Magnum Exhaust/Borgeson Power Steering

[b5cuda]

Does anyone know whether the new Borgeson p.s. unit clears the Magnum driver's side manifold? Hoping one of you guys who messed with Magnum x-manifolds in a-bodies can answer this question. Thanks!
Bill

 

[R3dplanet]

I'll find out soon. I finally ponied up and bought the new Borgeson PS unit, but it has yet to arrive after two weeks. While I'm in there, I'm quite curious to see if a later exhaust manifold can fit. When I tried this before, the '92 Dakota manifold I was using came nowhere near to fitting due to the huge stock PS gear. Assuming the new Borgeson unit eventually arrives, I'll see what happens and report back.

-marcus

 

[Woods74]

LOL good luck. You sure can't with a regular box, what makes you think you can with it? And why would you want to? Spending 600+ on a box, might as well buy some Doug's headers or something and be done with it since your rich rollin'. In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[b5cuda]

Great Marcus - please let me know how it works! I already have a pair of mag manifolds (don't want to run headers) and figure not having to buy a pair of 340 manifolds offsets the higher cost of a borgeson unit. Following with interest,
Bill

 

[R3dplanet]

Okay, the new Borgeson power steering gear arrived today. I'll do my best to tear into my car this weekend and see what happens, but it might take a week or so to actually know how the fitment goes depending on my work schedule. And the weather. And a thousand other variables.

-marcus

 

[Treblig]

RAGTOPFURY did it with a regular manual steering box!! If the borgeson P/S steering unit is the same size or smaller than the manual it should work.

treblig

 

[Treblig]

And these guys did it also.
I'm not sure why anybody would say that it can't be done????? The only things that actually might make impossible is a "clutch" and or "column shift" but otherwise "believing is seeing"
treblig

 

[R3dplanet]

Peeps,

I fully expect that this won't work, but I don't see why I shouldn't give it a try. You see, as a technical forum I believe that our responsibility is to find what works and what doesn't and report back with empirical results. However, sometimes these forums get absolutely clogged with "Sure, that'll work. I've not done it, but yeah, totally dude." This has happened to me routinely enough to me that I now realize I have to really cherry pick my information. Alternatively, we get a great deal of "LOL that thar won't work because LULZ," which is equally unhelpful. More often, the exhaust forum is filled with "I don't know how to use the search function, nor have I looked at any posts, but what kind of exhaust system can I cram into my early-A with power steering?" despite having been answered about a thousand times: Doug's, 273 manifolds, TTI, or fender well headers.

Hoping to contribute the tiniest little bit of information for those in the same position, I'm going to find out.

For the sake of completeness, here's my rationale. First off, I've seen in person the '92 Magnum/Dakota/Whatever manifolds work perfectly well on manual steering early-A cars, so I dismissed the ignorant claim that it has never before worked. Next, the experiment is simply to determine if a modern manifold - one that I already have laying in my garage - will fit, thus costing no money and about two minutes of time. When the Borgeson PS box discussion originally came up, many of us wondered if this could be done but to my knowledge no one has said one way or the other. Last, as the owner of an early-A with a 360ci motor, I understand that my only real option is to clog up what's left of my already shoe-horned engine bay and spend a grand on Doug's headers. That or continue to choke up my engine with 273 manifolds.

So let's add this up.

Benefits:
1. An experiment where valuable knowledge can be imparted to others, regardless of outcome.
2. Zero cost, minimal time.
3. If it works, it's an excellent method to bypass the expense and undesirability of headers. If it doesn't, then we know where we stand: Doug's or 273 manifolds.

Detriments:
Some anonymous Internet dude can laugh himself silly.

As you can see, the benefits outweigh the detriments, so the experiment shall proceed.

Hugs,
Marcus

 

[Woods74]

Cool, good luck with it.

 

[Treblig]

Peeps,

I fully expect that this won't work, but I don't see why I shouldn't give it a try. You see, as a technical forum I believe that our responsibility is to find what works and what doesn't and report back with empirical results. However, sometimes these forums get absolutely clogged with "Sure, that'll work. I've not done it, but yeah, totally dude." This has happened to me routinely enough to me that I now realize I have to really cherry pick my information. Alternatively, we get a great deal of "LOL that thar won't work because LULZ," which is equally unhelpful. More often, the exhaust forum is filled with "I don't know how to use the search function, nor have I looked at any posts, but what kind of exhaust system can I cram into my early-A with power steering?" despite having been answered about a thousand times: Doug's, 273 manifolds, TTI, or fender well headers.

Hoping to contribute the tiniest little bit of information for those in the same position, I'm going to find out.

For the sake of completeness, here's my rationale. First off, I've seen in person the '92 Magnum/Dakota/Whatever manifolds work perfectly well on manual steering early-A cars, so I dismissed the ignorant claim that it has never before worked. Next, the experiment is simply to determine if a modern manifold - one that I already have laying in my garage - will fit, thus costing no money and about two minutes of time. When the Borgeson PS box discussion originally came up, many of us wondered if this could be done but to my knowledge no one has said one way or the other. Last, as the owner of an early-A with a 360ci motor, I understand that my only real option is to clog up what's left of my already shoe-horned engine bay and spend a grand on Doug's headers. That or continue to choke up my engine with 273 manifolds.

So let's add this up.

Benefits:
1. An experiment where valuable knowledge can be imparted to others, regardless of outcome.
2. Zero cost, minimal time.
3. If it works, it's an excellent method to bypass the expense and undesirability of headers. If it doesn't, then we know where we stand: Doug's or 273 manifolds.

Detriments:
Some anonymous Internet dude can laugh himself silly.

As you can see, the benefits outweigh the detriments, so the experiment shall proceed.

Hugs,
Marcus

Well articulated "R3dplanet"!!! To make things even more interesting...just because other members have tried and failed doesn't mean that one "really crazy" member might succeed!! I tried and failed.....but I haven't given up!!!!!!!!!1 As my part in trying to help others with this problem, I've been machining 360 manifolds to match the 340 manifold so that members who can't find a fix for their problem have an alternative. I have no idea what the borgeson steering unit costs (or how much labor to install) so I've tried to make my alternative as low in cost as possible. I have a matched pair of two of the LARGEST cast iron manifolds made that will fit the a-body with actual 2 1/4" outlets. You can't buy any other pair of cast iron manifolds with 2 1/4" outlets anywhere else (except a very expensive pair of 340 manifolds). I'm selling this pair (see pics) for only $290 plus shipping. Like I said, I don't know how much the borgeson unit costs but it can't be any cheaper than my alternative.
I own a '69 Barracuda and after I came up with this alternative (with the help of others) I decided to try and make it easier for others by making more of these. I don't think you can beat the price unless you already have a pair of 340s manifolds sitting in your garage or you have a real good friend who will let you have a pair very, very cheap!! This is the only pair I have besides extra "machined" 2 1/4" mag manifolds, so when this pair is gone it's back to the drawing board!!!
Either way, good luck and know that there are alternatives that are not that expensive.
"NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

PS - I haven't advertised this pair of manifolds because I wanted to sand blast and paint the 340 manifold before advertising. But the 340 manifold has such a nice patina, almost like it's never been used, so I haven't decided if I should sand blast or not. Until then they are still for sale!!

treblig

 

[Treblig]

Peeps,

I fully expect that this won't work, but I don't see why I shouldn't give it a try. You see, as a technical forum I believe that our responsibility is to find what works and what doesn't and report back with empirical results. However, sometimes these forums get absolutely clogged with "Sure, that'll work. I've not done it, but yeah, totally dude." This has happened to me routinely enough to me that I now realize I have to really cherry pick my information. Alternatively, we get a great deal of "LOL that thar won't work because LULZ," which is equally unhelpful. More often, the exhaust forum is filled with "I don't know how to use the search function, nor have I looked at any posts, but what kind of exhaust system can I cram into my early-A with power steering?" despite having been answered about a thousand times: Doug's, 273 manifolds, TTI, or fender well headers.

Hoping to contribute the tiniest little bit of information for those in the same position, I'm going to find out.

For the sake of completeness, here's my rationale. First off, I've seen in person the '92 Magnum/Dakota/Whatever manifolds work perfectly well on manual steering early-A cars, so I dismissed the ignorant claim that it has never before worked. Next, the experiment is simply to determine if a modern manifold - one that I already have laying in my garage - will fit, thus costing no money and about two minutes of time. When the Borgeson PS box discussion originally came up, many of us wondered if this could be done but to my knowledge no one has said one way or the other. Last, as the owner of an early-A with a 360ci motor, I understand that my only real option is to clog up what's left of my already shoe-horned engine bay and spend a grand on Doug's headers. That or continue to choke up my engine with 273 manifolds.

So let's add this up.

Benefits:
1. An experiment where valuable knowledge can be imparted to others, regardless of outcome.
2. Zero cost, minimal time.
3. If it works, it's an excellent method to bypass the expense and undesirability of headers. If it doesn't, then we know where we stand: Doug's or 273 manifolds.

Detriments:
Some anonymous Internet dude can laugh himself silly.

As you can see, the benefits outweigh the detriments, so the experiment shall proceed.

Hugs,
Marcus

Any word on the borgeson steering box???

Treblig

 

[R3dplanet]

It's sitting in a box on my porch. If the weather holds, I dive into it this weekend.

-marcus

 

[R3dplanet]

Ugh. What a horrible job. It took all day to remove all the junk from the driver's side of the engine and I had to jack up the motor to wrestle out the old power steering gear. With the new Borgeson unit in place I'll have to shim up the engine a half inch on the driver's side just to clear the new gear, even with Schumacher mounts. The sad part is that the '92 Dakota manifold almost fits. I think it would clear the gear itself but the input and output hoses sit directly under the lowest hump of the manifold. The manifold only sits about 1/2" too high. If I thought I could just grind away that much I would. Ah well. It was worthwhile to see if it could work. The good news is that if I end up with headers there will be all kinds of clearance for them. But since I dislike headers I'll just go back to the 273 manifolds, choked as they are.

Treblig,
Looking at your 3614368-2 manifolds, the lower center hump is significantly shorter than the '92 Dakota manifold. It could be that that manifold might work.

 

[R3dplanet]

Hmm... It occurs to me that the high curve of the 340 Hi-Po manifold might actually work with this setup. But I sold off my set of those a couple of years back. Crap.

 

[Treblig]

Ugh. What a horrible job. It took all day to remove all the junk from the driver's side of the engine and I had to jack up the motor to wrestle out the old power steering gear. With the new Borgeson unit in place I'll have to shim up the engine a half inch on the driver's side just to clear the new gear, even with Schumacher mounts. The sad part is that the '92 Dakota manifold almost fits. I think it would clear the gear itself but the input and output hoses sit directly under the lowest hump of the manifold. The manifold only sits about 1/2" too high. If I thought I could just grind away that much I would. Ah well. It was worthwhile to see if it could work. The good news is that if I end up with headers there will be all kinds of clearance for them. But since I dislike headers I'll just go back to the 273 manifolds, choked as they are.
Treblig,
Looking at your 3614368-2 manifolds, the lower center hump is significantly shorter than the '92 Dakota manifold. It could be that that manifold might work.

I own a '69 Barracuda (318 w/P/S). I currently have a 340 manifold on the driver's side. It clears everything with no problem so I know for a fact that the 340 will clear. I modify the magnum manifolds to have the same basic exhaust opening as the 340 manifolds and I sell them. I currently have a modified passenger's magnum manifold and this 340 manifold for sale (haven't advertised yet). I also don't like headers and went through a lot of trouble to find the right combination and decided to make more and sell them to others who "don't like headers". I don't remember if you said that you already had a magnum manifold on the passenger's side??? If you do already have a magnum then you could buy the pair that I have (modified magnum and 340) then sell your "unmodified" magnum on FABO to make it a better deal. Members buy unmodified magnums all the time to save money. They also buy stock manifolds all the time. I sell my manifolds for $290 (pair) plus shipping. You can compare the price to a set of 340 manifolds currently for sale on FABO (yesterday) for $500 plus shipping!!! I also know that a good set of headers cost way more than $290.

If you could sell your unmodified magnums for $75 and your 273 manifolds for $75 on FABO and buy what I have, you'd have a sweet set of high flow manifolds for well under $200. That would be a great deal!! But of course it's up to you, I'll be advertising this set soon so let me know. The last two pics are of these manifolds (The ones I sell) in my car.


Treblig

 

[R3dplanet]

Well, it's apples and oranges as far as your '69 is concerned. I'm trying to find a solution to the early-A bodies, basically '63-'66. The engine bay in your '69 has way, way more wiggle room in it.

 

[Treblig]

Well, it's apples and oranges as far as your '69 is concerned. I'm trying to find a solution to the early-A bodies, basically '63-'66. The engine bay in your '69 has way, way more wiggle room in it.

Actually Rusty Rat Rod had a 340 driver's manifold on his '65 a-body (I believe) and I know I have seen pics here on FABO of the magnum manifold on an early a passenger's side. If I remember correctly they had to grind the casting number and the pentastar off the passenger's side to get a little clearance. So yes, it has been done and yes it can be done.

Treblig

 

[Treblig]

Read this thread and you'll see!!

Treblig


http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=109176&highlight=magnum+manifolds&page=2

 

[b5cuda]

Hey Marcus, thanks for taking the time and effort to experiment and to share the results - sorry it didn't work out, but you sure helped others! You were working on an early-A body... do you know whether the Borgeson box and Magnum combo will clear on a later a-body - say '67 and newer?

 

[Treblig]

Well, it's apples and oranges as far as your '69 is concerned. I'm trying to find a solution to the early-A bodies, basically '63-'66. The engine bay in your '69 has way, way more wiggle room in it.

Actually there have been many members who used the magnum passenger and 340 driver on the '65 and '66 a bodies. You are correct that 67-69 have more room but if you use the 340 on the driver's side (from what I have read) it should work. RustyRatRod used the 340 driver's side on his 65 valiant. He said it was a close fit but it worked. He also used Shumacher mounts and said that the mounts might have raised the engine a little. Also old mushy motor mounts probably don't help as they let the engine sit lower than normal. I can't speak to '63/'64 a bodies. I have two sets of the magnum (actual 2 1/4") passenger and matching 340 driver for sale right now!! At $290 plus shipping it's a bargain compared to a really good set of headers ($500-$1000) or a matched set of 340 manifolds ($375-$550)!! It's a choice we all have to make or stick with the 1 5/8" stock manifold.


Treblig