Lifters Pissing me off.............

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dodgetkboy78

dodgetkboy78

EDELBROCK HEADS SUCK!
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OK, so, normally, I don't ask a lot of questions, but this ones got me stumped, I just cant figure this one out.

Engine is a 4" stroke 318.
302 heads
Crane Iron Rocker arms.
Lunati Voodoo cam, 268/276
BRAND NEW LIFTERS FROM LUNATI. (Thought I had a bum set of lifters)
Valve guides cut, viton seals, perfect rocker angle.
Springs are #26986 comp beehive springs, 1.750 (exactly) installed height.
Lifters were bushed, .050 holes drilled for lifter oiling. (it has been a solid roller motor before)

Heres what it does. Set lash at .010, clatters like an SOB, like the pushrods are about to jump out.
Set at Zero, clatters kinda, it's where it is right now, and floats valves around 5000.
Set 1/4 turn or so in.......... Collapses lifters when sitting, clackittys like hell when you start it, and floats valves about 4500.

I have checked, double checked, and checked again............ Rocker angles, new lifters, I just don't freaking get it, every other motor I have built with the adj rockers, I have set at Zero,and it works great.

Anything anyone can think of that I am missing? I'm two more valve floats away from going solid.

It just doesn't make sense to me how the valves can float set at zero lash. (The motor has about 25,000 miles on it since built)
 
I should clarify. after adjustment you should be able to push the plunger down .040-.060
 
dodgetkboy78: "BRAND NEW LIFTERS FROM LUNATI. (Thought I had a bum set of lifters)"


I had a number of sets of Lunati lifters that were Junk! Worked for awhile then bang, pumped up hard and push rods came through the stamped steel rockers. Same problem using adjustable rockers set at 0 lash. Going solid cam and solid lifters isn't such a bad idea. JMO
 
most adjustable rockers are 24 threads per inch so after you get it to zero lash you want to tighten it about one full turn. that equals about .040, if it still claters a bit give it another quarter turn. thats how i set mine. i have seen instructions say anywhere from .020 to .060.
 
Just a thought but was there a monification to the lifter oil galley that stoped or lessend the oil flow when a solid roller cam was used and after that you could not go back to hdy lifters
 
No, I didn't tube the galleys......... Just cleaned up the transformations in the galleys, and enlarged pick up holes, just the normal HP stuff.

As far as the .040...... The sucker will float the valves at like 4000 then, tried that. AND clatter like a SOB after being shut off.
The first lifters I took out, were ISKY, I think made by Johnson.
Is it possible my springs are just too much, or have I gotten my second set of crappy lifters?
Thinking of having a cam similar to the voodoo ground by ISKY and going solid...........
 
You don't set lash on hydraulic cams you set pre load. I would adjust them with .030" pre load, run the oil pump with a priming rod, turn the engine over by hand or with starter, and make sure the lifters are pumping up.
 
1. Everyone here is correct in regards to hydraulic lifter preload. It should be set to .030 - .040 Zero lash should only be set when using anti-pump up lifters with the stout circlip that holds the plunger in, not the wire retainer type lifters. Reason being that the circlip will hold the plunger in if the valves do float. Generally this is done on race only engines as the valve train will be noisy at lower rpms when set up this way.

2. The .050 hole for lifter lubrication concerns me. I've never tried to run a hyraulic lifter in an engine set up for solid lifters, so I can't say for sure this your problem, but it bothers me nevertheless.

3. Even the smaller Lunati cams like you're running have a very fast rate of lift and require a very stout spring. Here's a comparison of what Lunati reccomends and what you're running. Quote from Lunati: "Makes un-equaled power to 6200 RPM with proper valve springs"

Lunati Springs:

Lunati Intro Series™ valve spring set

Spring Type: Dual w/damper
Outside Diameter: 1.440 in.
Inside Diameter: 0.750 in.
Seat Load: 120 lbs @ 1.650 in.
Open Load: 265 lbs @ 1.250 in.
Coil Bind: 0.950 in.
Spring Rate: 363 lbs/in.

Part Number: 73949

Jobber Price: $139.43

Comp Springs:

Part# 26986
O.D. I.D. Top 1.065 .650 Bottom 1.412 1.000
Seat Load 123 @ 1.750
Open Load 284 @ 1.175
Coil Bind 1.040
Rate 280

Even though open and closed rates seem similair, note that the spring rate is over 80 lbs. more per inch and that the Lunati springs are duals with a damper. I can only surmise that Lunati knows what they're talking about in regards to cam spring selection for their grinds and suggest a specific spring due to some unique harmonic characteristic that their cams produce though the valve train.

I too have a valve float problem with a Lunati cam and I'm using Crane springs. I'll be changing the springs out in the near future. Other than that, I'm happy as a pig in poop in with their cam. It idles great, pulls more vacuum than I expected and starts pulling hard at about 2200 rpm. I'm running the 60401 in a 360 bored out .040 with a measured 10.2 CR in a truck at high altitude vs. your 60403.
 
Let me clarify.

The lifters have no problems pumping up, and if I set a .040 pre-load, they start holding the valves open around 4000rpm........ The thinner the oil I use, the better it gets. I have been running them right at Zero so the thing is driveable.

Could be the beehives huh? God I hate to change springs. (I asked Lunati if the comp springs would work, and they said sure, buuuut I wonder if they were trying to get rid of me!........)

Funny thing is, I have done this before..... Same cam, same springs, and the thing revs too the moon. (On a 360)
Thats why it got my stumped.

I'm going to try a set of anti pump ups, I guess. Maybe I just got two crrappy set of lifters?

If that don't work, it's gonna be solid.
 
I dont think .050 with of hole is letting the lifter stay pumped up. I use .040 for a solid lifter application. For a hydraulic I would have drastically enlarged that, preferably not run them at all and gone solid, or made sure the lifters at least had the wide groove around them for oil to hold. I dont think there's enough oil pressure and volume getting to the lifters right now.
 
At 1/2 lift or so, that hole is blocked off. You could try grooving the lifter bores in line with the holes too, just dont go clear out the top or bottom... The problem would be you will need a decent width groove because you cant go deep...
 
hi, I think you're right about not enough volume of oil to keep lifter filled.
the factory oil passage had a window where the lifter ran to provide more then enough oil to lifters. the bushing has covered that up.
 
dodgetkboy78 said:
But....... If they aren't getting enough oil, why would they be pumping up?????
Click to expand...

No way to know unless you're inside the engine. :) The big "tell" is when you say it runs better with lighter oil.

Good thing you're not running Magnum heads as the valve train may gotten smoked by now.
 
Have the lifters pumped up & knocked the retainer out, or partially out?
Seen it, done it, just throwing it out there.

I am also ready for a solid cam, I think the fast rate cams, with thier high spring pressure really put a load on hydraulic lifters.
 
Yeah, talked to Ron Iskendarian........ They gonna grind me a cam close to the voodoo, and send me some mech lifters, and pushrods.
Little more duration on the intake, little less on the exhaust.

Screw them damn lifters.

Just checked my notes, the hole is .060, I swear that should feed the lifter, after all, once filled with oil, they just should need a tiny bit to retain pressure, right?
The backside of the thin oil, is that they all sink when sitting, and clatter like a big dog when started, even after a few minutes. But they quiet in less than ten seconds.

The whole thing is baffling to me, I should'a just went mild solid roller, damnit.
 
IMO, the issue is, depending on where the hole it placed, the motion of the lifter will raise and block off that hole... So you have no real pressurized oil flowing into the lifter. It has to be able to flow constantly. Your's cant. It's not the lifters, its the bushings.
 
Well, that makes sense, except for they are pumping up.......... Kinda strange huh?
I have never bushed lifters then ran a hyd lifter, this was the first, I guess it just don't work.
Solid tappet, it is!
Just for future reference, if anyone else wants to use bushed lifter bores with hyd lifters, tell them NO! LOL
 
lol... they will pump up when the pressure reaches the groove and oiling hole in the lifter, but they will also bleed down when the lifter is up on the lobe, and more so at higher rpms. And, no, I dont even recommend that...lol.
 
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