

And they are warped. Don't feel too bad around 30 MPH or so (city speeds), but I wouldn't want to hit them hard at 65 or so.

Dairy Queen runs? Sure!

Cross country/Power Tour? Hell no!

 

[cudamark]

I thought Girling was a British company. Regardless, I'd keep it stock if it were me and the parts were available. Who knows what issues you may encounter doing a swap of that sort unless you get some first hand knowledge from our Aussie friends that have done it. Will U.S. brakes fit on your suspension and work properly? Same control arms? Ball joints? Wheel track and tire clearance? Frankly I don't know.

 

[ProjectBazza]

British...American....Australian....Venezuelan (it rhymes).....

That car is a mish-mash of all sorts of stuff. Some of it works well together, and other parts of it....well, not so much.

But working on it ain't boring, I'll give it that!

Thanks.

 

[NudeHemidude]

The upper ball joints will be “small” and the bolt pattern is 4”.
I believe everything but the pitman (steering box) and idler arm will be the same as US Darts.
You’ve got me on the brakes. I would try to fit standard A-body stuff and see if it fits the spindles you have. If it doesn’t fit, I reckon US A-body spindles should fit because the ball joints are the same.

 

[ProjectBazza]

The upper ball joints will be “small” and the bolt pattern is 4”.

Thank you! And because Bazza loves the wheels so much, I was afraid of that (4" bolt spacing).

I believe everything but the pitman (steering box) and idler arm will be the same as US Darts.

I'm not an expert by any means, but based on the time I spent working on this car, and looking at US-Dart steering parts, I would agree.

You’ve got me on the brakes. I would try to fit standard A-body stuff and see if it fits the spindles you have. If it doesn’t fit, I reckon US A-body spindles should fit because the ball joints are the same.

I've been considering digging into bearing numbers (inners and outers), and seals, for both US and Aussie cars, and if they are the same- who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky!

Then again, karma has been somewhat of a ***** to me lately, so I have my doubts.

Thank you for the response!

 

[Iceworkz]

Australian assembled Valiants use small upper ball joints (same as US), unique lower ball joints, unique pitman and idler due to having the steering box mounted on the chassis rail and tie rod ends that are the same as US A bodies. I've never been able to work out if the wheel bearings are the same as a US Mopar, I'm fairly sure they are smaller than the 73 on disc brake models but not sure about 72 and earlier disc brake cars. The Aussie A-bodies of this model also used a thicker disc rotor than their US counterparts.

 

[ProjectBazza]

Australian assembled Valiants use small upper ball joints (same as US), unique low ball joints, unique pitman and idler due to having the steering box mounted on the chassis rail and tie rod ends that are the same as US A bodies. I've never been able to work out if the wheel are the same as a US Mopar, I'm fairly sure they are smaller than the 73 on disc brake models but not sure about 72 and earlier disc brake cars. The Aussie A-bodies of this model also used a thicker disc rotor than their US counterparts.

Thank you so much!

I’m going to measure the bolt circle, and the rotor diameter, tomorrow. If the bolt circle is indeed 4" I'm pretty sure I won't be looking into this any further (swapping US parts onto the car), as I've already spent way too much time, and money, on this car.

And it's not even mine!

If the brake parts have to come from Oz or NZ, so be it.

 

[ProjectBazza]

We drove back up to northern WI this weekend, I drained and dropped the gas tank (leak in the sending unit gasket), and confirmed a 4" bolt circle on the wheels/brakes.

(Damn!)

Bazza and I talked about this (the brakes), and we discussed his options, and he told me in the interest of keeping his car all original he wants to use OEM/Aussie parts only on the brakes. Not sure when this is going to happen (for several reasons), so once I fix and reinstall the fuel tank, his car could be sitting for "a while".

Which also means I may be done working on it.

 

[Dave999]

I'm assuming it is standard

Upper balljoints small
lower balljoints same size as US but angle of arms different. you can use US lowers if you cut down the track rod sleeves by 1/2 an inch to achieve proper toe in/out.
This was the, keep your USA export Right hand drive 67/68 barracuda on the road "hack" for uk owners in the 80s.

Easier to just get Aussie Joints part numbers BJ-36 and BJ-35 presume BJ stands for ball joint in this case

brakes will be kelsey hayse pin sliders using a vf vg size front rotor which is smaller than the later ones but not the same as the VC VE solid one with the fixed caliper

if he has girling-lockheed "Girlock" calipers then they will be claw slider 1 pot rather than pin slider 1 pot calipers and are off a VJ valiant from 73-75 no problem with this, it is or was an upgrade in the past to cater for the fact that you could not get pins and bushes to recondition the earlier calipers, you can now.

the stub axles and hubs. you have stub axles that take the small inner hub bearing
the hubs will be small PCD

idler and pitman are unique to Australia
all other front end is same as US just buy 67 dart stuff

If money was no object
id buy aussie rotors and some new pins and bushes for what you have caliper wise,
you can use US wheel studs to put hub rotor back together

OR upgrade

id buy short US 73? onward caliper bracket
id buy US 1 pot slider calipers the FMJ body ones i think...cheap 1 pot recon calipers rockauto
and id buy aussie rotors

OR to potentially try to keep it cheap

id buy US rotors or rotor and hub in 4inch pcd if i could find them, and if the inner bearing prooved to be too big i'd use the inner hub bearing size conversion sleeves that Dr-Diff makes.

the caliper bracket mounting on the sub axles uses the same 3.5 inch centers in both countries

what i can't tell you is if the later US calipers and brackets fit his Aussie 14 inch wheels
but more likely with steel than with alloy which tends to be thicker in the problem area

The late 70s US short bracket, for claw slider 1 pot calipers and the Aussie VJ 73-75 set up are the same design but they differ by 1/8 inch at the bracket slider mounting, so you can't run an Australian caliper on a US bracket, it would fall through.... Nice...

Options
Big balljoint US arms
Big balljoint US stubs
US disc rotors re drilled for 4 inch PCD hub and hope it fits within the wheel and the caliper can accommodate offset.

Original Arms small balljoint
Original stub small balljoint
Original caliper and bracket
US hubs and rotors ideally 4 inch PCD
or Aussie Hub and US 4 inch pcd rotor OR re drilled 4.5 pcd US rotor (small)
any inner hub bearing mismatch and the bearing sleeves from dr diff will be needed or a trip to a bearing supply shop


you have more chance of a claw slider caliper accommodating any peculiar rotor offset than a pin slider caliper

If you have no thread exposed to put the spindle nut on or it runs out of thread when done up you have a bearing size or bearing taper mismatch in your hub...

Summary
Australia is small balljoint
Australia is small inner hub bearings
Australia is predominantly 13 ('61/62 valiant) or 14 inch (62-at least 1976) wheels so rotors and caliper Brackets are smaller of the US sizes

Australia has drum and disc in small and large pcd even though they stuck with small balljoint and small inner hub bearings through out. 70/71 is cutover for PCD size but it doesn't match with a balljoint or stub axle change like in the US
i.e you can get a 70/71 VG with small PCD or large PCD but you don't get a late 71 VH with a small PCD.

Australia had left hand thread wheel studs on one side of some 60s cars they have an L on the end
Australia uses the same mounting point and specification for its caliper/caliper bracket 3.5"
Australia uses the same bolt pattern for disc rotor backing plates (or throw them away and pretend its a race car)
Australia uses the same upper arms and the same small BJ as the US (i have all US stuff in mine apart from the Unique to Oz/Right hand drive stuff)
Australia uses unique ish tabs for sway bars on lower arms but the lower Arms are the same as US and the link arms are the same rod/bush/washers
The bottom arm pins and bushes same as US
Australia uses slant 6 and "slant 6 with aircon" and 318/340 torsion bars. they never had the big block in an A body Bar. any of the bar sizes below that you can find. all boots and retainers the same.
all balljoint seals were plastic rimmed top-hat style seals like US, not boots with steel spring clip in rim
upper and lower bumps stops same as US
Drum brakes are 9 inch until at least 76 both PCDs as mentioned

1 piece and 4 piece strut rod bushes were used and the strut rods went through the threaded with a split pin and castle nut, to threaded without split pin and nylock nut change just check for early or later thread/collar dimension and buy the moog bits

if you do get the brakes working well a brake bias unit is worth it
even with the tiny 9 inch drums on the back, they are early style duo servo and lock-up easily
master cylinder is unique VG VH, only rebuild kits available. can be honed or bored and lined

if it wasn't so expensive Aussie disc brake set up would be perfect upgrade for all early A bodies in the US, you could choose 4 inch PCD or 4.5 inch and a range of 4 different calipers that work with 14 inch wheels.

plan a holiday with a big suit case


Dave