Looking for more pep off the line

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Can you run a compression check for us as well? We ought to make sure the engine is healthy first.

Yeah the cam sucks. But it's pretty small, hard to imagine picking up loads of low end from a cam change. I do agree that you'll be able to pick some up but I wouldn't expect it to be a game changer by itself.

Bump that initial timing up per recommendation it'll help.

Headers will help build more low end to midrange grunt. That's going to be one of the biggest changes you can make for cheap. I second the summit headers suggestion. They have nice thick flanges unlike the hedman or hooker cheapo headers.

People don't want to spend money on decent torque converters and gearing but this is probably the single biggest area you could change and would transform the car from mundane to monster.

If you're on a tight budget, this is the order I'd go in:

Compression check
Correct timing curve
Summit headers
Edelbrock air gap or similar Intake manifold/carb
Converter
Gears
Cam upgrade (to match your new converter and gears)

Do this stuff and it should hit pretty hard in the launch.
The engine is freshly rebuilt by me, probably 60ish miles on it right now. I mentioned it to rumblefish, I have power steering so running headers is going to be a challenge. I would like to get a set of Doug's when the budget permits. For now, I can put on a bigger carb and work with ignition tuning more.
 
I'm currently running stock ignition, a regular distributor with a blue ignition module. I did put some medium springs on the weights. The ballast resistor is bypassed. I didn't degree the cam, just lined up the dots and sent it.
There you go. Time to learn.
Chrysler ignition modules still require the ballast resistor. HEI and Capacitive discharge ignitions provide their own control for coil current but that's not what's on your car. So it needs a 0.5 Ohm resistor to protect the coil.

Medium springs have now messed up the advance curve. I can say that even having no idea what brand of spring or what distributor they were intended for. The primary spring provides enough force to keep the timing from advancing until above idle speed. As shown in the link I provided above, minor adjustment to the spring force is available. The factory primary springs all have relatively low spring rate, allowing a very fast advance from off-idle until 1400 to 1800 rpm. There is a lot of off the line performance right in there. The secondary or long looped spring then slows the centrifgal advance because the combustion is getting more efficient with more heat and faster burn rate.

edit:
Link from above: See post 17 for adjustment to initial force (rpm advance begins) Distributor curve help needed
 
Last edited:
With a Holley 4150/60.
First. Always check fuel level in both bowls before getting into the tune.
Most have sight plugs on the bowl. Traditional sight plugs are located so the fuel level should be just at the bottom of the plug (primary) and a little lower on the secondary bowl. New big clear window plugs aer usually set near the middle.

With carb off the engine check the primary transfer slot exposure under the throttle plates at idle are in the range of .020 - .040"
If it gets out of range, then there will be a delay or bog while driving or accelerating as the throttle opens. explanation here
You can check with feeler gage or drill bits.
View attachment 1716137278
The drill bit is next to the transfer slot.
The hole is the idle port.
Write down how many 1/4 turns in of the idle speed screw from just touching gets .020, 030, and .040.
Then you'll always know how far open the throttles are without removing the carb from the intake.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Tuning for Performance.
This requires systematic trial and error to improve performance. Performance defined as power, torque and engine efficiency.
To do this work with steady state conditions first, and ones where power and engine efficiency can be compared with something other than seat of pants.

Start at the idle and work up.
Idle and off idle are your foundations. If its crappy at idle then the engine is going to have to clear up before it can respond to additional throttle.
Performance here is going to be demonstrated by running fairly clean exhaust output and how little throttle is needed
(manual) to get into first gear without stalling.
(automatic) lose the least rpm when placed in drive.
Alternatively have the best vacuum at a given rpm in drive.
Work with initial timing, idle speed screw (transfer slots), and idle mixture screws.

Next confirm off-idle has good performance by very slowly accelerating from stop with no hesitation. This test minimizes the role of the pump shot and focus on the idle circuit's begining of transition.
If that's good, then test more normal acceleration (for public streets) from stop to make sure the pump shot is not too much or too little for this basic job.

Then you can test out steady driving at various speeds. The fuel ratio at steady interstate highway speeds is determined by main jet and its air bleeds. Local highways is partial or completely idle circuit (transition slot, idle feed restriction and idle aiir blleed).
If its too lean, it will surge. Slow down and take it back to garage. Increase primary jets.

If you have access to the strip or dyno you can test wide open throttle in 3 or 4th. AFR is controlled by the jets plus power valve channel restrictions. Change jets for the best mph through the lights.
If primary jetting for best power is different than jetting for best interstate highway mpg, adjust the power valve restrictions.

All the above tests are effected by timing. If you change timing at a given rpm and condition, then retest before change fuel mixture for that condition.

Once all that is tuned, then concentrate on transition conditions. They are:
opening the throttle quickly from low rpm (pump shot).
power valve opening point.

Reality is you may have to go out of sequence. You will almost certainly have to make repeats. How many repeats depends on how much interest and persistance you have.

Good luck!
I appreciate your detailed write-up on tuning. That drillbit trick is genius, I would not have thought of that.
 
My converter stall is 1600-2000, it's listed as street/strip. I do have a thermoquad I was considering rebuilding and putting on my engine, I believe it's 800 cfm.
I'm all over using a TQ, set up correctly they have great throttle response
 
I just got up, so I read it twice and still might have missed it..... But how did you measure "lacking off the line" ? An ET slip 60 ft time? Expectations - 2 inch wheelie?? None of us know if the tune is right or not because we have nothing to go off of except your expectations.
The best way I can describe it is I have to lay into the pedal to get going from a stop. Now I'm not looking for wheelies or a fast 60-foot on this car, I just think a V8 car should have some more pep. I am a novice when it comes to tuning so that is probably part of the issue.
 
There you go. Time to learn.
Chrysler ignition modules still require the ballast resistor. HEI and Capacitive discharge ignitions provide their own control for coil current but that's not what's on your car. So it needs a 0.5 Ohm resistor to protect the coil.

Medium springs have now messed up the advance curve. I can say that even having no idea what brand of spring or what distributor they were intended for. The primary spring provides enough force to keep the timing from advancing until above idle speed. As shown in the link I provided above, minor adjustment to the spring force is available. The factory primary springs all have relatively low spring rate, allowing a very fast advance from off-idle until 1400 to 1800 rpm. There is a lot of off the line performance right in there. The secondary or long looped spring then slows the centrifgal advance because the combustion is getting more efficient with more heat and faster burn rate.

edit:
Link from above: See post 17 for adjustment to initial force (rpm advance begins) Distributor curve help needed
I agree with you on the ballast resistor, but volts at the coil are 3-4 with the resistor, 7-8 when bypassed. Now I tried to set everything up as close to stock as I could, but maybe I missed something. I looked at your pictures in that other post, I had those same springs in my distributor. I thought that long-looped spring was wrong, but I guess that's how they are supposed to be, whoops.
 
I agree with you on the ballast resistor, but volts at the coil are 3-4 with the resistor, 7-8 when bypassed.
I generally discourage relying on voltage measurements at the coil because they will vary depending on conditions.
For example, Engine off, key in run.
Power supply voltage will be roughly 12 if the battery is in good shape.
Current at coil will be much under. How much so depends on the connections and the alterator field draw.
Also with the ECU ignition, its like the points are closed all the time when key is in run, engine off. So current flows thorugh the resistor full time, making it hotter (and higher resistance) than when running.

When driving, power is supplied at roughly 14 Volts, current flows through the resistor on/off. So running there is a higher voltage supplied to the system plus cooler resistor - and more so at higher speeds.

Some things to check.
Engine off. Resistor should be .5 to .6 ohms
Engine running. Voltage supplied to resistor compared to overall system voltage should nearly the same. Alternator output voltage should be around 14 V, and the voltage at the resistor should be within a 1/2 volt of that.

Its best to do these measurements when the battery fully charged. The ammeter will show whether its recharged or not. It should be finished recharging within a few minutes of starting. If not, charge the battery on a charger and try again.
 
I generally discourage relying on voltage measurements at the coil because they will vary depending on conditions.
For example, Engine off, key in run.
Power supply voltage will be roughly 12 if the battery is in good shape.
Current at coil will be much under. How much so depends on the connections and the alterator field draw.
Also with the ECU ignition, its like the points are closed all the time when key is in run, engine off. So current flows thorugh the resistor full time, making it hotter (and higher resistance) than when running.

When driving, power is supplied at roughly 14 Volts, current flows through the resistor on/off. So running there is a higher voltage supplied to the system plus cooler resistor - and more so at higher speeds.

Some things to check.
Engine off. Resistor should be .5 to .6 ohms
Engine running. Voltage supplied to resistor compared to overall system voltage should nearly the same. Alternator output voltage should be around 14 V, and the voltage at the resistor should be within a 1/2 volt of that.

Its best to do these measurements when the battery fully charged. The ammeter will show whether its recharged or not. It should be finished recharging within a few minutes of starting. If not, charge the battery on a charger and try again.
My battery is brand new and sits a 12.4 volts, when idling the alternator puts out 13+ volts, and when revving it gets up to 14+ volts. I'll run a resistance check on my resistor. Unfortunately, the ammeter is bypassed so I just have a voltage gauge, it was getting concerningly hot.
 
The best way I can describe it is I have to lay into the pedal to get going from a stop. Now I'm not looking for wheelies or a fast 60-foot on this car, I just think a V8 car should have some more pep. I am a novice when it comes to tuning so that is probably part of the issue.
sticky brakes ?? Parking brake used and didn't release? Just thoughts... should have zero issues leaving a stop on a touch of the gas
 
I'm currently running stock ignition, a regular distributor with a blue ignition module. I did put some medium springs on the weights. The ballast resistor is bypassed. I didn't degree the cam, just lined up the dots and sent it.
Ok. Honesty is good. lol Well, sans ripping into the timing cover, lets get you a better ignition curve. I can see right now the two medium springs are having some effect. What "I" do is put one medium and one light spring in. Almost always, this gets the "all in" rpm just right. Normally it's all in by 2500-2800 using that method. What you have now is probably all in by 3200-3500. Also, you need to find some way to limit the total mechanical advance. I like the timing limiter plate by FBO. You can get one here: How to limit mechanical advance in a mopar distributor, tuning for street, strip or all out racing, cure that rich stinky idle, win races
A good starting point for you would be the 16 degree slots. That means you would set the initial timing at 18 degrees and the limiter plate on the 14 slots would give you 34 degrees total. With the light and medium springs it would be all in by well under 3000. Your engine has some compression, so I recommend starting conservatively with timing. Normally, I recommend starting at 20 initial......yours might can stand it, but 18 is better and maybe even 16 and use 18 degree slots. I think there's a lot of room left in the tune. I don't agree with swapping out big, expensive parts yet. You need to optimize what you have NOW and then decide whether you want to make big changes. If you feel froggy, I would recommend degreeing that camshaft. As of now, you don't know WHERE it is and it could be several degrees retarded. You just don't know. "Dot to dot" means nothing in the world of slack machining tolerances. I've seen dot to dot 12 degrees retarded before. Also as someone else mentioned, if you can get a compression tester and give us some numbers there, that would be a big indicator as to what you need for tuning.
 
I'm currently running manifolds, I have power steering on my car and it looks like it would be a big fight to get headers on there. Eventually, I would like to get a set of Doug's headers when the budget permits it. The summit cam I'm running was on sale which is partly why I bought it, I wasn't sure what to get as this is my first engine build so I stuck with something close to stock. Might have to go with a Comp XE268 or something later.
I think they're getting you off track already. IMO, you should optimize what you HAVE. A camshaft change is not going to magically unlock 50HP down low. But good tuning might. I would wait on any big changes. But, it's not my money or car so do what you want with it and good luck.
 
I think they're getting you off track already. IMO, you should optimize what you HAVE. A camshaft change is not going to magically unlock 50HP down low. But good tuning might. I would wait on any big changes. But, it's not my money or car so do what you want with it and good luck.
I agree wholeheartedly, old racers quip, "run what you brung"
 
My battery is brand new and sits a 12.4 volts, when idling the alternator puts out 13+ volts, and when revving it gets up to 14+ volts. I'll run a resistance check on my resistor. Unfortunately, the ammeter is bypassed so I just have a voltage gauge, it was getting concerningly hot.
Argh. Too much bad info from the 'net and earlier myths.
Chrysler actually knew how to build cars in spite of all the experts who think otherwise.
Sorry for the rant, but we've all been caught up in this stuff so its not directed at you, but the situation in general.

Lets break this up.
New and 12.4 Volts means its not charged. Voltage alone is only a clue too the state of charge (how much energy it has stored), but 12.4 volts is low.

The alternator output capacity following the rpm is normal for an alternator. BUT and its a big BUT, your bits of info tell us more.
1. The fact it stays around 14 volts at higher rpms (doesn't continue to climb with rpm) indicates the regulator is working.
2. Low voltage at slow idle means the alternator is maxed out or the field current is too weak. Once the battery is recharged, the only loads at idle should be ignition and alternator field. Thats 5-6 amps with a correct alternator and maybe 10 amps with a replacement alternator that has a low resistance/high draw rotor in it.

Your volt meter should not be getting hot. It should not be in the circuit where the ammeter was. It should be connected to a switched circuit (can tap in on the switched portion of the fusebox).

If the voltmeter is located correctly, then it would be worth checking for resistance in the power circuits using voltage drop method.
First. Charge the battery on a charger. If you have to buy a charger, so be it. Make sure it can do a slow charge (2 or 3 amps).

Voltage comparisons can be made between any point and ground. Or between two points (as illustrated below).
Either way, current must be flowing (electrons moving) for there to be a voltage drop through resistance. No current, no drop. = test invalid.

This test is for voltage drop in alternator feed and run circuit through the ignition switch to the ballast resistor.
1693843949525.png


Here's an example of checking for resistance between the battery and the mainsplice
1693844174016.png


Checking for resistance between the battery positive and the mainsplice using two measurements to ground.
This method will also include voltage differences (resistance) in the grounding.
1693844580801.png
 
Last edited:
Ok. Honesty is good. lol Well, sans ripping into the timing cover, lets get you a better ignition curve. I can see right now the two medium springs are having some effect. What "I" do is put one medium and one light spring in. Almost always, this gets the "all in" rpm just right. Normally it's all in by 2500-2800 using that method. What you have now is probably all in by 3200-3500. Also, you need to find some way to limit the total mechanical advance. I like the timing limiter plate by FBO. You can get one here: How to limit mechanical advance in a mopar distributor, tuning for street, strip or all out racing, cure that rich stinky idle, win races
A good starting point for you would be the 16 degree slots. That means you would set the initial timing at 18 degrees and the limiter plate on the 14 slots would give you 34 degrees total. With the light and medium springs it would be all in by well under 3000. Your engine has some compression, so I recommend starting conservatively with timing. Normally, I recommend starting at 20 initial......yours might can stand it, but 18 is better and maybe even 16 and use 18 degree slots. I think there's a lot of room left in the tune. I don't agree with swapping out big, expensive parts yet. You need to optimize what you have NOW and then decide whether you want to make big changes. If you feel froggy, I would recommend degreeing that camshaft. As of now, you don't know WHERE it is and it could be several degrees retarded. You just don't know. "Dot to dot" means nothing in the world of slack machining tolerances. I've seen dot to dot 12 degrees retarded before. Also as someone else mentioned, if you can get a compression tester and give us some numbers there, that would be a big indicator as to what you need for tuning.
Well you know I disagree whole heartedly with that approach to the advance curve.
LOL

Lemme add more.
The problem off-line is the initial, and the begining of the curve.
Fix that first.
 
Ok. Honesty is good. lol Well, sans ripping into the timing cover, lets get you a better ignition curve. I can see right now the two medium springs are having some effect. What "I" do is put one medium and one light spring in. Almost always, this gets the "all in" rpm just right. Normally it's all in by 2500-2800 using that method. Wha tyou have now is probably all in by 3200-3500. Also, you need to find some way to limit the total mechanical advance. I like the timing limiter plate by FBO. You can get one here: How to limit mechanical advance in a mopar distributor, tuning for street, strip or all out racing, cure that rich stinky idle, win races
A good starting point for you would be the 16 degree slots. That means you would set the initial timing at 18 degrees and the limiter plate on the 14 slots would give you 34 degrees total. With the light and medium springs it would be all in by well under 3000. Your engine has some compression, so I recommend starting conservatively with timing. Normally, I recommend starting at 20 initial......yours might can stand it, but 18 is better and maybe even 16 and use 18 degree slots. I think there's a lot of room left in the tune. I don't agree with swapping out big, expensive parts yet. You need to optimize what you have NOW and then decide whether you want to make big changes. If you feel froggy, I would recommend degreeing that camshaft. As of now, you don't know WHERE it is and it could be several degrees retarded. You just don't know. "Dot to dot" means nothing in the world of slack machining tolerances. I've seen dot to dot 12 degrees retarded before. Also as someone else mentioned, if you can get a compression tester and give us some numbers there, that would be a big indicator as to what you need for tuning.
The timing definitely needs more work, I am a novice at tuning so it's a safe bet that it needs a solid tune-up. I just started driving my car again after about 10 months of work, so I'm not looking to tear apart my motor just yet or throw parts at it. Like you said, I need to optimize what I have. I'll look into that limiter plate.
 
Tuning is very important, watch any dyno session before and after setting it up big power differences depending how far off the tune is.
 
Argh. Too much bad info from the 'net and earlier myths.
Chrysler actually knew how to build cars in spite of all the experts who think otherwise.
Sorry for the rant, but we've all been caught up in this stuff so its not directed at you, but the situation in general.

Lets break this up.
New and 12.4 Volts means its not charged. Voltage alone is only a clue too the state of charge (how much energy it has stored), but 12.4 volts is low.

The alternator output capacity following the rpm is normal for an alternator. BUT and its a big BUT, your bits of info tell us more.
1. The fact it stays around 14 volts at higher rpms (doesn't continue to climb with rpm) indicates the regulator is working.
2. Low voltage at slow idle means the alternator is maxed out or the field current is too weak. Once the battery is recharged, the only loads at idle should be ignition and alternator field. Thats 5-6 amps with a corrent alternator and maybe 10 amps with a replacement alternator that has a low resistance/high draw rotor in it.

Your volt meter should not be getting hot. It should not be in the circuit where the ammeter was. It should be connected to a switched circuit (can tap in on the switched portion of the fusebox).

If the voltmeter is located currently, then it would be worth checking for resistance using voltage drop method.
First. Charge the battery on a charger. If you have to buy a charger, so be it. Make sure it can do a slow charge (2 or 3 amps).

Voltage comparisons can be made between any point and ground. Or between two points (as illustrated below).
Either way, current must be flowing (electrons moving) for there to be a voltage drop through resistance. No current, no drop. = test invalid.

View attachment 1716137379

Here's an example of checking for resistance betweenthe battery and the mainsplice
View attachment 1716137380

Checking for resistance between the battery positive and the mainsplice using two measurements to ground.
This method will also include votlage differences (resistance) in the grounding.
View attachment 1716137383
I believe I misspoke, I have a voltage gauge on its own circuit, it's not wired into the ammeter circuit. The ammeter is just bypassed, the plastic face was all melted and foggy. And I have read that the ammeter is a potential fire hazard so I opted to neutralize it for the time being. I will eventually do the MAD wiring trick so I can have a functioning ammeter.
 
Tuning is very important, watch any dyno session before and after setting it up big power differences depending how far off the tune is.
I'm a fan of the Engine Masters show, having a good tune is important for making power and optimizing an engine. I'm a novice at tuning but I'm doing my best to learn how to become better.
 
sticky brakes ?? Parking brake used and didn't release? Just thoughts... should have zero issues leaving a stop on a touch of the gas
The parking brake works fine, I don't think it is brake drag but I will go back and check my brakes again.
 
Well you know I disagree whole heartedly with that approach to the advance curve.
LOL

Lemme add more.
The problem off-line is the initial, and the begining of the curve.
Fix that first.
Well sure, but what's he do about total? He'll be into detonation without limiting the total Our approaches are different, but the end results with both will be the same.
 
I believe I misspoke, I have a voltage gauge on its own circuit, it's not wired into the ammeter circuit. The ammeter is just bypassed, the plastic face was all melted and foggy. And I have read that the ammeter is a potential fire hazard so I opted to neutralize it for the time being. I will eventually do the MAD wiring trick so I can have a functioning ammeter.
That should work then. Skip the crazy method. If you want an ammeter, use one of the methods Chrysler used to split the current and using grommets to bring the battery circuit wires through the firewall for 'heavy duty fleet" and rear defroster grid cars.

If the voltmeter is not switched off with the key switch, that can be a slow drain. Other than that, its fine.

Melted ammeter could have just been windshield leak, but could also it may have been some high current that damaged other connections in the circuit. Voltage drop tests above will reveal that.
 
The parking brake works fine, I don't think it is brake drag but I will go back and check my brakes again.
just put it in gear and let off the brake pedal idling, it should creep forward
 
Well sure, but what's he do about total?
Hence the need to measure the timing vs rpm.

I hear ya though. Skipping that step and going blind into 4000 rpm plus at full load would be super risky.
 
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